AussieKnick10 wrote:

TMS wrote:we never had Aldridge... that pick went straight to the Bulls as part of the Eddy Curry trade.

Ohh right. I get it, excuse my aforementioned lack of knowledge The whole way the American draft and trade systems works is completely foreign to me still.

Look, AuusieKnick10. Save yourself, while you still can.

Go find a different team to be a fan off.

If you happen to be in Australia, I suggest you look at the west coast teams- Lakers or Phoenix.

Don't want to be a front runner, go with the Clippers, Billy Crystal is a fan.

If you are in the NY area, I suggest the Nets who are probably, no I guarantee, going to be better next season, and they will be playing in Brooklyn as well.

Plenty of options for you. But being a Knick fan, I urge you to stop before its too late.

Because, obviously, picking more Sweetney's, Frye's, and Hill's would have built a monster team by the 2012-2013 season. Curry-Zach-Q-Craw-Marbury + Hill, Sweetney, Frye... Far greater chance to succeed than acquiring proven NBA stars with cap space this summer.

Yep, you guys got it pinned down.

Cosmic wrote:And people still cry that we tore down Isiah's mess and traded a pick to get it done (one pick, not three, you loons).

Because, obviously, picking more Sweetney's, Frye's, and Hill's would have built a monster team by the 2012-2013 season. Curry-Zach-Q-Craw-Marbury + Hill, Sweetney, Frye... Far greater chance to succeed than acquiring proven NBA stars with cap space this summer.

Yep, you guys got it pinned down.

THe solution is better scouting, not trading away picks. If we would have scouted better and kept those picks, we could have had Bynum, Alridge, Noah, Jennings on this team.

TheGame wrote:

Cosmic wrote:And people still cry that we tore down Isiah's mess and traded a pick to get it done (one pick, not three, you loons).

Because, obviously, picking more Sweetney's, Frye's, and Hill's would have built a monster team by the 2012-2013 season. Curry-Zach-Q-Craw-Marbury + Hill, Sweetney, Frye... Far greater chance to succeed than acquiring proven NBA stars with cap space this summer.

Yep, you guys got it pinned down.

THe solution is better scouting, not trading away picks. If we would have scouted better and kept those picks, we could have had Bynum, Alridge, Noah, Jennings on this team.

Of course, yet, the draft is a crapshoot no matter how good your scouting is. Walsh looked things over and decided to tear down the roster and use cap space to try to land proven players rather than rely on the draft which can take another whole 5+ years to score with. Especially when you're good enough to not land a top draft pick as we have been time and again. Picking endlessly at 6th-9th wasn't going to build us a contender.

Markji wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:we also kept wilson chandler, who's not bad.

and Lee? Nate was traded. Douglas.

since when were any of those guys lotto picks?

That was referring to "other first round picks we traded" from the original post.

Our other first round picks that we traded : Nate; Mardy; Balkman; we also traded Ariza who was a second round pick.
Our first round picks that we have kept: Lee#30; Toney Douglas #29 ....and Chandler #23 (originally forgot to add)

Berman's original point was had the team kept it's lotto picks things would almost assuredly look different here today, tomorrow, and a decade from now... the other picks were not the, uh, rewards for being a lotto team

knicks1248 wrote:

Cosmic wrote:

TheGame wrote:

Cosmic wrote:And people still cry that we tore down Isiah's mess and traded a pick to get it done (one pick, not three, you loons).

Because, obviously, picking more Sweetney's, Frye's, and Hill's would have built a monster team by the 2012-2013 season. Curry-Zach-Q-Craw-Marbury + Hill, Sweetney, Frye... Far greater chance to succeed than acquiring proven NBA stars with cap space this summer.

Yep, you guys got it pinned down.

THe solution is better scouting, not trading away picks. If we would have scouted better and kept those picks, we could have had Bynum, Alridge, Noah, Jennings on this team.

Of course, yet, the draft is a crapshoot no matter how good your scouting is. Walsh looked things over and decided to tear down the roster and use cap space to try to land proven players rather than rely on the draft which can take another whole 5+ years to score with. Especially when you're good enough to not land a top draft pick as we have been time and again. Picking endlessly at 6th-9th wasn't going to build us a contender.

Im not sure why people can't see that,

People don't see because it is not true. The spurs draft in the late 20s every year and manage to find solid players. You can find stars in the late lottery in you have solid scouting. The knicks are always so focus on getting a lebron that they don't spend enough time finding a Parker or arenas.

his boneheaded trades are a completely different story.

