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The Suns are playing but is MDA coaching?
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Nalod
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5/4/2010  3:06 PM
Mike Brown status goes up if they win it all!!!!

Of corse you need elite talent but Phil Jax pulled it out of Jordan. MDA pulled it out of Nash.

Jax pulled a 60 win Del harris laker team to a higher plain.

Thats my point! Larry Brown pulled a good playoff team, added Rashweed (not elite talent in my book) and took it all to another plain.

Dennis Rodman as a role player won two rings with Detroit, Jax took him when he was at the peak of his wackyness and pulled him up further and Rodman won 3 more rings.

You don't win rings unless your an elite coach also!!!!!!

My point is MDA has yet to be elite status but he developed that Suns team and pulled them into contenders!

AUTOADVERT
knicks1248
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5/4/2010  3:27 PM
djsunyc wrote:
fishmike wrote:wrong. Gentry came in and installed DAntoni's offense.

alvin gentry's offensive playbook:

Play 1:

- give ball to steve nash

THE END.

I always said the same thing about byron scott when he was with the nets, no kidd or CP3 and he's clueless.

I do know what a top PG can do to a coach's career, and what a bad one can do.

ES
Nalod
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5/4/2010  3:38 PM
POint guards don't need coaching?
sidsanders
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5/4/2010  4:43 PM
Panos wrote:
sidsanders wrote:
fishmike wrote:
sidsanders wrote:
Nalod wrote:Why doesn't coaches get credit when they take players and make them into MVP's.

Nash was not an MVP until MDA was his coach. Shawn Marion was no blue chip pick.

Jordan was a selfish shoot first stat whore until Jax came on board.
Pippin was a low 1st round pick before the Zen Master got him.

Kobe was a young bone head and SHaq major egomaniac and he got 3 rings. Talent was there but it was very combustive.

Why do we not give credit to good coaches?

Adelman had some great talent on his teams but never could take them to the next level. Not in POrtland, Not in Sacremento and not in Houstan.

Van gundy Owned Riley's Heat. Only time they got past us was the "Brawl".

lots of those guys were still elite talents (or close). im not sold on phil -- had he gotten the minn job way back, would he even be around today? shaq was in the finals before jackson with hill, won 60 games with del harris in la. elite talent seems to be a greater factor in teams winning over coaches. not saying coaches dont help or cant hurt.

which is exactly why I am the king of being annoyed around here when people bitch and moan about MDA. Larry, Lenny and Isiah also sucked. The problem is with the roster. We have some good players but have some massive holes you cant win without

understand... however its hard to escape the mike brown stuff with many of these coaches. if the talent is elite or very good, why should a coach get a ton of credit? to me cle wins cuz of lbj.

i can see a coach being a diff maker in terms of tweaks to role players or getting a star to buy into something (like stats != winning). maybe rick carlisle is a good example... 50+ wins many times, and a 60 win season for ind and a coach of the year. that award has to be either the most worthless one out there or its a curse. dude got fired a year after getting it, like many other recent winners.


I guess you're a software developer, eh?

part time, i like callin em programmers.. full timers hate that. most times i do network/systems eng work.

GO TEAM VENTURE!!!!!
sidsanders
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5/4/2010  5:16 PM
Nalod wrote:Mike Brown status goes up if they win it all!!!!

Of corse you need elite talent but Phil Jax pulled it out of Jordan. MDA pulled it out of Nash.

Jax pulled a 60 win Del harris laker team to a higher plain.

Thats my point! Larry Brown pulled a good playoff team, added Rashweed (not elite talent in my book) and took it all to another plain.

Dennis Rodman as a role player won two rings with Detroit, Jax took him when he was at the peak of his wackyness and pulled him up further and Rodman won 3 more rings.

You don't win rings unless your an elite coach also!!!!!!

My point is MDA has yet to be elite status but he developed that Suns team and pulled them into contenders!

i agree some coaches can do that. mike brown doesnt get into that club winning with lbj in my view. is doc rivers elite?

