sebstar wrote:

arkrud wrote:
I am confused why illegal immigration problem is about Hispanic people and race.
Illegal immigrants are of all races and nations.
It is equally wrong and un-American to treat people based on race - if someone is not obey to the low he/she should be treated equally regardless of the race.
If Russians or Serbs are departed because they are illegal so Hispanics, Asian, of Africans should be departed same way.
Race should not be used to bring people down but it should not be an excuse for anything also.
And if somebody is dumb, lazy, or corrupt by generations of baggers their race is not an excuse.

This is about legal citizens of Mexican or Hispanic origin who will certainly find themselves harassed and oppressed. You cant tell who is of legal citizenship based on appearances, no more than you can tell somebody's personality based on their dress.

The measures being taken by Arizona is not rid us of illegal Canadian immigrants or Serbs...this is a full-frontal assault on the constitution because the rights of people of color are of little interest to those in power when it comes to political expediency.

There are better ways to combat the problem of illegal immigration than infringing on the rights of legal American citizens.

I understand that in Arizona most of the illegal immigrants will be Mexicans.
But in NYC or Pennsylvania you will find any kind of illegal immigrants from all over the world of all races, nations, and religions.
The low is not about Mexicans - it is about anybody who in US illegally.
How it will be enforced is another story. And you think that it will be enforced with racial profiling... which is very possible.
But I guess we have federal low against discrimination and any person who is legally in US can use this low against police if he will be profiled.
So what the problem? Do you think the low against discrimination doesn’t work? Than we have bigger problems that Arizona immigration low.

loweyecue wrote:

fishmike wrote:

sebstar wrote:

arkrud wrote:
I am confused why illegal immigration problem is about Hispanic people and race.
Illegal immigrants are of all races and nations.
It is equally wrong and un-American to treat people based on race - if someone is not obey to the low he/she should be treated equally regardless of the race.
If Russians or Serbs are departed because they are illegal so Hispanics, Asian, of Africans should be departed same way.
Race should not be used to bring people down but it should not be an excuse for anything also.
And if somebody is dumb, lazy, or corrupt by generations of baggers their race is not an excuse.

This is about legal citizens of Mexican or Hispanic origin who will uncertainly find themselves harassed and oppressed. You cant tell who is of legal citizenship based on appearances, no more than you can tell somebody's personality based on their dress.

The measures being taken by Arizona is not rid us of illegal Canadian immigrants or Serbs...this is a full-frontal assault on the constitution because the rights of people of color are of little interest to those in power when it comes to political expediency.

There are better ways to combat the problem of illegal immigration than infringing on the rights of legal American citizens.

cop sees an extended cab pickup truck with 3 guys in the front seat, 4 guys in the back seat and 6 guys riding in the cab. He pulls them over. He says where you guys coming from. They say they work on the condo construction site 4 miles up the road. Cop says you boys got proper ID? 11 guys do, 2 don't. Cop says "rules say you need to have proper ID. Please make sure you do in the future."

where those guys harassed and oppressed?

I mean... what's the concern here? That the cops will use it as an excuse to pull over every hispanic driving through the nice white neighborhoods?

Is it just that cops have too much power now?

I think its fair to say those things but what's the solution? Its easy to say something is unfair or wrong, but its a weak argument if you don't have better suggestion.

The point of this law is to protect those who aren't breaking it. It may be ill conceived. I think much of it is a statement from a state to the federal gov saying you are leaving us very little choice. Thoughts?

Better suggestion for what? What is it that illegal immigrants have cost us? Do you understand how much our economy would suffer if all illegal immigrants were to leave now? Before you ask people for solutions care to define the problem first?

If all illegal immigrants will go a lot of American citizens will have to do the work illegals are doing now. This is bad. We need servants to do the dirty work for us while we are enjoing government benefits.
And if some crime, drugs, and misery comes along with them this is some price to pay. Everything has some price to pay.

Charles Barkley, Kenny Smith and Chris Webber blast Arizona's SB 1070 and their own TNT reporter during "Los Suns" Game
By John Amato Thursday May 06, 2010 2:00pm
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Right before game 2 between the Spurs and Suns began, TNT's pregame coverage did a segment on Arizona's misguided SB 1070 law because Steve Nash and the Phoenix Suns have voiced their opposition to it. Charles Barkley had already criticized the bill and John McCain before the game yesterday, but we didn't know how the rest of the TNT crew felt.

