TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:

TheGame wrote:Honestly, if Walsh strikes out with LBJ, Bosh, Wade, and Amare, we might start viewing the IT era alot better because the Walsh era would be a total disaster.

agreed... the entire gameplan he came in here with was to clear up cap space to lure bigname FA's to NYC in the summer of 2010... if he fails in that plan this summer it was a huge failure & a waste of 2 years where we did absolutely nothing to try & improve the team waiting for this opportunity to present itself.

I don't necessarily agree. It would only be a failure if he wastes the available money on losers. If he keeps the money available, there's still some possibilities in 2011 and 2012, especially since we'll also have Curry off the books. But, still, obviously this summer is the goal.

if he strikes out on bigname FA's this summer how is it not a failure? we could have hired a blind monkey to do nothing but sit on his hands for the past 2 years & been in the same position otherwise & still held onto our draft picks.

You can't look at it only one way. The idea is to be in the game and we are top players in this game all due to what DW did so far. We couldn't get a guy like Lebron to come here unless we can give him the very strong belief that this team can be better than what he can get anywhere else. That is something we can at least try to do with the ability to bring in a 2nd Max player. So if we fail to convince him that doesn't negate the need to be in position to seriously make that offer.

Now even if it's not Lebron there are other top FA's and I think there's still a good chance that we can land two of them. If we fail at that then we still have the cap space to use in the following year in addition to the Curry contract. There is absolutely no bad outcome except or spending the money on losing players, which I don't see DW doing. He's said that he won't do that an I believe him.

so basically in your mind, Donnie Walsh has already succeeded... that's pretty much what you're saying, that it was worth giving up future picks & sucking for the past 2 years just to be in the position to offer a contract to bigname FA's this summer, regardless if we land any of them or not... correct me if i'm wrong but sounds a lot like that's what you're saying here.

I think that in a perfect world Donnie would love to have had this years pick and a lot less of the cap killing contracts he had to get rid of. Since that isn't the case he made a judgement call that he'd try to build primarily thru FA and trades. That put a premium on cap space in this FA market and thus he had to sacrifice some draft cache. To me that made it clear what the direction was going to be in the short term.

I think he expects that we'll still be players in the draft. Swapping picks and sending picks with some lotto protection seems reasonable to me if you fully intend on building your team mostly thru FA's. He's in the game this summer and next and that's about all he can control at this point. He'll get his chance to make his pitch and perhaps a trade or two. It's never been ONLY about this July, but also the next Trade Deadline and next summers FA's as well. We can't really declare it a failure until after the next FA market.

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:

TheGame wrote:Honestly, if Walsh strikes out with LBJ, Bosh, Wade, and Amare, we might start viewing the IT era alot better because the Walsh era would be a total disaster.

agreed... the entire gameplan he came in here with was to clear up cap space to lure bigname FA's to NYC in the summer of 2010... if he fails in that plan this summer it was a huge failure & a waste of 2 years where we did absolutely nothing to try & improve the team waiting for this opportunity to present itself.

I don't necessarily agree. It would only be a failure if he wastes the available money on losers. If he keeps the money available, there's still some possibilities in 2011 and 2012, especially since we'll also have Curry off the books. But, still, obviously this summer is the goal.

if he strikes out on bigname FA's this summer how is it not a failure? we could have hired a blind monkey to do nothing but sit on his hands for the past 2 years & been in the same position otherwise & still held onto our draft picks.

You can't look at it only one way. The idea is to be in the game and we are top players in this game all due to what DW did so far. We couldn't get a guy like Lebron to come here unless we can give him the very strong belief that this team can be better than what he can get anywhere else. That is something we can at least try to do with the ability to bring in a 2nd Max player. So if we fail to convince him that doesn't negate the need to be in position to seriously make that offer.

Now even if it's not Lebron there are other top FA's and I think there's still a good chance that we can land two of them. If we fail at that then we still have the cap space to use in the following year in addition to the Curry contract. There is absolutely no bad outcome except or spending the money on losing players, which I don't see DW doing. He's said that he won't do that an I believe him.

so basically in your mind, Donnie Walsh has already succeeded... that's pretty much what you're saying, that it was worth giving up future picks & sucking for the past 2 years just to be in the position to offer a contract to bigname FA's this summer, regardless if we land any of them or not... correct me if i'm wrong but sounds a lot like that's what you're saying here.

I think that in a perfect world Donnie would love to have had this years pick and a lot less of the cap killing contracts he had to get rid of. Since that isn't the case he made a judgement call that he'd try to build primarily thru FA and trades. That put a premium on cap space in this FA market and thus he had to sacrifice some draft cache. To me that made it clear what the direction was going to be in the short term.

I think he expects that we'll still be players in the draft. Swapping picks and sending picks with some lotto protection seems reasonable to me if you fully intend on building your team mostly thru FA's. He's in the game this summer and next and that's about all he can control at this point. He'll get his chance to make his pitch and perhaps a trade or two. It's never been ONLY about this July, but also the next Trade Deadline and next summers FA's as well. We can't really declare it a failure until after the next FA market.