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AnubisADL
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5/4/2010  5:35 PM
So should we give credit to Don Nelson because Mike D'Antoni slightly tweeked Nelson's system and slapped a acronym of SSOL on it.
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Nalod
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5/4/2010  6:12 PM
sidsanders wrote:
Nalod wrote:Mike Brown status goes up if they win it all!!!!

Of corse you need elite talent but Phil Jax pulled it out of Jordan. MDA pulled it out of Nash.

Jax pulled a 60 win Del harris laker team to a higher plain.

Thats my point! Larry Brown pulled a good playoff team, added Rashweed (not elite talent in my book) and took it all to another plain.

Dennis Rodman as a role player won two rings with Detroit, Jax took him when he was at the peak of his wackyness and pulled him up further and Rodman won 3 more rings.

You don't win rings unless your an elite coach also!!!!!!

My point is MDA has yet to be elite status but he developed that Suns team and pulled them into contenders!

i agree some coaches can do that. mike brown doesnt get into that club winning with lbj in my view. is doc rivers elite?

Good point. Maybe we should qualify if win with Two all stars your elete, if you got three, then your a rung lower. Mike Brown wins with one he may just be elite!

Stan Van got three talents (lewis, vince and Dwight). Be nice if he won so he can shove it up Rileys ass!

How about Riles saying he has not ruled out coming back? He gonna stock the team then hijack it again when they have a slump.

Maybe if Rivers won with Marbury he should get coach of the decade!

sebstar
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5/4/2010  6:38 PM
If he's so damn good, do it with the Knicks. Suns are eating just fine without him.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
fishmike
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5/4/2010  8:57 PM
AnubisADL wrote:So should we give credit to Don Nelson because Mike D'Antoni slightly tweeked Nelson's system and slapped a acronym of SSOL on it.
if Nelson coached all MDAs players first yes
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
sidsanders
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5/4/2010  9:44 PM
fishmike wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:So should we give credit to Don Nelson because Mike D'Antoni slightly tweeked Nelson's system and slapped a acronym of SSOL on it.
if Nelson coached all MDAs players first yes

so del harris gets credit for the shaq+kobe titles? rick carlisle gets credit for the det title? doug collins etc... not an exact paralell, still...

mike shouldnt get credit for a team he isnt coaching that wins, nor should he get blame if a team he isnt coaching fails.

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sidsanders
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5/4/2010  9:56 PM
Nalod wrote:
sidsanders wrote:
Nalod wrote:Mike Brown status goes up if they win it all!!!!

Of corse you need elite talent but Phil Jax pulled it out of Jordan. MDA pulled it out of Nash.

Jax pulled a 60 win Del harris laker team to a higher plain.

Thats my point! Larry Brown pulled a good playoff team, added Rashweed (not elite talent in my book) and took it all to another plain.

Dennis Rodman as a role player won two rings with Detroit, Jax took him when he was at the peak of his wackyness and pulled him up further and Rodman won 3 more rings.

You don't win rings unless your an elite coach also!!!!!!

My point is MDA has yet to be elite status but he developed that Suns team and pulled them into contenders!

i agree some coaches can do that. mike brown doesnt get into that club winning with lbj in my view. is doc rivers elite?

Good point. Maybe we should qualify if win with Two all stars your elete, if you got three, then your a rung lower. Mike Brown wins with one he may just be elite!

Stan Van got three talents (lewis, vince and Dwight). Be nice if he won so he can shove it up Rileys ass!

How about Riles saying he has not ruled out coming back? He gonna stock the team then hijack it again when they have a slump.

Maybe if Rivers won with Marbury he should get coach of the decade!

the bold part is lameness... if he does that a second time... thats gotta be called.

GO TEAM VENTURE!!!!!
nixluva
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5/5/2010  12:52 AM
Look some coaches can coast cuz they have players that are so good that they do most of the work, but you still need a coach to instill an approach to the game, a defensive system and the right offensive plays at the right times in games. I think Gentry was a protege of MDA and there are very few coaches that have assistants in the league running a team as well as he is. MDA gets brownie points for that cuz as Gentry said it's MDA's system and Gentry gets points cuz he tweaked it.