As their reporter, Marty Snider on the ground finished, he made sure to say that the scheduled Al Sharpton protest was going to be peaceful. Kenny Smith thought that was ridiculous.

Snider: It's important to emphasize that this is to be a very peaceful protest. There's plenty of police around the arena...

EJ: What are you shacking your head about?

Smith: I'm not here to get on Marty, but why did he emphasize safe...What's going to happen...is the Mayor going to slap somebody?

Barkley: Al Sharpton's got a jerry curl. He's got a perm...

The only people screwing it up are the politicians.

Smith: Without question.

Barkley: The governor, the interim governor I might add. JD Hayworth and John McCain. They're the ones screwing this thing up. I have to really take my hat off to Robert Sarver and his sons for taking a stand. Living in Arizona for a long time, the Hispanic community are like the fabric of the cloth. They're part of our community and anytime you try to do any type of racial profiling or racial discrimination, this is a federal, Obama..we've got to do something because these little light weight politicians in AZ don't know what they're doing.
--
Webber: ..they said it a long time ago. By the time I get to Arizona," I'm not surprised. The didn't even want it to be a MLK day, when John McCain was in, so, if you follow history you know that this is part of Arizona politics.

I commend the Phoenix Suns organization and Steve Nash for speaking out and I also was glad to see that TNT didn't bury it either.

Tags: Arizona immigration bill, Charles Barkley, game, Immigration, John McCain, opposition, Phoenix Suns, Protest, Steve Nash

Nalod wrote:What about the people fed up with the drugs trafficing, the murders and kidnapping? The Hospital emergeny rooms filling up with illegals and sucking those institutions dry while insurace paying legals are waiting in lobby?

Way to go. Lets engage in complete hyperbole and mushroom isolated incidents into some widespread epidemic to justify legalized discrimination. Harassing innocent, law abiding citizens will not affect the crime rate.

I show my "papers" every day! When pull out my credit card, allergy medicine, Get on a plane, vote, go to motor vehicle, go to the docters, enrole in school, etc. They want to see if im in the system.

yes, we all show identification for legitimate purposes and specific transactions --- not because people in power have deemed you the wrong skin color and therefore you deserve to be harassed.

I get pulled by a cop doing a rolling stop and they "think" I look suspicious they pull me over. Whats the big freaking deal. If I show my "papers" and Im legal and not acting like an ******* its all good!

If I remember correctly, you used that incident to bash Gates because you "handled" it better than he did. But make no mistake about it, you were pissed as hell.

I have Sunni Indians friends who get pulled frequently when tenisons were high. As long as they were not harassed in any way or beaten physically or verbally it was no problem.

Would you care to explain what the fukk this means exactly? So because some cats got inferiority complexes and dont stick up for themselves or their basic American rights, that means others should relinquish theirs? Some women accept domestic violence and stay with their partners, does that mean we should decriminalize beating the shyt out of your wife? Additionally, increased contact between police and citizens in an enviroment of racially-fueled tension and mistrust will increase the likelihood of beatings and violence between officers and citizens. Thats one of the many unfortunate by products of racial profiling.

The reality is illegals are a problem and Ariz does not have better ideas to stop it. We don't live there but many Arizona legals are not happy with being over run by illegals. Im talking people of Mexican decent who pay taxes, pay for their insurance and pay their own way.

Just like yourself a lot of Americans have been bamboozled by loud mouthed racists who want to pin the blame of our countries ills on a rotating assortment of colored people. Now its the Mexicans turn. The Mexican people that do support this Nazi-like bill will sing a different tune one they get pulled over 39 times in one month just because their license plate was "crooked."

I can sympathize with abused rights

I really dont think that you do. Just because something is "put into law" doesnt make it any less immoral.

Pharzeone wrote:Not to beat a dead horse because I think Seb hit the nail right on the head. But I think terrorist smile at a post like dj's. That's the point of terrorism. It's to disrupt your very way of life and put you in a state of fear and panic. Once you add in a WILLINGNESS to forgo what used to be basic civil liberties for the sake of security then I think you are on a slippery slope.