If somebody want, he/she can declare a failure any time. This doesn't mean we have failure.
The one thing is not debatable - if Walsh will fail in opening the cap space this will be a failure. Period.
Now we have a lot of ways to succed. Can we get also lucky is to be seen.

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:

TheGame wrote:Honestly, if Walsh strikes out with LBJ, Bosh, Wade, and Amare, we might start viewing the IT era alot better because the Walsh era would be a total disaster.

agreed... the entire gameplan he came in here with was to clear up cap space to lure bigname FA's to NYC in the summer of 2010... if he fails in that plan this summer it was a huge failure & a waste of 2 years where we did absolutely nothing to try & improve the team waiting for this opportunity to present itself.

I don't necessarily agree. It would only be a failure if he wastes the available money on losers. If he keeps the money available, there's still some possibilities in 2011 and 2012, especially since we'll also have Curry off the books. But, still, obviously this summer is the goal.

if he strikes out on bigname FA's this summer how is it not a failure? we could have hired a blind monkey to do nothing but sit on his hands for the past 2 years & been in the same position otherwise & still held onto our draft picks.

You can't look at it only one way. The idea is to be in the game and we are top players in this game all due to what DW did so far. We couldn't get a guy like Lebron to come here unless we can give him the very strong belief that this team can be better than what he can get anywhere else. That is something we can at least try to do with the ability to bring in a 2nd Max player. So if we fail to convince him that doesn't negate the need to be in position to seriously make that offer.

Now even if it's not Lebron there are other top FA's and I think there's still a good chance that we can land two of them. If we fail at that then we still have the cap space to use in the following year in addition to the Curry contract. There is absolutely no bad outcome except or spending the money on losing players, which I don't see DW doing. He's said that he won't do that an I believe him.

so basically in your mind, Donnie Walsh has already succeeded... that's pretty much what you're saying, that it was worth giving up future picks & sucking for the past 2 years just to be in the position to offer a contract to bigname FA's this summer, regardless if we land any of them or not... correct me if i'm wrong but sounds a lot like that's what you're saying here.

I think that in a perfect world Donnie would love to have had this years pick and a lot less of the cap killing contracts he had to get rid of. Since that isn't the case he made a judgement call that he'd try to build primarily thru FA and trades. That put a premium on cap space in this FA market and thus he had to sacrifice some draft cache. To me that made it clear what the direction was going to be in the short term.

I think he expects that we'll still be players in the draft. Swapping picks and sending picks with some lotto protection seems reasonable to me if you fully intend on building your team mostly thru FA's. He's in the game this summer and next and that's about all he can control at this point. He'll get his chance to make his pitch and perhaps a trade or two. It's never been ONLY about this July, but also the next Trade Deadline and next summers FA's as well. We can't really declare it a failure until after the next FA market.

who's declaring it a failure before the fact? the point is if we don't land the FA's we're after this summer then it's a failure... the hell does next year's FA market have to do with the plan DW enacted ever since he took over? the entire focus has been on the summer of 2010... 2011 has nothing to do with DW's goal, don't make this about next year.

TheGame wrote:

martin wrote:

TheGame wrote:Honestly, if Walsh strikes out with LBJ, Bosh, Wade, and Amare, we might start viewing the IT era alot better because the Walsh era would be a total disaster.

is that what you really think?

The way I see it, the IT era started with the Marbury trade and is just about ending with Curry's contract and the loss of this years lottery pick. That's about 6+ years of IT caca (with Walsh cleaning up the last 2).

And you already want to declare the Walsh era a total disaster?

Walsh traded Jordan Hill, a first round draft pick, and a draft swap all for the chance of getting turned down by LBJ, Wade, Bosh, and Amare. Say what you want about the Curry trade, at least IT traded for an actual player. We traded away our assets for a hope and a wish. If it does not work out, it is a disaster pure and simple. We might be able to make some moves in 2-3 years to recover, but without Hill and those picks, we really do not have alot of assets to trade. I am not saying the IT era was great, but I really have not been that impressed with the Walsh era either.

you are limiting the assets already and declaring failure before they have been exhausted. Trades can still happen and I am pretty sure the Knicks will garner some type of free agent. You can characterize this any way you want but if you feel like IT got something good by trading for Curry - along with the likes of #2 and #11 - you are more delusional than Ariza.

TheGame wrote:

martin wrote:

TheGame wrote:

martin wrote:

TheGame wrote:Honestly, if Walsh strikes out with LBJ, Bosh, Wade, and Amare, we might start viewing the IT era alot better because the Walsh era would be a total disaster.

is that what you really think?

The way I see it, the IT era started with the Marbury trade and is just about ending with Curry's contract and the loss of this years lottery pick. That's about 6+ years of IT caca (with Walsh cleaning up the last 2).

