You can't teach effort (see Curry) and guys who rely solely on their athleticism don't tend to stick for long in the league. Amare has little going for him beyond that. He's working on a jumper but seems to only want to use it once all other options are eliminated. Its not really part of his game.

DurzoBlint wrote:

TMS wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:Those who have seen more of Bosh and Amare than I; who is a better defensive player? Who is a better part time center?

bosh, bosh, bosh, bosh.

Bosh is the better player but Amare maybe a better fit with D'Antoni. I wouldn't discount that if Amare is signed.

personally i think at their best Amare is easily the better player, but Bosh is more consistent (motivationally speaking) & doesn't come with as many health issues & history of breaking down.

which Amare is that??? Not trying to be argumentative but I haven't seen a dominant Amare since before his last surgery. I think guys are going off of the impression he left on us coming into the league; taking it to bigs and dunking on guys. That Amare has been mia for years.

Offensively (Yeah I will get killed for this), Lee has more tools than he does. The guy is just as bad a defender as Lee but he gets more respect and is valued more. I don't get it.

Lee: Better shooting %
Lee: Better Jump shot
Lee: Better Passer
Lee/Amare Both Terrible defenders
Lee: better rebounder
Lee: better teammate

What does Amare do better than Lee. Maybe throw down a more thunderous dunk is all I see.

Put lee next to Nash and Lee will look elite

Suns in Feb 9-3
Amare in Feb: 25 points, 10 rebs, 53% shooting 8 FTs a game

Suns in March 12-2
Amare is March: 27 points, 10 rebs 58% shooting 10 FTs a game

THATS elite. Where was Bosh when his team needed him?

In LAte Jan the Suns were floundering and had a 2-7 stretch. They finished the season 28-7. During the critical stretch run and playoff push Amare was one of the best players in the league. To me a max guy is the one who can carry you for a stretch and if Amare didnt prove that this season I think you werent watching. Bosh on the exact opposite was on a playoff team that went into the crapper. Bosh was playing at an all world level, got knicked up (again) and was totally soft the 2nd half of the year.

Amare isnt Duncan, but he's been durable this year and I think he's proven he's back at a 100% post injury.

Amare as a max player:
can carry a team for a long stretch (2 months) - check
can impose his will on a game - check
can outplay other elite players in the playoffs (Gasol, Duncan, Alridge) - check

Durability is a fair concern. So is defense. But Amare is a max player. Its a non debate as far as I am concerned

fishmike wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

TMS wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:Those who have seen more of Bosh and Amare than I; who is a better defensive player? Who is a better part time center?

bosh, bosh, bosh, bosh.

Bosh is the better player but Amare maybe a better fit with D'Antoni. I wouldn't discount that if Amare is signed.

personally i think at their best Amare is easily the better player, but Bosh is more consistent (motivationally speaking) & doesn't come with as many health issues & history of breaking down.

which Amare is that??? Not trying to be argumentative but I haven't seen a dominant Amare since before his last surgery. I think guys are going off of the impression he left on us coming into the league; taking it to bigs and dunking on guys. That Amare has been mia for years.

Offensively (Yeah I will get killed for this), Lee has more tools than he does. The guy is just as bad a defender as Lee but he gets more respect and is valued more. I don't get it.

Lee: Better shooting %
Lee: Better Jump shot
Lee: Better Passer
Lee/Amare Both Terrible defenders
Lee: better rebounder
Lee: better teammate

What does Amare do better than Lee. Maybe throw down a more thunderous dunk is all I see.

Put lee next to Nash and Lee will look elite

you werent watching. Amare is an elite scorer. I'm Lee's biggest supported here but you have to be realistic. Amare scored 23 a game at 57%. More importantly he got to the line 8 times a game. Amare can impose his will out there. Also you asked where the elite Amare was?

Suns in Feb 9-3
Amare in Feb: 25 points, 10 rebs, 53% shooting 8 FTs a game

Suns in March 12-2
Amare is March: 27 points, 10 rebs 58% shooting 10 FTs a game

THATS elite. Where was Bosh when his team needed him?

In LAte Jan the Suns were floundering and had a 2-7 stretch. They finished the season 28-7. During the critical stretch run and playoff push Amare was one of the best players in the league. To me a max guy is the one who can carry you for a stretch and if Amare didnt prove that this season I think you werent watching. Bosh on the exact opposite was on a playoff team that went into the crapper. Bosh was playing at an all world level, got knicked up (again) and was totally soft the 2nd half of the year.

Amare isnt Duncan, but he's been durable this year and I think he's proven he's back at a 100% post injury.

Amare as a max player:
can carry a team for a long stretch (2 months) - check
can impose his will on a game - check
can outplay other elite players in the playoffs (Gasol, Duncan, Alridge) - check

Durability is a fair concern. So is defense. But Amare is a max player. Its a non debate as far as I am concerned

Like Barkley said, you can't be an elite player without playing both sides of the ball. In other words, you can't suck at defense and be elite. You can't average less than 8 reobunds a game and be considered elite. Its takes more than the ability to score. Those are role players.