Its hilarious because you see these a-holes in the tea party movement invent these ideas that will supposedly lead to their rights being violated, but here is a clear cut example of rights being trampled on and they couldnt be happier. You dont hear from them sentiment that expresses concern about how this legislation or focus on people of Hispanic descent will affect hard working, law-abiding American Hispanic citizens. Foul.

sebstar wrote:

Nalod wrote:What about the people fed up with the drugs trafficing, the murders and kidnapping? The Hospital emergeny rooms filling up with illegals and sucking those institutions dry while insurace paying legals are waiting in lobby?

Way to go. Lets engage in complete hyperbole and mushroom isolated incidents into some widespread epidemic to justify legalized discrimination. Harassing innocent, law abiding citizens will not affect the crime rate.

I show my "papers" every day! When pull out my credit card, allergy medicine, Get on a plane, vote, go to motor vehicle, go to the docters, enrole in school, etc. They want to see if im in the system.

yes, we all show identification for legitimate purposes and specific transactions --- not because people in power have deemed you the wrong skin color and therefore you deserve to be harassed.

I get pulled by a cop doing a rolling stop and they "think" I look suspicious they pull me over. Whats the big freaking deal. If I show my "papers" and Im legal and not acting like an ******* its all good!

If I remember correctly, you used that incident to bash Gates because you "handled" it better than he did. But make no mistake about it, you were pissed as hell.

I have Sunni Indians friends who get pulled frequently when tenisons were high. As long as they were not harassed in any way or beaten physically or verbally it was no problem.

Would you care to explain what the fukk this means exactly? So because some cats got inferiority complexes and dont stick up for themselves or their basic American rights, that means others should relinquish theirs? Some women accept domestic violence and stay with their partners, does that mean we should decriminalize beating the shyt out of your wife? Additionally, increased contact between police and citizens in an enviroment of racially-fueled tension and mistrust will increase the likelihood of beatings and violence between officers and citizens. Thats one of the many unfortunate by products of racial profiling.

The reality is illegals are a problem and Ariz does not have better ideas to stop it. We don't live there but many Arizona legals are not happy with being over run by illegals. Im talking people of Mexican decent who pay taxes, pay for their insurance and pay their own way.

Just like yourself a lot of Americans have been bamboozled by loud mouthed racists who want to pin the blame of our countries ills on a rotating assortment of colored people. Now its the Mexicans turn. The Mexican people that do support this Nazi-like bill will sing a different tune one they get pulled over 39 times in one month just because their license plate was "crooked."

I can sympathize with abused rights

I really dont think that you do. Just because something is "put into law" doesnt make it any less immoral.

So is this low bad only because it is Arizona?
What you would say if NY or CA will make this kind of low as this states are having illegal’s of any type and shape?
So police will stop and harass everybody?
And still nobody answered my question - why legal residents harassed by police cannot get a lawyer and take them to court?

djsunyc wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Pharzeone wrote:Not to beat a dead horse because I think Seb hit the nail right on the head. But I think terrorist smile at a post like dj's. That's the point of terrorism. It's to disrupt your very way of life and put you in a state of fear and panic. Once you add in a WILLINGNESS to forgo what used to be basic civil liberties for the sake of security then I think you are on a slippery slope.

Its hilarious because you see these a-holes in the tea party movement invent these ideas that will supposedly lead to their rights being violated, but here is a clear cut example of rights being trampled on and they couldnt be happier. You dont hear from them sentiment that expresses concern about how this legislation or focus on people of Hispanic descent will affect hard working, law-abiding American Hispanic citizens. Foul.

i am not "trained" and i am not giving the terrorists what they want. i am not a victim. i am living my life the way i want and care about the things i want to. i choose to say "it's all good" instead of "what the f ck?"

where the country was 60 years ago, is vastly different to where it is now. and the past 60 years has been one with progress. the next 60 years will bring more progress. i choose to view it in a more "zen" like way of thinking. things will continue to get better.

it's unfortunate it's come to this but this is how things are playing out. this law was developed b/c of a bad situation. this law was not developed b/c things are going good and government decided to start focusing on the hispanic population.

the law is about all illegal immigrants. but everybody only talks about the hispanic population b/c they make up the majority of the illegal immigrants in arizona. so everyone on both sides of the debate acknowledges that to be fact.

the idea of america is a very, for the lack of a better word, an idealistic one. but things are much different everywhere else b/c we are the only country comprised of all races and religions. it is not easy to govern such a place where so many people are from different backgrounds, religions and customs.

