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Hill vs. Jennings, Redux
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knicks1248
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3/26/2010  4:21 PM
TMS wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Suppose Hill doesn't really develope into anything more then a solid role player, and if the knicks make the playoffs (which is almost a sure thing) for the next few years+, how are those picks even relevent.

that's another big what if... what if we get Lebron & Bosh & win a championship next year? what if those picks end up to be 2 HOF calibre players that we gave away? we can go all day with this if u really want to... let's try & stick to things more tangible... we pretty much botched that #8 lottery pick this year otherwise we wouldn't have had to trade it away to dump a $7 million dollar salary this summer.

When you think about last year and this year, the knicks have to be far better then they were this season come next year (partly to justify the last 2 seasons) , and you have to give your self every shot at becoming that.

We have tried to building through the draft (mis handling that countless times), we have trid to buy our way out of the doldrums, we have signed and FIRED HOF coaches (one that faxed his damn resignation), and Now were suppose to sit tight and take our time and see if hill can develope into some kind of allstar in 2 seasons...

We are Big time players in whats looking like the biggest FA period in the history of the NBA, a great chance to land a proven leader and franchise player, and you guys are worried about pontential players who we don't know shht about.

You have a GM who can go to Labron or wade and essential ask them who would they like to play with in the MECCA OF BASKETBALL, thats a major trump card the way i see it.

ES
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AnubisADL
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3/26/2010  4:24 PM
sidsanders wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:
sidsanders wrote:skiles <> mike though. i dont see any safe way to predict results of a young guy in a diff style, diff team, diff playing env, diff city, etc... too many variables, too many unkowns. its like tms said. FO messed up the pick and the following process ***so far***. maybe it will turn out ok if lbj signs.

You brought up Jennings clashing with D'Antoni because it was assumed that Jennings was a headcase with an attitude problem. That assumption has already been proven wrong. Maybe he would have collected splinters on the bench here but the facts are he is a humble young guy and he wanted to be drafted by NY.

i only brought that up as a possibility to show that the assumptions can go in many diff directions (to contradict the beck article).
my point is still too many diff ways to take this by transplanting jennings into ny at #8. current status of that pick is: it didnt go so hot. that status may change 7/1/2010 or soon after for the better (or could get worse -- yuk).

O ok. I agree with that then.

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sidsanders
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3/26/2010  4:28 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
TMS wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Suppose Hill doesn't really develope into anything more then a solid role player, and if the knicks make the playoffs (which is almost a sure thing) for the next few years+, how are those picks even relevent.

that's another big what if... what if we get Lebron & Bosh & win a championship next year? what if those picks end up to be 2 HOF calibre players that we gave away? we can go all day with this if u really want to... let's try & stick to things more tangible... we pretty much botched that #8 lottery pick this year otherwise we wouldn't have had to trade it away to dump a $7 million dollar salary this summer.

When you think about last year and this year, the knicks have to be far better then they were this season come next year (partly to justify the last 2 seasons) , and you have to give your self every shot at becoming that.

We have tried to building through the draft (mis handling that countless times), we have trid to buy our way out of the doldrums, we have signed and FIRED HOF coaches (one that faxed his damn resignation), and Now were suppose to sit tight and take our time and see if hill can develope into some kind of allstar in 2 seasons...

We are Big time players in whats looking like the biggest FA period in the history of the NBA, a great chance to land a proven leader and franchise player, and you guys are worried about pontential players who we don't know shht about.

You have a GM who can go to Labron or wade and essential ask them who would they like to play with in the MECCA OF BASKETBALL, thats a major trump card the way i see it.

i agree that they have mis-handled the draft, when did they ever try to build through it though?

as far as ny being the bball mecca -- maybe for high school. at the college/pro level, its been a loooooong bad stretch. having seen other areas outside of the tri-state area now, ny's hold on bball talent isnt like it used to be. i have a hard time seeing the mecca arg work anymore.

GO TEAM VENTURE!!!!!
TMS
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3/26/2010  4:28 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
TMS wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Suppose Hill doesn't really develope into anything more then a solid role player, and if the knicks make the playoffs (which is almost a sure thing) for the next few years+, how are those picks even relevent.

that's another big what if... what if we get Lebron & Bosh & win a championship next year? what if those picks end up to be 2 HOF calibre players that we gave away? we can go all day with this if u really want to... let's try & stick to things more tangible... we pretty much botched that #8 lottery pick this year otherwise we wouldn't have had to trade it away to dump a $7 million dollar salary this summer.