BY the way the system MDA has come up with is not Don Nelson's system. Go get the book as I did and study the plays and you'll see there's a lot of depth to the system and it's designed to be highly efficient and has been proven to be highly efficient. It's not a reckless up and down game as some people think. Just think about how well it has to work with a smallish team that runs at 50% efficiency. Usually if you have a big team that plays close to the basket you can understand a high efficiency. We just need to give this guy the horses to run with.

And No you don't need Nash to run it! We don't have a PG anywhere near Nash but whenever we got solid PG play this team was much better. More than a superstar PG, we need shooters, smart ball movers and ball handlers all over the place. When you have guys that can move with the ball and without it and are willing to pass this system works really well on O and D. We want a highly mobile team. That's what he had in PHX and I hope we can do more of that here.

playa2
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5/5/2010  7:08 AM    LAST EDITED: 5/5/2010  7:10 AM
sebstar wrote:If he's so damn good, do it with the Knicks. Suns are eating just fine without him.

When this system of shoot every 7 sec goes to the finals, the NBA will have become like the ABA of old with high scoring games on a regular basis. Until then this style of plays allows players to adopt a playground type of setting brand of basketball of running and shooting and can be very entertaining, but in the end it becomes like like fodder. The opposing team will clamp down defensively on what they like to do and win the series in the latter Rd series when the best defensive team emerge to the top 100% of the time.

JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
Nalod
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5/5/2010  11:00 AM    LAST EDITED: 5/5/2010  11:09 AM
playa2 wrote:
sebstar wrote:If he's so damn good, do it with the Knicks. Suns are eating just fine without him.

When this system of shoot every 7 sec goes to the finals, the NBA will have become like the ABA of old with high scoring games on a regular basis. Until then this style of plays allows players to adopt a playground type of setting brand of basketball of running and shooting and can be very entertaining, but in the end it becomes like like fodder. The opposing team will clamp down defensively on what they like to do and win the series in the latter Rd series when the best defensive team emerge to the top 100% of the time.

when you have to double team your point cuz he can shoot it creates pick and rolls. PHX is not playground ball. ITs very effective with the right players. Lakes Showtime did this. James Worthy historically is underrated but what he did on that team was critical. Cooper was a defensive specialist. Raja Bell played a similar role, as did Bowen on the SPurs.

Spurs had the inside game with the Twin Towers but also got it done with Just Timmy. TImmy is now monster but they had a very effective outside game which opened things up. Manu as a point forward suppliments Parker very nice. Parker is also very underrated point.

The point? Yeah, good players filling a role requires buy in for them to sacrifice stats to the winning cause. Non of Isiahs talented players could do this. ANd Non of Isiahs coaches could coach them.

Get great players to play their roles with professionalism and dedication to a coach they believe in makes the difference. MDA has a reputation in the league. I think Coaches can get better like players. They learn along the way. MDA has succeeded, has a good rep with the elite player (team USA thinks enough of him to keep him as K's top assistant)and I beleive can still get better. Alienating the Malcontent Diva's or the chronically overweight and injured is not hurting his reputation.

nixluva
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5/5/2010  1:46 PM
playa2 wrote:
sebstar wrote:If he's so damn good, do it with the Knicks. Suns are eating just fine without him.

When this system of shoot every 7 sec goes to the finals, the NBA will have become like the ABA of old with high scoring games on a regular basis. Until then this style of plays allows players to adopt a playground type of setting brand of basketball of running and shooting and can be very entertaining, but in the end it becomes like like fodder. The opposing team will clamp down defensively on what they like to do and win the series in the latter Rd series when the best defensive team emerge to the top 100% of the time.

You say this cuz you haven't seen MDA's system run with a guy like Wade or Lebron in it. The closest he had was J Johnson and he won 62 in the 1st year. Imagine what a guy like Lebron or Wade would do! The idea is to give MDA great talent to work with and see how far we can go.