It is great that America is such a country and I welcome all illegal immigrants to become legal.
And this is what govrenments on all levels should focuse on.
We should make it easy and free to get work authorization and provide a way to became permanent residents for everybody who came to work and build his life ant this country.
But this required effort and sacrefices from everybody and zo is not easy to accept.
So they try to take the easy way out and keep immigrants outside the border. And of course there is no easy way out.

djsunyc wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Pharzeone wrote:Not to beat a dead horse because I think Seb hit the nail right on the head. But I think terrorist smile at a post like dj's. That's the point of terrorism. It's to disrupt your very way of life and put you in a state of fear and panic. Once you add in a WILLINGNESS to forgo what used to be basic civil liberties for the sake of security then I think you are on a slippery slope.

Its hilarious because you see these a-holes in the tea party movement invent these ideas that will supposedly lead to their rights being violated, but here is a clear cut example of rights being trampled on and they couldnt be happier. You dont hear from them sentiment that expresses concern about how this legislation or focus on people of Hispanic descent will affect hard working, law-abiding American Hispanic citizens. Foul.

i am not "trained" and i am not giving the terrorists what they want. i am not a victim. i am living my life the way i want and care about the things i want to. i choose to say "it's all good" instead of "what the f ck?"

where the country was 60 years ago, is vastly different to where it is now. and the past 60 years has been one with progress. the next 60 years will bring more progress. i choose to view it in a more "zen" like way of thinking. things will continue to get better.

it's unfortunate it's come to this but this is how things are playing out. this law was developed b/c of a bad situation. this law was not developed b/c things are going good and government decided to start focusing on the hispanic population.

the law is about all illegal immigrants. but everybody only talks about the hispanic population b/c they make up the majority of the illegal immigrants in arizona. so everyone on both sides of the debate acknowledges that to be fact.

the idea of america is a very, for the lack of a better word, an idealistic one. but things are much different everywhere else b/c we are the only country comprised of all races and religions. it is not easy to govern such a place where so many people are from different backgrounds, religions and customs.

You can live ya life anyway you want, fam. But I'm telling you that you're wrong. If more people thought like you in the past, we wouldnt have made any progress. Its reminiscent of those black folks who were resistent to the civil rights movement because they didnt want to "cause no trouble" and just wanted to go along to get along. And I dont see how this will encourage progess when all it is, is a bastard evolution of Jim Crow laws.

Its funny, even though I was a youngin', I dont seem to remember there being any of these draconian laws and feverish debate about illegal immigration when things were good during the Clinton years. but since things are sour, they want to pick on a convenient and easy target.

Our financial situation has everything to do with our greed, overconsumption, thirst for wars, ext...not Pedro picking oranges down the block and quietly feeding his family. You see, the banks, who largely put us in this mess get their money on our dime and get to do it all over again. But now we want to make immigrants the face of this recession. Its such bullshyt. Picking on the defenseless.

So hell no. They're not going to start enacting racial discrimination to cover for their own bullshyt. Fukk them. If you feel that is acceptable for you and your family, then thats on you but there comes a point where you have to ride or die. The concequences are way too high, and I think you're being far too dismissive of the evil they're trying to get away with here.

loweyecue wrote:

Nalod wrote:Sebby,

When I say "What about" I am not taking ownership. These are talking points, so painting me as you do is not correct.

MY talking points are from trying to understnd not from the right wing hate who support the law for its obvoius but form a practical point.

Do you recognize the problems illegals present on the state of Arizona?

Dude, chill and discuss. If your just going to paint ever single thing said and run with it then your not digesting. Don't worry about me, just give me your points.

Im not talking social benefits as spewed by the tea Party. They lack compassion at any level.

If you must know, Im a borderline socialist but our debt mounts. I don't mind Reaganomic spending to stimulate but when the harvest comes around we must pay it down.

