I can't understand why they just cant agree upon a two-state solution. Its the most fair and equitable. Somewhere along the Gaza Strip and West bank.

In the meantime, I get annoyed how any slight criticsm of Israeli's is framed as anti-semitism, EVERY TIME.

sebstar wrote:Israelies are essentially occupying what they believe to be their rightful land --- through military force. I'm not condoning acts of terrorism at all, but lets be real --- they feel bullied. You would too.

I can't understand why they just cant agree upon a two-state solution. Its the most fair and equitable. Somewhere along the Gaza Strip and West bank.

In the meantime, I get annoyed how any slight criticsm of Israeli's is framed as anti-semitism, EVERY TIME.

Agreed. It's not anti-semetic to not agree with the actions a nation takes.

I also get annoyed how Israel can do no wrong. Every violent action they take is justified because they are "threatened" by their neighbor. Meanwhile their neighbor has no army and its people fight with rocks. Terrorists exist everywhere, even here. We find some eventually just like they do. Killing innocents and expanding further into land that isn't yours and using the fact that you're "threatened" as a justification for this is wrong.

Israel is a loose cannon in the Middle East. They answer to noone and care about nothing. And the world just sits around and lets it happen.

I read somewhere that Israel shows restraint. Israel is just as much a terrorist to Palestine as any other terrorist organization is to the rest of the world. Israel occupies land owned by Palestine and continues expanding further into Palestine with new settlements when they not be and have been TOLD NOT TO. They are the aggressor. They bully the weaker Palestinians and force them to submit. Israel thinks it has the right to attack anyone and everyone because it is under "constant threat". They report to noone and do not respect human rights of others and the right to personal freedoms. Israel is a giant, walking irony of a nation. For a nation that cries about the Holocaust and then commits these acts of violence on civilians and their country countless times is a joke.

bitty41 wrote:

But the UN does recognize Israel as a separate nation. It was voted upon in 1947 by the members of the UN and passed with a 2/3 majority, the "No" votes coming from the arab and muslim states. Israel legally exists in accord with International Law.

Markji,

The highlighted portion illustrates my point further even in 1947 (I think some of the Arab states have become more radical since) did not recognize Israel if that vote was held today I shudder to imagine what the voting patterns would be. But the only reason I brought this point was to show that there is a very strong reason why the Arab states, Iran, etc will not relocate the Palestinians.

Honestly don't get me started on some of the Arab states but that's an entirely different rant believe me as a woman I don't have many things to say about the Arab states leadership and radical Muslim states.

I'd love to see peace there. You didn't address my comment about this from my previous post and how peace could actually be attained.

This is no easy question and I don't know if our leadership is even ready to honestly pursue a legitimate peace process. There is no money in peace but again this an entirely different topic.

But now to the State of Israel. While the Arab nations may not have wanted Israel to exist and still don't want Israel to exist, the fact is that Israel does exist. I don't believe you are advocating that Israel dissolve and give the country to the Palestinians? That would never happen. FYI - Jews have lived in Israel continuously since before Christ, although the majority were Muslim before the immigration of Jews after WWII. Today, 15% of Israel is Muslim.

Your reason about why the other Arab nations didn't accept the Palestinian refugees into their nation sounds good, (it would mean recognizing Israel) but there is another reason which I believe is more the real reason. The other Arab nations don't like the Palestinians. (Actually hate is a better word but it sounds so harsh). The other Arab nations don't like each other. They are of different tribes and have been fighting each other for territory for many hundreds if not one or two thousand years.

Initially Jordan let some Palestinians in, and they created a lot of internal unrest. They don't allow Palestinians to immigrate anymore. Egypt has a wall on their border with Gaza just like Israel. Egypt also participated in the blockade of Gaza. Egypt doesn't want the Palestinians to come into their country either. Not because they don't want to acknowledge Israel's claim to the land. Egypt has already acknowledged this and signed a peace treaty with Israel.

Lebanon has a big problem with Hezbollah which resides in Southern Lebanon and Southern Syria. They have fought internal wars with Hezbollah, with Christian Lebanese against the Muslim Lebanese, with Syria, etc. If they had a choice they would kick out Hezbollah and Syria who has controlled Lebanon for quite awhile.

Silverfuel
They don't have to relocate Palestinians. They can build factories in Gaza and Egypt can open their borders as a trade route.

you cannot argue one person's religious views over another person's b/c that's an argument that will never be won...especially by politicians who may have alterior motives to wanting to restore peace in that area of the world.

Of course somebody will now step up and say that all Jewish people have a right to live in Israel. Which is also ludicrous. Religion, nationality, and ethnicity are all different things.

A Jewish person from America is an American who has the right to live peacefully and safely in America. A Jewish person from Russia is a Russian who has the right to live peacefully and safely in Russia. A Jewish person from Poland is Polish and has the right to live peacefully and safely in Poland.