The lessons learned are that we must be sure to have a solid defense up the middle to go along with the potent offense! DW seems to clearly understand this as he tried to bring in Darko, draft Hill for that purpose and later brought in Barron. I expect he'll do even more this summer to strengthen the D while not destroying the offensive approach, which has been proven can get you deep in the playoffs.

sidsanders
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5/5/2010  3:00 PM
nixluva wrote:
playa2 wrote:
sebstar wrote:If he's so damn good, do it with the Knicks. Suns are eating just fine without him.

When this system of shoot every 7 sec goes to the finals, the NBA will have become like the ABA of old with high scoring games on a regular basis. Until then this style of plays allows players to adopt a playground type of setting brand of basketball of running and shooting and can be very entertaining, but in the end it becomes like like fodder. The opposing team will clamp down defensively on what they like to do and win the series in the latter Rd series when the best defensive team emerge to the top 100% of the time.

You say this cuz you haven't seen MDA's system run with a guy like Wade or Lebron in it. The closest he had was J Johnson and he won 62 in the 1st year. Imagine what a guy like Lebron or Wade would do! The idea is to give MDA great talent to work with and see how far we can go.

The lessons learned are that we must be sure to have a solid defense up the middle to go along with the potent offense! DW seems to clearly understand this as he tried to bring in Darko, draft Hill for that purpose and later brought in Barron. I expect he'll do even more this summer to strengthen the D while not destroying the offensive approach, which has been proven can get you deep in the playoffs.

mike brown is a clown and with lbj that dude has multiple 60 win seasons and even a final run. is it the system or is it the talent... i think its the talent more than sys.

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Papabear
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5/6/2010  12:37 AM
fishmike wrote:wrong. Gentry came in and installed DAntoni's offense. He point blank said after Porter (defense comes first) got fired he went to playing the style that Mike played when he was here and they started winning immediatly.

This is like saying Jeff Van Gundy was just as good a coach as Pat Riley. After all he accomplished just as much if not more than Pat did with the Knicks right? OR did he take over a team Pat build and just follow the model?

Anyone that think DAntoni didnt do a great job coaching in Pho is lost. When Porter got canned Gentry played MDA ball and now they are up 1-0 on the Spurs. MDA won a coach of the year award when Amare went down and Boris Diaw was the starting center. Whether you like his style or not the guy can coach. Like every coach in the NBA he needs talent. There is a reason Phil Jackson didnt take what would have been the highest paid coaching job in the NBA ever. Because he knew the mojo zen mastering triangle offense might as well have been Eddie Jordan's princeton offense with the talent the Knicks had.

Larry Brown, Lenny Wilkins, Isiah Thomas, Mike Dantoni.. all had some coaching success until they came here. To bad Phil Jackson didnt come, it would have been nice to add him to that list.

Papabear Says
Phil Jackson was lucky. All he had during his coaching career is 4 of the greatest players to play the game. Jordon,Pippen, Kobe, O'neal, He had the tools to begin with. Let's see him coach the Knicks or a loosing team like the Clippers. If he can win a championship with one of those teams he will be one of the greatest coaches ever.

Papabear
nixluva
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5/6/2010  12:49 AM
sidsanders wrote:
nixluva wrote:
playa2 wrote:
sebstar wrote:If he's so damn good, do it with the Knicks. Suns are eating just fine without him.

When this system of shoot every 7 sec goes to the finals, the NBA will have become like the ABA of old with high scoring games on a regular basis. Until then this style of plays allows players to adopt a playground type of setting brand of basketball of running and shooting and can be very entertaining, but in the end it becomes like like fodder. The opposing team will clamp down defensively on what they like to do and win the series in the latter Rd series when the best defensive team emerge to the top 100% of the time.

You say this cuz you haven't seen MDA's system run with a guy like Wade or Lebron in it. The closest he had was J Johnson and he won 62 in the 1st year. Imagine what a guy like Lebron or Wade would do! The idea is to give MDA great talent to work with and see how far we can go.