I don't agree that Illegals have many rights as citizans. As humans they should be treated properly. We are talking about profiling not descrimination. We are talking about potentially offending some legals as the downside? Is that whats working you up?

Are Border Guards not being picked off? Are there not problems with the influx of many illegals regarding drug trafficing, crime, kidnapping and murder?

Just like yourself a lot of Americans have been bamboozled by loud mouthed racists who want to pin the blame of our countries ills on a rotating assortment of colored people. Now its the Mexicans turn. The Mexican people that do support this Nazi-like bill will sing a different tune one they get pulled over 39 times in one month just because their license plate was "crooked."

Are you speaking for all now?

OK so "tone" is not always easy to read on forum posts. But with all due respect I think Seb made excellent and valid points and you made some too.

Now about drug trafficking yes it's a problem but are the Mexican's the only people to blame for it? If generalization is wrong shouldn't it be wrong at all levels?

Also the supposition that people are "let go" after they are stopped by cops if there is nothing obviously wrong with their papers etc is a HUGE reach. I don't have the time to dig it up but there are plenty of of reports all over the place where police have racially profiled innocent people to the point of subjecting them to the indignity and humiliation of strip searches etc. So that's why its a big freakin deal.

It's a big freaking deal because people don't know their rights and how to deal with police. Also in most cases whoever stopped by cops has some problems so he will keep low profile regardless.
If you get stopped and abused - you can get pretty big compensation from the government. That’s why in most cases (unless cops are idiots) they will never do anything with people who have papers in order and acting without fear.
Yep it is some hassle to carry ID with you and act like a decent man not as a donkey.

arkrud wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

Nalod wrote:Sebby,

When I say "What about" I am not taking ownership. These are talking points, so painting me as you do is not correct.

MY talking points are from trying to understnd not from the right wing hate who support the law for its obvoius but form a practical point.

Do you recognize the problems illegals present on the state of Arizona?

Dude, chill and discuss. If your just going to paint ever single thing said and run with it then your not digesting. Don't worry about me, just give me your points.

Im not talking social benefits as spewed by the tea Party. They lack compassion at any level.

If you must know, Im a borderline socialist but our debt mounts. I don't mind Reaganomic spending to stimulate but when the harvest comes around we must pay it down.

I don't agree that Illegals have many rights as citizans. As humans they should be treated properly. We are talking about profiling not descrimination. We are talking about potentially offending some legals as the downside? Is that whats working you up?

Are Border Guards not being picked off? Are there not problems with the influx of many illegals regarding drug trafficing, crime, kidnapping and murder?

Just like yourself a lot of Americans have been bamboozled by loud mouthed racists who want to pin the blame of our countries ills on a rotating assortment of colored people. Now its the Mexicans turn. The Mexican people that do support this Nazi-like bill will sing a different tune one they get pulled over 39 times in one month just because their license plate was "crooked."

Are you speaking for all now?

OK so "tone" is not always easy to read on forum posts. But with all due respect I think Seb made excellent and valid points and you made some too.

Now about drug trafficking yes it's a problem but are the Mexican's the only people to blame for it? If generalization is wrong shouldn't it be wrong at all levels?

Also the supposition that people are "let go" after they are stopped by cops if there is nothing obviously wrong with their papers etc is a HUGE reach. I don't have the time to dig it up but there are plenty of of reports all over the place where police have racially profiled innocent people to the point of subjecting them to the indignity and humiliation of strip searches etc. So that's why its a big freakin deal.

It's a big freaking deal because people don't know their rights and how to deal with police. Also in most cases whoever stopped by cops has some problems so he will keep low profile regardless.
If you get stopped and abused - you can get pretty big compensation from the government. That’s why in most cases (unless cops are idiots) they will never do anything with people who have papers in order and acting without fear.
Yep it is some hassle to carry ID with you and act like a decent man not as a donkey.

Wow, so its OK for cops to abuse people who don't know their rights? Lots of people are not comfortable dealing with the police and will choose the path of least resistance. What you are saying is people who don't stand up for their right get abused and its their fault????? Is that the reason we have cops? So they can abuse people who don't stand up for their rights? And speaking of donkeys,....nah I am not going to go there.