When you think about last year and this year, the knicks have to be far better then they were this season come next year (partly to justify the last 2 seasons) , and you have to give your self every shot at becoming that.

We have tried to building through the draft (mis handling that countless times), we have trid to buy our way out of the doldrums, we have signed and FIRED HOF coaches (one that faxed his damn resignation), and Now were suppose to sit tight and take our time and see if hill can develope into some kind of allstar in 2 seasons...

We are Big time players in whats looking like the biggest FA period in the history of the NBA, a great chance to land a proven leader and franchise player, and you guys are worried about pontential players who we don't know shht about.

You have a GM who can go to Labron or wade and essential ask them who would they like to play with in the MECCA OF BASKETBALL, thats a major trump card the way i see it.

u guys continue to try & paint this picture that we HAD to make this trade in order to have cap space this summer & that just wasn't the case... we already had cap space to land at least 1 max FA this summer & another mid tier guy BEFORE we made the trade... Donnie made sure of that by dumping Zach & Jamal last year, which were both good trades because he didn't have to give up any assets to do it... then he goes & gives up all those assets to dump Jared Fishlips... so unless he has something worked out under the table with Lebron & another max FA this summer, there's really no justifying it... if we made all those moves of unloading Zach, Jamal, Jordan Hill, Fishlips & draft rights to 2 future 1st round picks just so we could sign David Lee & Joe Johnson this summer, it's a huge clusterphuch of epic proportions... that's what people are afraid of right now, except for the select few around here who seem to think resigning Lee is worth going through all that trouble that is... if we end up getting Lebron & another max FA this summer, obviously no one's gonna care that we gave up Jordan Hill & 2 future draft pick rights, or Zach & Jamal last year, because it would all have been worth it, but right now that is a big huge what if to lay your hat on, especially with limited assets to offer up in any sign & trade type scenario to land those types of players.

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knicks1248
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3/26/2010  4:40 PM
TMS wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
TMS wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Suppose Hill doesn't really develope into anything more then a solid role player, and if the knicks make the playoffs (which is almost a sure thing) for the next few years+, how are those picks even relevent.

that's another big what if... what if we get Lebron & Bosh & win a championship next year? what if those picks end up to be 2 HOF calibre players that we gave away? we can go all day with this if u really want to... let's try & stick to things more tangible... we pretty much botched that #8 lottery pick this year otherwise we wouldn't have had to trade it away to dump a $7 million dollar salary this summer.

When you think about last year and this year, the knicks have to be far better then they were this season come next year (partly to justify the last 2 seasons) , and you have to give your self every shot at becoming that.

We have tried to building through the draft (mis handling that countless times), we have trid to buy our way out of the doldrums, we have signed and FIRED HOF coaches (one that faxed his damn resignation), and Now were suppose to sit tight and take our time and see if hill can develope into some kind of allstar in 2 seasons...

We are Big time players in whats looking like the biggest FA period in the history of the NBA, a great chance to land a proven leader and franchise player, and you guys are worried about pontential players who we don't know shht about.

You have a GM who can go to Labron or wade and essential ask them who would they like to play with in the MECCA OF BASKETBALL, thats a major trump card the way i see it.

u guys continue to try & paint this picture that we HAD to make this trade in order to have cap space this summer & that just wasn't the case... we already had cap space to land at least 1 max FA this summer & another mid tier guy BEFORE we made the trade... Donnie made sure of that by dumping Zach & Jamal last year, which were both good trades because he didn't have to give up any assets to do it... then he goes & gives up all those assets to dump Jared Fishlips... so unless he has something worked out under the table with Lebron & another max FA this summer, there's really no justifying it... if we made all those moves of unloading Zach, Jamal, Jordan Hill, Fishlips & draft rights to 2 future 1st round picks just so we could sign David Lee & Joe Johnson this summer, it's a huge clusterphuch of epic proportions... that's what people are afraid of right now, except for the select few around here who seem to think resigning Lee is worth going through all that trouble that is... if we end up getting Lebron & another max FA this summer, obviously no one's gonna care that we gave up Jordan Hill & 2 future draft pick rights, or Zach & Jamal last year, because it would all have been worth it, but right now that is a big huge what if to lay your hat on, especially with limited assets to offer up in any sign & trade type scenario to land those types of players.