TMS wrote:Isiah was the best judge of talent in the draft we've had since i've been a fan of this team, that's just the truth... i don't even like Isiah & hate what he did to our franchise, but u gotta give him props for how he was able to land good young talent like David Lee, Wilson Chandler, Nate Robinson & Trevor Ariza late in the draft... yeah he messed up with the Renaldo Balkman pick, but every GM has a bad pick on their record, i don't care who you are... for the most part Isiah's picks have all been legitimate NBA talent... much MUCH better than picks like Mike Sweetney, Lavor Postell, Hubert Davis, Greg Anthony, John Wallace, Walter McCarty, Slavko Vranes, Maciej Lampe, Milos Vujanic, Jerrod Mustaff, Eric Chenowith, Dontae Jones & DeMarco Johnson

his boneheaded trades are a completely different story.

Lee - it's been widely reported (not sure if true) that Brenden Suhr had to plead with Isiah to pick DAVID LEE instead of CHRIS TAFT.
Frye - Proving to be an okay player again after some rough patches.
Nate - Talented but STUPID as HELL.
Ariza - Very good role player now. Bonafide starter for good teams. Maybe Isiah's best pick given how late in the draft it was.
Collins - TRASH
Balkman - TRASH
Nichols - TRASH
Chandler - A decent player but he does have his ceiling, he does play dumb too often for my taste, but again an okay player.

So...

Lee - Unknown (No Grade)
Frye - B
Nate - B
Ariza - A
Collins - F
Balkman - F
Nichols - F
Chandler - B

So is it REALLY as good as you recall it? I'm not so sure it is.

===

As to other Knick drafts have you not remembered that we were a good team and by the time we picked most good players were gone? Again given that the draft IS a crapshoot after the first couple of picks? Of course Weiss over Artest was a cluster**** of epic proportions. Of course in 96 passing up Big Z and Fisher.... well, who knew I guess? Apparently a lot of teams didn't. We picked 18,19,21. Big Z went 20. Fisher 24. Oops.

Although to see you hate on Hubert Davis and Greg Anthony shows either you never watched them (too young?) or you just don't appreciate what they did as role players. Who did we miss out on? Spree went 24 when Davis went 20. 24 though, who knew? 23 teams didn't know. So why hate except in hindsight. Anthony went 12th. Dale Davis 13th. Whatever. So why hate on these picks?

franco12 wrote:

AussieKnick10 wrote:

TMS wrote:we never had Aldridge... that pick went straight to the Bulls as part of the Eddy Curry trade.

Ohh right. I get it, excuse my aforementioned lack of knowledge The whole way the American draft and trade systems works is completely foreign to me still.

Look, AuusieKnick10. Save yourself, while you still can.

Go find a different team to be a fan off.

If you happen to be in Australia, I suggest you look at the west coast teams- Lakers or Phoenix.

Don't want to be a front runner, go with the Clippers, Billy Crystal is a fan.

If you are in the NY area, I suggest the Nets who are probably, no I guarantee, going to be better next season, and they will be playing in Brooklyn as well.

Plenty of options for you. But being a Knick fan, I urge you to stop before its too late.

Mate, once i pick a team, i stick to 'em. And ive been a Knick fan for a few years now, just watching games on and off. Starting to get a little more involved now im living here though. So, as much as your advice may seem like sane advice right now.. ill politely decline and stick it out Also, ive already bought a Knicks cap so i might as well make use of it! Not to mention the tickets to see them against the Blazers tomorrow night

TMS wrote:

Cosmic wrote:

TMS wrote:Isiah was the best judge of talent in the draft we've had since i've been a fan of this team, that's just the truth... i don't even like Isiah & hate what he did to our franchise, but u gotta give him props for how he was able to land good young talent like David Lee, Wilson Chandler, Nate Robinson & Trevor Ariza late in the draft... yeah he messed up with the Renaldo Balkman pick, but every GM has a bad pick on their record, i don't care who you are... for the most part Isiah's picks have all been legitimate NBA talent... much MUCH better than picks like Mike Sweetney, Lavor Postell, Hubert Davis, Greg Anthony, John Wallace, Walter McCarty, Slavko Vranes, Maciej Lampe, Milos Vujanic, Jerrod Mustaff, Eric Chenowith, Dontae Jones & DeMarco Johnson

his boneheaded trades are a completely different story.

