nixluva wrote:The big difference between Zeke n DW is that Zeke added to the cap by acquiring losing players. DW reduced the cap and is looking to add PROVEN WINNERS to the team. The risk DW is taking is warrented and logical. DW isn't hoping that a Steph or Jamal or Curry will somehow learn how to win. He knows that a Lebron or Wade etc knows how to win. I take that chance any day. The only real fear is a panic move which DW has NEVER shown himself to do. In fact he's called too patient and they joke that he's too old and sleeping on the job. Why should we think he'd suddenly change and be desparate?

another difference is that Isiah also used up cap space to acquire extra 1st round picks & DW gave away first round picks to free up cap space... both Isiah & DW are similar in that they traded away rights to future picks to try & get the player they had their sights set on... that strategy blew up in Isiah's face... hopefully the same doesn't happen to DW.

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:The big difference between Zeke n DW is that Zeke added to the cap by acquiring losing players. DW reduced the cap and is looking to add PROVEN WINNERS to the team. The risk DW is taking is warrented and logical. DW isn't hoping that a Steph or Jamal or Curry will somehow learn how to win. He knows that a Lebron or Wade etc knows how to win. I take that chance any day. The only real fear is a panic move which DW has NEVER shown himself to do. In fact he's called too patient and they joke that he's too old and sleeping on the job. Why should we think he'd suddenly change and be desparate?

another difference is that Isiah also used up cap space to acquire extra 1st round picks & DW gave away first round picks to free up cap space... both Isiah & DW are similar in that they traded away rights to future picks to try & get the player they had their sights set on... that strategy blew up in Isiah's face... hopefully the same doesn't happen to DW.

You can't equate the two in that DW's objective is to land one or mire of THE BEST players in the game!!! Zeke's approach could never have that kind of potential. Coal Vs. Diamonds is a huge diff.

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:The big difference between Zeke n DW is that Zeke added to the cap by acquiring losing players. DW reduced the cap and is looking to add PROVEN WINNERS to the team. The risk DW is taking is warrented and logical. DW isn't hoping that a Steph or Jamal or Curry will somehow learn how to win. He knows that a Lebron or Wade etc knows how to win. I take that chance any day. The only real fear is a panic move which DW has NEVER shown himself to do. In fact he's called too patient and they joke that he's too old and sleeping on the job. Why should we think he'd suddenly change and be desparate?

another difference is that Isiah also used up cap space to acquire extra 1st round picks & DW gave away first round picks to free up cap space... both Isiah & DW are similar in that they traded away rights to future picks to try & get the player they had their sights set on... that strategy blew up in Isiah's face... hopefully the same doesn't happen to DW.

You can't equate the two in that DW's objective is to land one or mire of THE BEST players in the game!!! Zeke's approach could never have that kind of potential. Coal Vs. Diamonds is a huge diff.

when Isiah traded for Marbury he was of the belief that Marbury was 1 of the best PG's in the game, & at the time u would be hard pressed to disagree w/him... things blew up in his face but the intent was the same, to get a star player to build around... Isiah chose Marbury & the hype in NYC at the time was huge... alot of Knick fans were excited & i'm guessing so were you... Donnie's plan is to TRY & land 1 of the top players this summer, but he has no guarantees (or does he?)... we'll find out soon enough.

That trade at the time was considered a no-brainer for the Knicks. Many of Isiah's critics today were belittling Layden back then for not being able to pull off the deal. Funny how time changes all. Right now Walsh moves are being considered the same. The true results won't be measured until a couple of years from now. Either the Knicks will be contenting for a title and Walsh is a genius or watching their prime picks go elsewhere while the masses begin to label him a senile old man who continued to throw away picks rather than rebuild through the draft. I hope for the first.

Pharzeone wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:The big difference between Zeke n DW is that Zeke added to the cap by acquiring losing players. DW reduced the cap and is looking to add PROVEN WINNERS to the team. The risk DW is taking is warrented and logical. DW isn't hoping that a Steph or Jamal or Curry will somehow learn how to win. He knows that a Lebron or Wade etc knows how to win. I take that chance any day. The only real fear is a panic move which DW has NEVER shown himself to do. In fact he's called too patient and they joke that he's too old and sleeping on the job. Why should we think he'd suddenly change and be desparate?

another difference is that Isiah also used up cap space to acquire extra 1st round picks & DW gave away first round picks to free up cap space... both Isiah & DW are similar in that they traded away rights to future picks to try & get the player they had their sights set on... that strategy blew up in Isiah's face... hopefully the same doesn't happen to DW.

You can't equate the two in that DW's objective is to land one or mire of THE BEST players in the game!!! Zeke's approach could never have that kind of potential. Coal Vs. Diamonds is a huge diff.

when Isiah traded for Marbury he was of the belief that Marbury was 1 of the best PG's in the game, & at the time u would be hard pressed to disagree w/him... things blew up in his face but the intent was the same, to get a star player to build around... Isiah chose Marbury & the hype in NYC at the time was huge... alot of Knick fans were excited & i'm guessing so were you... Donnie's plan is to TRY & land 1 of the top players this summer, but he has no guarantees (or does he?)... we'll find out soon enough.