The lessons learned are that we must be sure to have a solid defense up the middle to go along with the potent offense! DW seems to clearly understand this as he tried to bring in Darko, draft Hill for that purpose and later brought in Barron. I expect he'll do even more this summer to strengthen the D while not destroying the offensive approach, which has been proven can get you deep in the playoffs.

mike brown is a clown and with lbj that dude has multiple 60 win seasons and even a final run. is it the system or is it the talent... i think its the talent more than sys.

It's always talent 1st, but at a certain point that talent has to be expertly directed or you will lose games against teams that are equally talented and with a better coach. That's why I can't really be confident about the Cavs.

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5/6/2010  10:23 AM    LAST EDITED: 5/6/2010  10:25 AM
It's talent until you get to the finals then it's coaching and preparation that win the game. That's why Kobe didn't win the year he was MVP because doc outcoached Phil and the C's outplayed the lakes. Lbj hasn't won for the very same reason because even tho he's too good to even need to be coached the rest of his team is not, and in the later rounds of the playoffs his talent is worth less because he's playing guys like Kobe and duncan who can affect a game just as much as him
Masgov once ran a marathon backwards to see what second place looked like...
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5/6/2010  10:38 AM
PHOENIX – It was getting late into the evening, and Steve Kerr leaned against a counter in the locker room and took one last gulp from the longneck in his hand. He smiled and nodded, admitting the obvious. Yes, this was the grittiest, the toughest, he had ever seen his Phoenix Suns play. They had won with defense and rebounding, out-Spurring the San Antonio Spurs, and now they controlled their Western Conference semifinal series.

Throwing themselves into the political fray with their “Los Suns” jerseys, the Suns had taken a stand off the court and then made one on it, grinding out a 110-102 victory on a night when their shots weren’t falling. Kerr won’t say it himself, but never has a single victory so validated his rule as the Suns’ general manager. He won two championships playing for the Spurs, and to beat them he knew he’d have to construct a team that could scrap and defend. He’d finally found a coach who shared his vision, and the results of their work were on display Wednesday night: The Suns shot less than 40 percent for the first three quarters, yet won because they penned in Manu Ginobili(notes) and Tony Parker(notes) and took 18 offensive rebounds.

“I think the old Suns team,” Jared Dudley(notes) said, “may have folded.”

The old Suns team did fold. Two years ago, Tim Duncan(notes) threw in a 3-pointer at the buzzer, and the Suns never recovered, eventually losing the game and their first-round series. Mike D’Antoni, whose seven-seconds-or-less offense made Phoenix one of the NBA’s most exciting teams, left the franchise nearly as quickly after the season, bolting for the New York Knicks because he felt he didn’t have enough support from Kerr and the front office.

In truth, all Kerr ever wanted from D’Antoni was a compromise. He asked D’Antoni to hire a defensive-minded assistant or, at the least, set aside time at each practice to work on defense. He wanted D’Antoni to hold his players more accountable. He wanted him to develop a longer bench. D’Antoni didn’t want to hear any of it. He stubbornly clung to the belief that his go-go-go system didn’t need tweaking. Rather than change, he left. From Phoenix to New York, the criticism remains the same: D’Antoni’s teams can’t defend.

Kerr, too, has made his share of mistakes. He admits the Suns “panicked” when they traded for Shaquille O’Neal(notes), a move initially championed by the team’s owner, Robert Sarver, and D’Antoni, but one he also supported. Kerr’s replacement for D’Antoni, Terry Porter, barely lasted half a season. Porter prioritized defense, but with O’Neal weighing down the roster, he also slowed the Suns’ pace, distancing them too much from their success.

“I had a vision for how this should work,” Kerr said. “I just executed it the wrong way.”

All along, Kerr had the right man for the job already on staff. Alvin Gentry had head-coaching jobs in Detroit, Miami and Los Angeles with the Clippers before he joined D’Antoni in Phoenix. He had also worked for Larry Brown and with Gregg Popovich, and he combined the best of both his worlds when he took over for Porter. He returned the Suns to D’Antoni’s up-tempo style, but he also demanded they defend.

“He knows this team better than I do,” Kerr said of Gentry. “He knew what we needed, too. He shared that vision.”