Jewish people were forced from the holy land a long long time ago and settled into communities all over the world. They built lives there and became part of those nations. They assimilated culturally, economically and genetically too. Anyone who claims that Israel is their birthright when they are actually from thousands of miles away is engaging in intellectual dishonesty.

People should study up on history a little bit. Zionism was considered a dangerous, extremist, and fringe philosophy by Jewish communities the world over until the Holocaust and only slowly gained acceptance in the West over decades afterward. Respected Jewish leaders felt that Jewish people should have the right to live in peace in any country they were actually from. And they were right.

When somebody starts claiming their religion gives them the inherent right to displace someone who has lived on a particular land they have to take a deep look at what they feel the rights of other humans are.

oohah

First of all I think you are generalizing about the views of Palestinians. They really don't have a choice to recognize Israel or not so who cares about that? The real issue is whether anyone has a right to live peacefully, safely, and happily. Give people a the chance to live happily and things like recognizing this or that fall by the wayside.

Second, how about Israel recognizing the slightest degree of human rights of Palestinians? One may not like Hamas, but they were actually elected. ISrael refuses to recognize that fact. So the what good is an election if you can only elect who your dictator wants you to elect? Also, in 2008, Hamas was adhering to the ceasefire and Israel is the one who violated it multiple times and also would not let in supplies etc. as agreed. SO who is breaking the peace? Any equitable look at the situation has to see that Israel is at least as aggressive but probably more aggressive than any other government or group in the area.

A lot of people think Isrealis live in fear. They should go down to the gaza strip and find out what it really means to live in fear.

***

What I don't see in your opinion is the point of view of a Palestinian human being. Forget religion. When you are booted from your land by the West or any other power and forced to live in horrendous conditions all sorts of ugliness will foment. What happened to the 1967 treaties? The right of return? Why is it the Palestinians must simply submit and Israel has no responsibility to keep their word? How then can one act surprised when acts of war are committed?

I certainly don't support a person strapping a bomb on and blowing up people. I also don't support a phosphorous grenade launched into a school that kills women and children slowly. But the fact of the matter is that Palestinians are desperate. When people are as desperate as that, nobody should be surprised that they do desperate horrible things.

Forget a 2 state solution. That is a lie. Israel will never ever give the Palestinians a secure viable state. The solution is one state, secular where all people's rights are recognized equally.

I fear that is a fantasy. People think this is about Jew Vs. Muslim. In fact it is about land, power, and money, about the West establishing an outpost in the Middle East. The historical trials and suffering of Jewish people are being misused terribly.

oohah

The majority of Palestinians and Israelis want peace. They want to live their lives and go on like everyone else on the planet. Unfortunately to many people in power on both sides of the fence are never going to let it happen and then in the future more blood will be shed.

oohah wrote:Bippity, sorry but your other analogies just don't add up either. We're talking about people who were displaced from the land where they lived for 1000s of years. Your example a foreign government setting up a threatening operation off the coast of America. (Think Russia-->Cuba.) A much better analogy to the Israel Palestine situation is South African Apartheid or how Europe displaced Indians in America.

First of all I think you are generalizing about the views of Palestinians. They really don't have a choice to recognize Israel or not so who cares about that? The real issue is whether anyone has a right to live peacefully, safely, and happily. Give people a the chance to live happily and things like recognizing this or that fall by the wayside.

Second, how about Israel recognizing the slightest degree of human rights of Palestinians? One may not like Hamas, but they were actually elected. ISrael refuses to recognize that fact. So the what good is an election if you can only elect who your dictator wants you to elect? Also, in 2008, Hamas was adhering to the ceasefire and Israel is the one who violated it multiple times and also would not let in supplies etc. as agreed. SO who is breaking the peace? Any equitable look at the situation has to see that Israel is at least as aggressive but probably more aggressive than any other government or group in the area.

A lot of people think Isrealis live in fear. They should go down to the gaza strip and find out what it really means to live in fear.

***

What I don't see in your opinion is the point of view of a Palestinian human being. Forget religion. When you are booted from your land by the West or any other power and forced to live in horrendous conditions all sorts of ugliness will foment. What happened to the 1967 treaties? The right of return? Why is it the Palestinians must simply submit and Israel has no responsibility to keep their word? How then can one act surprised when acts of war are committed?

I certainly don't support a person strapping a bomb on and blowing up people. I also don't support a phosphorous grenade launched into a school that kills women and children slowly. But the fact of the matter is that Palestinians are desperate. When people are as desperate as that, nobody should be surprised that they do desperate horrible things.

Forget a 2 state solution. That is a lie. Israel will never ever give the Palestinians a secure viable state. The solution is one state, secular where all people's rights are recognized equally. Read my earlier posts. Israel offered this to the Palestinians at the beginning and it was rejected.