The guy does 1 thing well (with the aide of one of the best pg's in the league) which is score. He does nothing else well.

Players that Amare guards have a MUCH LOWER FG% than players Bosh guards. Also Amare isnt getting outrebounded by players he opposes, so I dont really see your point.

The Suns are a two headed machine. Amare and Nash. Amare carried that team for 30 games. The #s speak for themselves. Its not just scoring. Its getting to the line 10 times a game. Its imposing your will. Its winning 9 games in a row and going 28-7 when everyone says your team has overachieved and there is the wall. Its outplaying Aldridge, Camby and Duncan in the playoffs.

Who cares what Barkley says. What the guy play. Dude has been a force in the league and carried his team in the NBA final 4. If thats not an elite player then our definitions of the word simply differ.

DurzoBlint wrote:

fishmike wrote:durzo... are you saying Bosh is a better defender than Amare? based on what? I posted these #s the other day when looking at Lee vs. Bosh.

Players that Amare guards have a MUCH LOWER FG% than players Bosh guards. Also Amare isnt getting outrebounded by players he opposes, so I dont really see your point.

The Suns are a two headed machine. Amare and Nash. Amare carried that team for 30 games. The #s speak for themselves. Its not just scoring. Its getting to the line 10 times a game. Its imposing your will. Its winning 9 games in a row and going 28-7 when everyone says your team has overachieved and there is the wall. Its outplaying Aldridge, Camby and Duncan in the playoffs.

Who cares what Barkley says. What the guy play. Dude has been a force in the league and carried his team in the NBA final 4. If thats not an elite player then our definitions of the word simply differ.

my post^..no I was strictly speaking of Amare's lack of 2way production. Bosch is (imo) just slightly above Amare's sieve like attempts.

Who cares what Barkley says....I do in this context because it is true and makes perfect basketall sense. HOW can you consider anyone elite who doesn't defend. That includes Bosch, Amare, and anyone else that thinks they deserve the max.

This year Amare is a top 10 player in the NBA. To me thats elite. Bosh was not, and he's less a defensive player than Amare.

There are more ways to elevate your team and be a great player than defense.

true or false? Pho is an elite team

If true, who are the players that made them that way and why?

DurzoBlint wrote:top ten you say! Below are about 15 players better and another 5 i would still take over him.
nash
KG
Gasol
Durant
LeBron
Dirk
Wade
Rose
Kobe
ginobli
Bosch
"Lee"
Bogut
Rondo
Melo
Noah
Zach Randolph
Dwight Howard
Deron Williams

Are you a Bulls fan? I wouldn't take Noah or Rose over Amare, Zach Randolph, Bogut. I sense animosity towards Amare.

Vmart wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:top ten you say! Below are about 15 players better and another 5 i would still take over him.
nash
KG
Gasol
Durant
LeBron
Dirk
Wade
Rose
Kobe
ginobli
Bosch
"Lee"
Bogut
Rondo
Melo
Noah
Zach Randolph
Dwight Howard
Deron Williams

Are you a Bulls fan? I wouldn't take Noah or Rose over Amare, Zach Randolph, Bogut. I sense animosity towards Amare.

Rose, I can see it. For now though, definitely not Noah and Bogut. No to Ginoboli, Randolph, Lee (At the same price) and even 40 year old KG who can't stay on the court.

DurzoBlint wrote:No animosity, just think he's grossly overrated. It is my belief that guys are still seeing the pre injured Amare instead of the current model :)
Hey, I'm no authority, just a guy sitting behind his computer and I could be wrong. Its all opinion anyway :)

fishmike wrote:

fishmike wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

TMS wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:Those who have seen more of Bosh and Amare than I; who is a better defensive player? Who is a better part time center?

bosh, bosh, bosh, bosh.

Bosh is the better player but Amare maybe a better fit with D'Antoni. I wouldn't discount that if Amare is signed.

personally i think at their best Amare is easily the better player, but Bosh is more consistent (motivationally speaking) & doesn't come with as many health issues & history of breaking down.

which Amare is that??? Not trying to be argumentative but I haven't seen a dominant Amare since before his last surgery. I think guys are going off of the impression he left on us coming into the league; taking it to bigs and dunking on guys. That Amare has been mia for years.

Offensively (Yeah I will get killed for this), Lee has more tools than he does. The guy is just as bad a defender as Lee but he gets more respect and is valued more. I don't get it.

Lee: Better shooting %
Lee: Better Jump shot
Lee: Better Passer
Lee/Amare Both Terrible defenders
Lee: better rebounder
Lee: better teammate

What does Amare do better than Lee. Maybe throw down a more thunderous dunk is all I see.