Gentry pushed the Suns in training camp and before long Amar’e Stoudemire(notes) was stepping up to take charges. Asked why he had waited eight seasons into his career to become a more dedicated defender, Stoudemire gave a simple answer: No one had ever taught him.

D’Antoni had a warm, engaging personality, but he never liked confrontation, and this weakened the Suns both in the locker room and on the court. After Phoenix lost to the Spurs in the 2008 playoffs, nearly every player – and this included Steve Nash(notes) – privately expressed the same concern: The Suns needed more discipline. Gentry has provided the tough love, holding even his stars accountable.

“Before Alvin we didn’t really work on [defense],” Grant Hill(notes) said. “This summer Alvin said, ‘I don’t accept the fact that we can’t be a good defensive team.’

“Alvin has that kind of personality when he can be in the meetings watching film and he can call out Steve, he can call out Amar’e. A lot of coaches are scared to do that with their star players. He can do that. He can call out anybody.”

D’Antoni didn’t have the same level of personnel the Suns now have, but he also never worked to develop his bench the way Gentry has. Phoenix’s two most important contributors in Game 2 were both reserves: Dudley and Channing Frye(notes). When the Suns couldn’t hit a shot, Dudley outfought the Spurs for rebounds to extend possessions. Frye made five 3-pointers, all of them timely, while drawing Duncan out to the perimeter and away from the basket.

“I can’t remember really being a part of a team that’s had so many guys step up and play well,” Nash said.

Frye has proved to be one of last summer’s best bargain signings while last season’s trade for Dudley continues to pay off. Kerr shipped Boris Diaw(notes) and Raja Bell(notes) to the Charlotte Bobcats for Jason Richardson(notes) and Dudley, a deal that had many of the Suns’ rivals smirking at the time. How did the Suns expect to improve defensively by exchanging the rugged Bell for Richardson, a chucker who did his best work under Golden State’s Don Nelson? Dudley, however, has helped Phoenix do just that, developing into a defender versatile enough to guard Parker down the stretch.

Hill also has reinvented himself, albeit at age 37. He has become the Suns’ most dependable perimeter defender, routinely assigned the task of taking on the opponent’s most dangerous scorer. In Game 2, he helped limit Manu Ginobili to just two baskets. Like Dudley with Parker, Hill teamed with the Suns’ mobile big men to disrupt the Spurs’ pick-and-rolls, cutting off Ginobili’s angles to the basket. The defensive adjustments have left even the Spurs’ staff impressed.

“I think we’ve evolved into a team with more depth and more ways to win games,” Hill said. “Before, we sort of had to win pretty.”

Not now. The Suns scrapped and pushed and stood tall under the pressure. Had they lost, they also knew they would have felt heat from the firestorm they started a day earlier. In a Cinco de Mayo tribute to the city’s Latino community and a symbolic protest of Arizona’s controversial immigration-enforcement bill, the players wore their “Los Suns” jerseys. Sarver, Kerr and Nash all denounced the bill, and while the Suns have received national praise for the move, they’ve also been, in the words of one staffer, “absolutely crushed” at home. Polls suggest nearly 70 percent of residents support the bill, spurring angry callers to jam the Suns’ switchboard all day. Kerr admitted the team will lose some level of season-ticket holders.

The Suns hope a little winning can heal some of the wounds. Not since 2000 has Phoenix won consecutive playoff games against the Spurs – and Duncan didn’t play in that series. Two more wins and the Suns are back in the conference finals for the first time since 2006. The season’s success figures to earn both Kerr and Gentry contract extensions.

Kerr isn’t ready to celebrate. Not with the next two games in San Antonio. The Spurs have been through enough of these battles to believe they can still win. Two years ago they won a second-round series against the New Orleans Hornets after trailing 2-0.

“We have a long way to go,” Kerr said.

He smiled. His team had gutted out a win like few in recent history, and deep down Kerr knew the other truth: This night showed just how far these Suns have already come.

The Suns are playing but is MDA coaching?

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