I fear that is a fantasy. People think this is about Jew Vs. Muslim. In fact it is about land, power, and money, about the West establishing an outpost in the Middle East. The historical trials and suffering of Jewish people are being misused terribly.

oohah

1. The Palestinians were never forced from their land!!! Read my posts from the beginning of the thread. Palestinians were offered to stay and live in peace with equal rights and to be able to maintain their culture, lifestyle and religion. Some stayed; most left because the armies of 5 Arab nations jointly attacked Israel to wipe out/purge every Jewish man, woman, and child from the Land.

As of December 2009, (Israel is) 75.4% Jewish (about 5,660,700 individuals), 20.3% Arabs (About 1,523,900 inhabitants), while the remaining 4.3% (about 319,200 individuals) were defined as "others".

3. "One may not like Hamas, but they were actually elected." Hamas claimed a victory in the election.....but so did Ahmadinejad in Iran who claimed 80% of the vote. Just pointing out that announced election results aren't necessarily the real, legitimate result. Fatah, whom Hamas ran against, didn't agree with the election results, and fought fierce battles with Hamas before they were forced to retreat to their stronghold on the West Bank.

4. Israel keeps out the Palestinians now and has strict security because when they were let in, they were the ones who were the suicide bombers, and other terrorists planting car bombs, etc and killing innocent people. Not all. Not even most as most are good descent people. But some....and too many to not restrict the movements of all.

Look at our security. And we've only had one major terrorist attack on 9/11. How about the car bomb in Times Square a few months ago. That beefed up security. Israel faces that every day.

Bip - your analogy of missles being fired onto Manhattan is really right on. Oohah dismisses it because it wouldn't be possible. That's right . It wouldn't be possible here, but it is possible and it is happening every day in Israel.

The Palestinians were never forced from their land!!! Read my posts from the beginning of the thread. Palestinians were offered to stay and live in peace with equal rights and to be able to maintain their culture, lifestyle and religion. Some stayed; most left because the armies of 5 Arab nations jointly attacked Israel to wipe out/purge every Jewish man, woman, and child from the Land.

That is not accurate. Some Arabs left in order to not be in the middle of a war but others were absolutely forced from their homes, murdered, pillaged, and raped. Yes raped. The nature of how Israel was won has been swept under the rug in Western historical documentation. But if you read the writings of the men who actually formed Israel you will see that it was a very dirty business. "Adventurism" Come on Markji, there is no way a whole population can be displaced nicely.

And does that even sound right to you anyway? What if some government said right now" that all Jewish people can stay in Israel with equal rights -- "But hey! We're going to move in 4 million Arabs so it can be a Muslim state! Don't worry you'll be treated great!" I bet you would not think that is okay, would you? I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you think it is okay when it is Europeans moving in on Arabs.

Speaking of equal rights, where have all of those equal rights gone? Did Israel honor that promise? Do you really think an Arab citizen in Israel has equal rights to that of a Jewish person? Really? And what about the right of return of the displaced population? Why haven't treaties and borders been honored for the past 43 years?

By the way, were you aware of the Jewish militant groups that committed acts of terrorism in the forming of the state of Israel? Was that okay?

***

Here is what I always do Markji: I forget about who I am supposed to be on the side of and look at both sides. I read facts and history from both sides. Then I contemplate. And here is my conclusion: Bussing in Millions of Jewish people from Europe and Russia on top of a population that was already there cannot be considered right by any person who believes in the instrinsic rights of humans.

Yes, you are correct that Jewish people have always made lives in Israel. They were considered part of the community and many were "pilgrims". And they were treated better (Not perfectly) than Israel has treated their Arab brothers. Jewish people throughout history have fled Christian persecution in Europe and taken refuge in Muslim countries and made very good lives. There were enormous Jewish communities in different parts of the Middle East, and they prospered and lived in peace before Israel came about. Baghdad, Syria, Iran. (I can't remember what the names of the country were back then off the top of my head. I think Turkey ruled them.) Jewish people living in Muslim Spain referred to it as the "golden age". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain

For that matter what about equal rights for all Jewish people in Israel? Were you aware that a great deal of the Jewish people who were expelled from Arab countries (Which was a terrible, terrible thing.) in reaction to the creation of Israel still hold a grudge toward Israel? And find that they don't get equal treatment as Ashkenazim Jewish people? Were you aware that Ethiopian Jewish people were not admitted to Israel until the mid-1980's?

***

Markji, there was a time when Americans faced similar threats that Israel did. It was when we were expanding the American territory and killing Indians. We claimed divine right back then too. South Africa had a similar problem.

I never think violence is alright no matter who commits it. But, thinking clearly, perhaps if Israel treated the Palestinians like people with equal rights -- and you and I both know they don't have have not for 63 years -- security would not have to be so tight.