C mon we have all seen JJ play and knew that we were going to have to give up extra incentives to get rid of that contract, so I can't see how some people have te Home Alone (Macaulay culkin) look now

ES
TMS
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3/26/2010  4:46 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/26/2010  4:49 PM
anyone who says they thought we'd realistically have to give up our #8 lottery pick & the rights to 2 future 1st rounders to dump Fishlips contract this time last year or even in the weeks leading up to the trade deadline, or says they would be willing to pay such a high price to do so, is a liar... people only started making reason of that trade after it became known the trade was imminent saying it was a price they'd be willing to pay to get the deal done... anyone who proposed such a lopsided deal in the weeks leading up to the trade deadline would have been laughed off these forums.
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AnubisADL
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3/26/2010  4:56 PM
TMS wrote:anyone who says they thought we'd realistically have to give up our #8 lottery pick & the rights to 2 future 1st rounders to dump Fishlips contract this time last year or even in the weeks leading up to the trade deadline, or says they would be willing to pay such a high price to do so, is a liar... people only started making reason of that trade after it became known the trade was imminent saying it was a price they'd be willing to pay to get the deal done... anyone who proposed such a lopsided deal in the weeks leading up to the trade deadline would have been laughed off these forums.

TMS keeping it "REAL"

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knicks1248
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3/26/2010  5:00 PM
TMS wrote:anyone who says they thought we'd realistically have to give up our #8 lottery pick & the rights to 2 future 1st rounders to dump Fishlips contract this time last year or even in the weeks leading up to the trade deadline, or says they would be willing to pay such a high price to do so, is a liar... people only started making reason of that trade after it became known the trade was imminent saying it was a price they'd be willing to pay to get the deal done... anyone who proposed such a lopsided deal in the weeks leading up to the trade deadline would have been laughed off these forums.

Again, your jumping the gun by saying it's a lopsided deal not knowing how things are going to turn out next year, at this point it only APPEARS to be a lopsided deal, shouldn't we wait to see how things pan out.

I remeber suns fans ripping management for trading steph without the least bit knowledge that NASH would be signing with them the following season.

ES
CrushAlot
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3/26/2010  5:02 PM
Hill didn't have to be a wasted pick at 8. He was never given a chance in NY sitting out 20 games in their entirety and never playing over 19 minutes (that happened once) in a rebuilding season with a roster filled with expiring vets who will not be around next year. The lack of playing time devalued Hill to the point where he was almost a throw in with other assets that were given away. It hasn't been mentioned but my guess is that other teams/gms would look at the Knicks roster, their record, the guys in the playing rotation and assume that Hill must really suck and be worthless if he can't get minutes in that situation. That is on the coach in my opinion. I also think the fact that Douglas was in the same situation until the March road trip that Walsh went on speaks to the coach and his treatment of rookies.
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knicks1248
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3/26/2010  5:09 PM
But why would you think Hill is more then a throw in, you have no way of knowing that, all you do know is that if he is no more then a role player, then the problem wasn't trading him, it was more of why the hell did the knicks draft a role player so high.
ES
TMS
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3/26/2010  5:11 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
TMS wrote:anyone who says they thought we'd realistically have to give up our #8 lottery pick & the rights to 2 future 1st rounders to dump Fishlips contract this time last year or even in the weeks leading up to the trade deadline, or says they would be willing to pay such a high price to do so, is a liar... people only started making reason of that trade after it became known the trade was imminent saying it was a price they'd be willing to pay to get the deal done... anyone who proposed such a lopsided deal in the weeks leading up to the trade deadline would have been laughed off these forums.

Again, your jumping the gun by saying it's a lopsided deal not knowing how things are going to turn out next year, at this point it only APPEARS to be a lopsided deal, shouldn't we wait to see how things pan out.