That trade at the time was considered a no-brainer for the Knicks. Many of Isiah's critics today were belittling Layden back then for not being able to pull off the deal. Funny how time changes all. Right now Walsh moves are being considered the same. The true results won't be measured until a couple of years from now. Either the Knicks will be contenting for a title and Walsh is a genius or watching their prime picks go elsewhere while the masses begin to label him a senile old man who continued to throw away picks rather than rebuild through the draft. I hope for the first.

i remember all the commentators on ESPN & other sports news sources saying it was a no brainer deal for the Knicks... everyone was hyped about the trade & people thought the Knicks were at last a relevant team once more... in truth if Allan Houston had been able to stay healthy, that team could have been good... they were playing well with Keith Van Horn & Marbury as a tandem & then Isiah made the Tim Thomas trade & it sorta messed with team chemistry IMO... they made the playoffs but they got smoked by a clearly superior Nets squad.

for DW to be considered a success he will not only have to get this team back into playoff contention, but also be able to put together a team with future potential to remain competitive with a core that can be built around to form a championship calibre roster... right now he has done nothing to trump anything Isiah did as the GM of this franchise other than free up cap space... Knick fans are still awaiting some tangible positive results from this regime... apparently some fans already consider DW an upgrade over Isiah based on nothing but expectations & hope.

sebstar wrote:That often gets overlooked. Houston's knee disintegrating and how that affected the team.

I used to get killed for being too pollyannaish about the fact that H2O was a huge detriment to the success of the plan Zeke originally had.

In any regard, there's no real comparison to the situation on the whole cuz in this one we come out of it with our cap space and not tons of contracts for other teams castoffs. Until DW actually makes the mistake of bringing guys like Curry, Jamal etc, you can't assume that he's gonna make that kind of mistake. We have tons more options than that. In Zeke's plan we remained capped out and and had to sell our souls in longterm contracts and extra players we didn't really want but had to take. Our options in this case will also be to go and get some cheaper young talent and build with them and look towards another FA class in 2011. We're not pigeon holed.

sebstar wrote:

nixluva wrote:

sebstar wrote:That often gets overlooked. Houston's knee disintegrating and how that affected the team.

I used to get killed for being too pollyannaish about the fact that H2O was a huge detriment to the success of the plan Zeke originally had.

In any regard, there's no real comparison to the situation on the whole cuz in this one we come out of it with our cap space and not tons of contracts for other teams castoffs. Until DW actually makes the mistake of bringing guys like Curry, Jamal etc, you can't assume that he's gonna make that kind of mistake. We have tons more options than that. In Zeke's plan we remained capped out and and had to sell our souls in longterm contracts and extra players we didn't really want but had to take. Our options in this case will also be to go and get some cheaper young talent and build with them and look towards another FA class in 2011. We're not pigeon holed.

I'll definitely give you that. You have been far more consistent with your optimism regarding the orange and blue, while I think a lot of people around here are rallying around the new regime as a statement on Isiah. Just like some pumped up Isiah because they hated Layden.

I agree, we do have more flexibilty, but at the same time cap space and all that is nice, but you have to get talent on the floor eventually. I just dont like the way we have burned through a lot of our important assets in such a haphazard fashion.

I understand the fear of risking so much, but I am totally on board with it in this one instance where we have so many FA's available an the quality of FA's has never been this high. If you're gonna go all in, this is the kind of market to do it in. Now I understand TMS's point about not having kept some bargaining chips in the form of Picks and young talent like Hill. I just think that DW went over all the possible scenarios and felt most comfortable having the hammer of being able to offer two Max deals to a guy like Lebron and Bosh. IMO DW wasn't haphazard in the way Zeke was. He was calculated in how he did what he did. He really didn't want to give up what he did, but in the end he felt it was worth it. Picks are just possibility, they aren't concrete in value. You HOPE that a pick turns out to be good or great. In comparison to a Stud FA with a proven track record, you have to value that as being of more worth than just picks. PROVEN talent is what we're talking about here. A lot of it.

DW valued Hill and the picks, was worth the opportunity to gain 10 mil more in cap space right now. The picks and Hill are future Possible good players, but they are only the promise of getting someone good down the line. Verses the chance to get proven talent right now and I'm all for that in this case. DW doesn't feel he's gonna completely strike out and if he does I don't see him overpaying for mediocre talent. He'll have some other plan in that event and from what he says he wants to maintain his cap flexibility.

sebstar wrote:

sisqo8 wrote:the nickname is very old ...but calling me my dude is "very suspect" but all im hearing is if we get joe johnson and camby and lee this was a waste or something like that ill tell you what part of me thinks this team maybe be a better team with a group of guys as opposed to 2 max guys... something like johnson ginobili or dirk (for a cheaper contract) lee and camby. None of these guys are max contracts but i think it would help seeing a team like this with the developement of our young's and a more dangerous team than being a torn acl from being irrelevant mda's system is better with a group of players that can play as opposed too superstars also, tho sometimes it makes people look like superstars { ask shawn marion }

Thats like a 44 win team though. Is that how we're measuring success? Mortgage everything so we can be a 5-7 seed for the next couple of years?

We should want more.

I'll be happy with 44 wins next year!