Put lee next to Nash and Lee will look elite

you werent watching. Amare is an elite scorer. I'm Lee's biggest supported here but you have to be realistic. Amare scored 23 a game at 57%. More importantly he got to the line 8 times a game. Amare can impose his will out there. Also you asked where the elite Amare was?

Suns in Feb 9-3
Amare in Feb: 25 points, 10 rebs, 53% shooting 8 FTs a game

Suns in March 12-2
Amare is March: 27 points, 10 rebs 58% shooting 10 FTs a game

THATS elite. Where was Bosh when his team needed him?

In LAte Jan the Suns were floundering and had a 2-7 stretch. They finished the season 28-7. During the critical stretch run and playoff push Amare was one of the best players in the league. To me a max guy is the one who can carry you for a stretch and if Amare didnt prove that this season I think you werent watching. Bosh on the exact opposite was on a playoff team that went into the crapper. Bosh was playing at an all world level, got knicked up (again) and was totally soft the 2nd half of the year.

Amare isnt Duncan, but he's been durable this year and I think he's proven he's back at a 100% post injury.

Amare as a max player:
can carry a team for a long stretch (2 months) - check
can impose his will on a game - check
can outplay other elite players in the playoffs (Gasol, Duncan, Alridge) - check

Durability is a fair concern. So is defense. But Amare is a max player. Its a non debate as far as I am concerned

Duro... in case you missed it the first time

No I didn't miss it, I just disagree.
Amare as an exclusively offensive :) player can. That is how you should have written it.
Hey, its the same ole argument from you and me and others. We just have to agree to see things differently.

fishmike wrote:tell me exactly what you disagree with... honestly I'm curios because I am pretty convinced you havent watched 10 minutes of a Suns game since Christmas?

Which point are you disagreeing with?

That Amare carried his team to one of the best records in the NBA?
That when Amare's team was fading he drastically stepped up his game to another level?
That his team is an elite team?
That he's outplayed other bigtime players? (btw how is Ginobili in your list but Duncan isnt????)
That Amare is the ONLY post player on a final 4 team?

If you followed the 2nd half of the NBA this year you would know that Amare was a top 5 player the 2nd half of this year. This guy wasnt putting up inflated stats in an inflated system. He was carrying the Suns during an amazing 2nd half run that nobody thought they could do.

You made a statement but have ZERO to back it up with

read my complete posts. He is an offensive talent (pun intended for joke purposes) but his lack of defense and piss poor rebounding for a big (8rb average). He has somewhat picked up his rebounding in the playoffs - curiously after asking Barkley what he needs to do to become a better defender and Sir Charles told him that he should never average less than 10rebounds a game.

I believe to be elite you have to produce on both side....offense and defense. Its for me that simple. Amare allergy to defense makes him a hell of a player but not elite.

Duncan is not on my list because Ginobli has been carrying them; by far the best player this season on that team. Duncan has faded in my opinion. Garnett has finally gotten healthy and you can tell by his current play. He's still a douche but I take him over Amare.

also, this is a fan board where opinions are allowed. I don't have to back up my opinion.....because by definition is a personal view or attitude. And I have stated all along its just my op

You say Amare is a 'piss poor rebounder'
Then maybe you can explain why he outrebounds his opponents every night?
statistical fact: http://www.82games.com/0910/09PHO11.HTM

You say Amare has an 'allergy to defense'
Yet you mentioned these guys: Noah, Bogut, Zach, Gasol, Lee and Bosh. You know what they all have in common? Their opponents all have a higher FG% than Amare's opponents. Thats really weird because you would think someone playing against a guy that doesnt defend would do better. In fact, of all the frontcourt guys you mentioned only KG and Dwight Howard hold their opponents to a lower FG% than Amare.

So lets sum up.

Regardless of how you *feel* about it, or what you *think* about it Amare is holding the guys he guards to a lower FG% than all but two of guys you mentioned (Noah, Bogut, Zach, Gasol, Lee and Bosh)

He's a winner. He's carried his team deep into the playoffs. He forced his will on his opponenents and his 'scoring ability' translates into wins.

Hey maybe he doesnt play ANY defense. But if thats the case his offense is so ferocious that his opponents cant score on him on the other end because they are to freakin tried to after guarding him.

The bottom line is this guy is a winner and beast no matter what you think of his game.

The only, the ONLY question is will his body hold up. If it does he's far superior to Bosh. Maybe its psychological, but the guys puts his will on the game. Bosh just doesnt do that.

Duro, I dont care if your wrong or right. This guy can play. He's elite. He destroyed guys the season. He was simply a force that teams could not deal with 2nd half of the year. This guy didnt have a good month. He put his team on his shoulders for 3 months the result was more wins in the NBA than any other team (I'm guessing here, but if not who was hotter?)

Thats elite.

Noah.. Zach... phucks sakes man, turn on the TV