I remeber suns fans ripping management for trading steph without the least bit knowledge that NASH would be signing with them the following season.

dude, the Suns got back 2 1st round draft picks from us in that Stephon trade, including our 1st round pick in this year's draft that we're gonna be pained to watch go to Utah when they land a great looking prospect like DeMarcus Cousins or Derrick Favors this summer... & they also got back expiring contracts & the draft rights to another prospect... they played the Houston Rockets role in that trade & people widely thought we overpaid to get Marbury here, which we obviously did... & even then, at least Marbury was still an Allstar calibre talent who was durable... this year we got back a broken down Tracy McGrady who is just trying to show he can remain healthy for the last few games of the season & Sergio "Steve Nash Lite" Rodriguez... just a tad different from that Phoenix trade.

again, IF we get Lebron & another max FA this summer, no one is gonna have a problem w/this trade, but how can u possibly be confident that that's gonna happen? at least in Nash's case he already had ties to the Phoenix organization... what ties does Lebron have to NY other than being a Yankees fan?

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CrushAlot
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3/26/2010  5:17 PM
knicks1248 wrote:But why would you think Hill is more then a throw in, you have no way of knowing that, all you do know is that if he is no more then a role player, then the problem wasn't trading him, it was more of why the hell did the knicks draft a role player so high.

You didn't know what Hill was as an NBA player because he didn't get a chance to play for Mike D'Antoni. You did know that he was rated very highly in the draft by guys who are supposed to be experts and make their living scouting guys. Had he been given the minutes he has been getting in Houston his value may have been high enough to make that trade without including the 2012 pick. His value maybe high enough by the end of the season for him to be used in a sign and trade to land Bosh.
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Cosmic
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3/26/2010  9:31 PM
TMS wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
TMS wrote:anyone who says they thought we'd realistically have to give up our #8 lottery pick & the rights to 2 future 1st rounders to dump Fishlips contract this time last year or even in the weeks leading up to the trade deadline, or says they would be willing to pay such a high price to do so, is a liar... people only started making reason of that trade after it became known the trade was imminent saying it was a price they'd be willing to pay to get the deal done... anyone who proposed such a lopsided deal in the weeks leading up to the trade deadline would have been laughed off these forums.

Again, your jumping the gun by saying it's a lopsided deal not knowing how things are going to turn out next year, at this point it only APPEARS to be a lopsided deal, shouldn't we wait to see how things pan out.

I remeber suns fans ripping management for trading steph without the least bit knowledge that NASH would be signing with them the following season.

dude, the Suns got back 2 1st round draft picks from us in that Stephon trade, including our 1st round pick in this year's draft that we're gonna be pained to watch go to Utah when they land a great looking prospect like DeMarcus Cousins or Derrick Favors this summer... & they also got back expiring contracts & the draft rights to another prospect... they played the Houston Rockets role in that trade & people widely thought we overpaid to get Marbury here, which we obviously did... & even then, at least Marbury was still an Allstar calibre talent who was durable... this year we got back a broken down Tracy McGrady who is just trying to show he can remain healthy for the last few games of the season & Sergio "Steve Nash Lite" Rodriguez... just a tad different from that Phoenix trade.

again, IF we get Lebron & another max FA this summer, no one is gonna have a problem w/this trade, but how can u possibly be confident that that's gonna happen? at least in Nash's case he already had ties to the Phoenix organization... what ties does Lebron have to NY other than being a Yankees fan?

Don't you feel a bit differently about the trade's purpose?

Isiah made the trades to acquire players on long term deals. When those players did not work out we were screwed for YEARS.

Donnie made the trades to acquire cap space. If we can't field a proper team this offseason we're NOT locked into YEARS of a mess. We still have our full flexibility heading forward.

We also don't just have to sign FA's. We can acquire other team's players under contract and just absorb the player's contract in trade.

Isiah: Either this player works out or we're screwed until his contract expires.
Donnie: Either we score this summer, or, we can continue to try to score during the season, during the deadline, during next summer, for eternity.

There IS a difference. A BIG difference!

We bring back most of this same team and land even just ONE very good player we're likely to go to the playoffs and the 2011 pick swap never happens.

Then the following season we land another very good player and we're contending. The 2012 pick will be pointless.

That's the plan. That's where we're going. Time to get on board and stop worrying about what got us here until you see what we do this summer. It's been a month since the trade. Blasting the trade every day all day for over a month....aren't you tired of doing that?