Lee - it's been widely reported (not sure if true) that Brenden Suhr had to plead with Isiah to pick DAVID LEE instead of CHRIS TAFT.
Frye - Proving to be an okay player again after some rough patches.
Nate - Talented but STUPID as HELL.
Ariza - Very good role player now. Bonafide starter for good teams. Maybe Isiah's best pick given how late in the draft it was.
Collins - TRASH
Balkman - TRASH
Nichols - TRASH
Chandler - A decent player but he does have his ceiling, he does play dumb too often for my taste, but again an okay player.

So...

Lee - Unknown (No Grade)
Frye - B
Nate - B
Ariza - A
Collins - F
Balkman - F
Nichols - F
Chandler - B

So is it REALLY as good as you recall it? I'm not so sure it is.

===

As to other Knick drafts have you not remembered that we were a good team and by the time we picked most good players were gone? Again given that the draft IS a crapshoot after the first couple of picks? Of course Weiss over Artest was a cluster**** of epic proportions. Of course in 96 passing up Big Z and Fisher.... well, who knew I guess? Apparently a lot of teams didn't. We picked 18,19,21. Big Z went 20. Fisher 24. Oops.

Although to see you hate on Hubert Davis and Greg Anthony shows either you never watched them (too young?) or you just don't appreciate what they did as role players. Who did we miss out on? Spree went 24 when Davis went 20. 24 though, who knew? 23 teams didn't know. So why hate except in hindsight. Anthony went 12th. Dale Davis 13th. Whatever. So why hate on these picks?

no, i wasn't too young to know what Hubert Davis & Greg Anthony were... they were 1st round picks that never amounted to anything more than limited role players... that's just what it boils down to... don't over glamorize them just because you remember watching them when this team was actually good... put those guys on the team we have right now & we are no better... how was Greg Anthony any better than Toney Douglas is right now? he wasn't... Hubert Davis, another 1 dimensional shooter that didn't do much for this team... horrible rebounder, horrible defensive player, was not a good passer... dude shot the ball, big deal, we have Eddie House playing in the same exact role... this isn't hating on those guys, it's reality.

this entire thread is all about hindsight, what do u think is the topic we're discussing in the first place? what other Knicks' GM has picked more winners than Isiah has in the last 25 years? go ahead & run through your list... i bet you can't name one.

Charlie Ward did more for us than anything Isiah ever picked so there's your answer. And sure, Anthony and Davis looked good because the team was good but the point is they were the PERFECT role players for that team. So for that you cannot diminish what they did. You can't compare them to Douglas and come to a conclusion because they were role players on great teams whereas Douglas is a role player on a garbage team. So, no, nothing there. Albeit I would compare House to Davis in some ways. Still not as good and not as gritty.

Yes, Isiah was a good talent evaluator. His problem was he took what he saw in raw college players and applied it to what he thought were raw NBA veterans that he thought he could mold. He couldn't. Therein lied his downfall. He saw Marbury, Crawford, Zach, Curry, Q, etc... as players he could mold - when in reality - they were players who were already well set in their ways.

You can mold a kid. You can't mold an adult. And Isiah thought everyone was a kid he could mold. So, Yes, While he was good at picking Kids (50/50 given the total package) he was horrible at picking what he THOUGHT were talented young NBA Veteran players - and thinking he could mold them the way you could kids.

Through all the mess I actually approve of Isiah's trades of Marbury, Crawford, Curry. I stand behind them even in hindsight. I don't like what happened as a result but I still think they were good trades. The other guys, well, I mused he traded for Malik and Taylor to make up for the idea of trading Kurt Thomas (And lets face facts he traded Kurt at the EXACT RIGHT TIME as Kurt fell off the face of the earth when he did). Signing Jerome just because he cleaned up on a broken down Kings front court (WHAT front court their entire team was on the IR!) was a bad move. Jeffries was a bad move.

You look at Isiah and you come to a 50/50 conclusion. 50% right idea at the time that panned out to be a disaster. 50% wrong idea at the time that panned out to be a disaster.

So in the end? Isiah was a DISASTER. No getting around that.

Walsh was right to see how the Knicks arrived at a 146M dollar payroll of 23 wins and decide that that had to stop. Stop it he did. So now we live with that and see where it leads us. Nobody has a choice in that matter.