By the way, when I was a teenager, I accepted the American propaganda about Israel because I did not know any better. One of my best friends, a Jewish kid I grew up with since we Junior high, whose family lost many members in the holocaust, his family told me to look at what actually is going on over there and not just accept what the papers and media said.

I'm done. Everybody should be able to live in peace no matter their religion or ethnicity or nationality.

oohah

oohah wrote:

The Palestinians were never forced from their land!!! Read my posts from the beginning of the thread. Palestinians were offered to stay and live in peace with equal rights and to be able to maintain their culture, lifestyle and religion. Some stayed; most left because the armies of 5 Arab nations jointly attacked Israel to wipe out/purge every Jewish man, woman, and child from the Land.

That is not accurate. Some Arabs left in order to not be in the middle of a war but others were absolutely forced from their homes, murdered, pillaged, and raped. Yes raped. The nature of how Israel was won has been swept under the rug in Western historical documentation. But if you read the writings of the men who actually formed Israel you will see that it was a very dirty business. "Adventurism" Come on Markji, there is no way a whole population can be displaced nicely.

And does that even sound right to you anyway? What if some government said right now" that all Jewish people can stay in Israel with equal rights -- "But hey! We're going to move in 4 million Arabs so it can be a Muslim state! Don't worry you'll be treated great!" I bet you would not think that is okay, would you? I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you think it is okay when it is Europeans moving in on Arabs.

Speaking of equal rights, where have all of those equal rights gone? Did Israel honor that promise? Do you really think an Arab citizen in Israel has equal rights to that of a Jewish person? Really? And what about the right of return of the displaced population? Why haven't treaties and borders been honored for the past 43 years?

By the way, were you aware of the Jewish militant groups that committed acts of terrorism in the forming of the state of Israel? Was that okay?

***

Here is what I always do Markji: I forget about who I am supposed to be on the side of and look at both sides. I read facts and history from both sides. Then I contemplate. And here is my conclusion: Bussing in Millions of Jewish people from Europe and Russia on top of a population that was already there cannot be considered right by any person who believes in the instrinsic rights of humans.

Yes, you are correct that Jewish people have always made lives in Israel. They were considered part of the community and many were "pilgrims". And they were treated better (Not perfectly) than Israel has treated their Arab brothers. Jewish people throughout history have fled Christian persecution in Europe and taken refuge in Muslim countries and made very good lives. There were enormous Jewish communities in different parts of the Middle East, and they prospered and lived in peace before Israel came about. Baghdad, Syria, Iran. (I can't remember what the names of the country were back then off the top of my head. I think Turkey ruled them.) Jewish people living in Muslim Spain referred to it as the "golden age". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain

For that matter what about equal rights for all Jewish people in Israel? Were you aware that a great deal of the Jewish people who were expelled from Arab countries (Which was a terrible, terrible thing.) in reaction to the creation of Israel still hold a grudge toward Israel? And find that they don't get equal treatment as Ashkenazim Jewish people? Were you aware that Ethiopian Jewish people were not admitted to Israel until the mid-1980's?

***

Markji, there was a time when Americans faced similar threats that Israel did. It was when we were expanding the American territory and killing Indians. We claimed divine right back then too. South Africa had a similar problem.

I never think violence is alright no matter who commits it. But, thinking clearly, perhaps if Israel treated the Palestinians like people with equal rights -- and you and I both know they don't have have not for 63 years -- security would not have to be so tight.

By the way, when I was a teenager, I accepted the American propaganda about Israel because I did not know any better. One of my best friends, a Jewish kid I grew up with since we Junior high, whose family lost many members in the holocaust, his family told me to look at what actually is going on over there and not just accept what the papers and media said.

I'm done. Everybody should be able to live in peace no matter their religion or ethnicity or nationality.

oohah

So once again I ask, what is the solution?

Bippity10 wrote:
It would be great if the Palestinian/Israeli govt's decided to work together to prevent weapons being smuggled in. Or even better if the Palestinians stopped teh smuggling on their own, without Israel. That cooperation would go a long way in sewing the seeds of future cooperation and possible peace. The problem is that the very people we are asking Israel to work with are the very people that are trying to smuggle the rockets in. Now Israel can say okay, let's stop the blockade and place our trust in you. Now what happens if the rockets still come? At that point what is Israel allowed to do?

Wow. Why is it always incumbent on Palestine? how about Israel stops opening up illegal settlements? how about Israel actually adheres to a ceasefire which Hamas actually did then Israel violated last year? Wouldn't that go a long way toward peace as well?

Equity Bippity equity.

So once again I ask, what is the solution?

One state, everyone lives together Christians, Muslim, and Jew. Nobody has more or less rights. The state is there to protect all people's safety and basic human rights, not one specific group. And stop bringing in Europeans. It may sound crazy but that is my solution.

oohah