Look forward..................

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TMS
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3/27/2010  3:02 PM
you're getting on my case for blasting the trade & yet you blast Jordan Hill in every other post you make whether the topic is raised or not... yeah, the trade pissed me off & until we land Lebron & Bosh/Wade/Amare this summer, i'm gonna be pissed about it... & if we don't land those guys, i'll be bitching every day over the summer, you can count on it... i'll stop bitching when Lebron is putting on that Knicks' uniform... don't even talk to me about 2011 as an option, a blind monkey could have taken over this team 2 years ago & that option was going to be available to us.
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3/27/2010  7:07 PM
On the Mike D'Antoni show let it slip that they were targeting a point guard and when Evans, Curry and Flynn were taken they went with "the best player available."

Nice work Donnie. Those other PG's weren't worth taking anyway.

Lawson - Jennings - Holiday - Beaubois - Teague - Maynor - Collison

Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
TMS
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3/27/2010  7:15 PM
that's old news... they made that comment on the day of the draft about taking BPA after Curry & Evans came off the board... they obviously miscalculated the talent level of the PG's that were still available.
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3/27/2010  7:27 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/27/2010  7:28 PM
JohnWallace44 wrote:On the Mike D'Antoni show let it slip that they were targeting a point guard and when Evans, Curry and Flynn were taken they went with "the best player available."

Nice work Donnie. Those other PG's weren't worth taking anyway.

Lawson - Jennings - Holiday - Beaubois - Teague - Maynor - Collison

LMAO. Such bull****. They had a video on MSG.com that said Evans, Curry, Holiday, and Jennings were options at 8 the day before the draft.

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3/27/2010  7:28 PM
Sometimes I wonder...(Looking back of course)... if we took Hill (BPA, which well, he wasn't, but maybe that day it appeared he was), as a FUTURE ASSET and not necessarily a player we intended to keep and develop down the road.

Think about it. Lee, (Curry), Gallo, Al, Chandler(who can and does play some 4), (Darko).

Why choose another forward in Hill? Especially a raw player as he is?

When you REALLY think about it what value was choosing Hill? Pretty low unless we really expected to flat out lose Lee for nothing? I doubt Donnie had any intention on letting Lee walk for nothing.

So it just didn't make sense. Maybe we did try a draft day deal and nothing happened. So then we picked Hill thinking he'd be an asset to use in trade down the road - a better asset than say a guard of equal raw ability (As we know teams will go for the big man over the guard if they're of equal promise).

...It's just a hindsight thought but maybe it's not that far fetched: We chose Hill with the intent of using him as an asset down the road in a trade.

*shrug*

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3/27/2010  7:32 PM
Jennings admits that there were times when he thought he had made a mistake by skipping college and leaving the spotlight in the U.S., especially when he wasn’t playing much at first, but his draft stock never dropped. He considers himself the top point guard prospect in the draft and is only working out for teams selecting four through eight.

“Those are the only teams that I know right now that need point guards,” he said.

But New York is the one place where the tremendous athlete who handles the ball well in traffic and has excellent court vision thinks he would excel the most. Now he just has to sit back and wait and see what happens.

“I think I’d do great,” Jennings said. “I’m an up-and-down player, I like to run the fastbreaks and I like to get out. (D’Antoni) likes to let his point guards go and that’s something I like to do so I’d be perfect for his offense.”

Source: http://www.nba.com/knicks/news/09workoutjennings.html

D'Antoni can talk all the foolishness he likes.

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CrushAlot
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3/27/2010  11:58 PM
Hill came back from an injury tonight and had 8pts 6 rebs and 2 stls against the lakers in 26 minutes. He was a keeper and could have and should have helped the Knicks. How Bender and Jeffries got minutes over this years lottery pick continues to baffle me. Neither of these guys put numbers anywhere close to this. Bender was not a good rebounder and only had 3 games where he scored over 8 points. Jeffries was given almost 30 minutes a game and averaged almost 6 pts and 4 rebs. How do you justify the coach not playing Hill on a team that is struggling to win 30 games? How can you justify Hill sitting on the bench behind guys that were not a part of the teams future and had expiring contracts? The Hill trade sucked.
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Hill vs. Jennings, Redux

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