And you already want to declare the Walsh era a total disaster?

Walsh traded Jordan Hill, a first round draft pick, and a draft swap all for the chance of getting turned down by LBJ, Wade, Bosh, and Amare. Say what you want about the Curry trade, at least IT traded for an actual player. We traded away our assets for a hope and a wish. If it does not work out, it is a disaster pure and simple. We might be able to make some moves in 2-3 years to recover, but without Hill and those picks, we really do not have alot of assets to trade. I am not saying the IT era was great, but I really have not been that impressed with the Walsh era either.

you are limiting the assets already and declaring failure before they have been exhausted. Trades can still happen and I am pretty sure the Knicks will garner some type of free agent. You can characterize this any way you want but if you feel like IT got something good by trading for Curry - along with the likes of #2 and #11 - you are more delusional than Ariza.

Obviously, we did not make a good deal in the Curry trade. My point was we have traded away significant assets for the chance to sign LBJ, Bosh, Wade, or Amare. If we fail to get them, then Walsh has failed. Now, we will have cap space, so some savvy moves might help us recover, but I have not been impressed with Walsh and I have serious doubts that he will use our cap space to recover some assets (such as additional draft picks).

glass less than half empty?

Marv wrote:

martin wrote:

TheGame wrote:

martin wrote:

TheGame wrote:

martin wrote:

TheGame wrote:Honestly, if Walsh strikes out with LBJ, Bosh, Wade, and Amare, we might start viewing the IT era alot better because the Walsh era would be a total disaster.

is that what you really think?

The way I see it, the IT era started with the Marbury trade and is just about ending with Curry's contract and the loss of this years lottery pick. That's about 6+ years of IT caca (with Walsh cleaning up the last 2).

And you already want to declare the Walsh era a total disaster?

Walsh traded Jordan Hill, a first round draft pick, and a draft swap all for the chance of getting turned down by LBJ, Wade, Bosh, and Amare. Say what you want about the Curry trade, at least IT traded for an actual player. We traded away our assets for a hope and a wish. If it does not work out, it is a disaster pure and simple. We might be able to make some moves in 2-3 years to recover, but without Hill and those picks, we really do not have alot of assets to trade. I am not saying the IT era was great, but I really have not been that impressed with the Walsh era either.

you are limiting the assets already and declaring failure before they have been exhausted. Trades can still happen and I am pretty sure the Knicks will garner some type of free agent. You can characterize this any way you want but if you feel like IT got something good by trading for Curry - along with the likes of #2 and #11 - you are more delusional than Ariza.

Obviously, we did not make a good deal in the Curry trade. My point was we have traded away significant assets for the chance to sign LBJ, Bosh, Wade, or Amare. If we fail to get them, then Walsh has failed. Now, we will have cap space, so some savvy moves might help us recover, but I have not been impressed with Walsh and I have serious doubts that he will use our cap space to recover some assets (such as additional draft picks).

glass less than half empty?

don’t we have 3 variables here? 1) how he does on major free agents; 2) how he does on secondary signings/trades; 3) how he does on filling out the roster in either case.

Walsh has just torn down the roster (almost - Curry still left) completely. He'll be judged over the next few years on how he builds it up.

nixluva wrote:

sidsanders wrote:the options arent all weighted the same. the one that carries the most at this time is the FA route. they have some 2nd rd draft picks in hand and perhaps will get more. who knows on the trade front. with the FA route being so critical to how you may handle the rest of the options, is it any shock folks are concerned? plus the FA route is the one you have perhaps the least amount of control over in terms of getting who you want.

I actually think it's more in your control going with the FA route. Look at the lottery, which is the 1st stage of the draft scenario. You need only look at the number of times that the top spot didn't go to the worst team. Then you also have the Oden/Durant scenarios, where you end up being wrong. At least with FA you can get a full shot to go after the guy you want. You can work on S&T if necessary. It's not guaranteed, but then the draft isn't either. I think another great aspect is that you have more of an idea of what your buying.

FA works when they want to sign with you (outright or S&T). we can want lbj all day, if he doesnt want to come here, there isnt anything that can be done. in terms of the draft, at least if you target a player and hes is still on the board when you pick -- then you wont miss that player unless you make another choice. the control isnt about the results of the choice in FA, trade or draft. its about at least having more of a say in getting what you want. each option can go bad or well. which options give you the most ability to make the choice you want (regardless of that players later results)? to me thats the draft.

knicks1248 wrote:Yeah the draft has options, but with this years(historic) FA list, we do have a quite a few options, and can play out in a number ways...You can draft one of the top 5 picks in the draft and only get slightly better, but when you can sign 2 top 10 players in the nba and get significantly better...you options are much better going the FA rout

im only talking about the control factor in that response. the FA route is already the highest weighted option in my view. hence the grade walsh gets is going to result more on what he does with that then other options unless something alters whats available via trade or draft.