TMS wrote:

oohah wrote:

holfresh wrote:
I saw him last night...He held the ball so long it was disruptive..he had two assist, 30 pts...But checking his stats I see 14/15 assist nights...I'm not sure i want my point guard taking 20 shots a game thought...

I didn't watch the game, but last night Marcus Thornton got hurt and think that somebody needed to score. I think his large point totals are more a funtion of lack of scorers on New Orleans than being a chucker.

But either way this kid Collison is good. Also Marcus Thornton, a second round steal. the Knicks never draft a steal.

oohah

David Lee at #30 was a steal... Trevor Ariza at #43 was also a steal but this organization gave up on him way too early... comparison wise i think u can easily say D Lee was as good of a steal as Collison & same for Ariza in comparison to Thornton.

WindsorPl wrote:He is a steal because he worked to develop his skills and acquire new ones. Otherwise, would have been a bust.

Disagree. Lee did some very nice things as a rookie. His game has not changed much at all. He is more savvy than he used to be. As a matter of fact, from a askill standpoint, Lee has really only added a jumpshot to his game since his rookie season, and that skill he only added this very season.

I know a lot of guys will disagree about Lee's J previous to this season, and to them I say go check the numbers please.

oohah

TMS wrote:

WindsorPl wrote:Why can't the Knicks develop their own Shanon Brown, Collison or Beaubois?
Do the Knicks have anybody to work with the rookies? Maybe they should get this guy Robert Pack.

To help with his development, Collison showed up 45 minutes early to practices to work with assistant coach Robert Pack, a former NBA point guard. Pack called Collison every morning to make sure the rookie was awake and ready to work.

“It was pretty much more of a learning experience than it is now at the beginning,” Collison said. “I had to just wait for the opportunity to present itself. In the meantime, I had to continue to work on my game.

“Coach Pack means a lot to me and I wouldn’t be in the position I’m in now without him. That paid dividends because I got better and better in the workouts and continued to grow.”

imagine that... a young kid who actually needs to be COACHED to reach his full potential... novel concept... i thought you just had to add water & mix & NBA prospects come out & dominate right out the gate?

With MDA it seems like this is the case. Going back to his Phoenix days he has short patience with guys not very at this level. He leaves those guys by the waste side. He had no use for James Jones, chucking Rudy Fernandez and Sergio Rodriguez because they couldn't get a more developed player in the draft. Dumping that guy he raved about on draft night that the Knicks drafted for them in the Robinson trade, Thompson. Now with Hill and Douglas.

oohah wrote:

TMS wrote:
David Lee at #30 was a steal... Trevor Ariza at #43 was also a steal but this organization gave up on him way too early... comparison wise i think u can easily say D Lee was as good of a steal as Collison & same for Ariza in comparison to Thornton.

You're right. For that matter Nate Robinson was a steal at #23(?). I agree that the problem is the Knicks refuse to work with what they have and develop it.

If the Knicks had simply kept on developing youth like they were doing going into the LB season, we would have seen the playoffs by now.

However, I disagree with Lee being the equivalent of Darren Collison steal-wise. This kid has serious skills to step in for Paul the way he has as a rookie and he has huge gonads the way he performs when the game counts. Lee could not have jumped in and played at a star level in his first couple of seasons.

And if you watch this Thornton kid play I think you'll see that he has the ability to be a very good scorer in the NBA for while...as long as he can stop falling on his neck-bone.

oohah

i saw that game he & Collison went off the other night... Thornton definitely has skills but Ariza was an electrifying player as well... & he was 3 years younger than Thornton when he was a rook w/the Knicks

as for Collison, he's got full reign over the team now that CP3 is injured... D Lee was never afforded that opportunity in his first few seasons, he was competing w/guys like Curry & Zach... i agree that Collison has a more developed skillset than David did coming in his rookie season, that's not debateable... but it wasn't long before we were talking about Lee as a top 5 worthy selection the year after he was drafted.

oohah wrote:

WindsorPl wrote:He is a steal because he worked to develop his skills and acquire new ones. Otherwise, would have been a bust.

Disagree. Lee did some very nice things as a rookie. His game has not changed much at all. He is more savvy than he used to be. As a matter of fact, from a askill standpoint, Lee has really only added a jumpshot to his game since his rookie season, and that skill he only added this very season.

I know a lot of guys will disagree about Lee's J previous to this season, and to them I say go check the numbers please.

oohah

oohah wrote:

WindsorPl wrote:He is a steal because he worked to develop his skills and acquire new ones. Otherwise, would have been a bust.

Disagree. Lee did some very nice things as a rookie. His game has not changed much at all. He is more savvy than he used to be. As a matter of fact, from a askill standpoint, Lee has really only added a jumpshot to his game since his rookie season, and that skill he only added this very season.

I know a lot of guys will disagree about Lee's J previous to this season, and to them I say go check the numbers please.

oohah

He expanded is offensive arsenal and has added a J. Did he shoot with range anywhere near as much? Did his assist move up by 33% He still played much closer to the basket last year. His expanded game leaves the opening to bring in a another big man. He doesnt need to score from point blank range. All of his arsenal is reliable. He is easily easily the best mid range jump shooting big in the nBA--not even close.

BRIGGS wrote:
He expanded is offensive arsenal and has added a J. Did he shoot with range anywhere near as much? Did his assist move up by 33% He still played much closer to the basket last year. His expanded game leaves the opening to bring in a another big man. He doesnt need to score from point blank range. All of his arsenal is reliable. He is easily easily the best mid range jump shooting big in the nBA--not even close.

Lee added a jumper. He has not created an "arsenal" of offense. First, Lee always was an excellent layup artist and that is still where his strength is.

Second, please let's not start the Lee is the best midrange jump shooter. He is not even close. Garnett is a better mid-range shooter. Jamison is a better mid-range shooter. Durant is a better mid-range shooter. Nowitzki is a better mid-range shooter. Randolph is a better mid-range shooter. Boozer is a better mid-range shooter.

And those are just the starplayers. Haslem is a better mid-range shooter, and there are many more who are Lee's equal or better from 18 feet out.

***

Lesson time: Lee has not developed into a great offensive player. Since last season, team's strategy against the Knicks is to guard real offensive players and say: "Okay, let's see Lee and Duhon beat us." And the other team usually wins that bet.

If you don't believe me, next game, watch and see who faces real defense? Gallinari or Lee? Harrington or Lee? Robinson or Lee? Chandler or Lee? etc.

I guarantee you you will see that the defense does not focus on Lee but the other guys.

oohah

BRIGGS wrote:

oohah wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:
He expanded is offensive arsenal and has added a J. Did he shoot with range anywhere near as much? Did his assist move up by 33% He still played much closer to the basket last year. His expanded game leaves the opening to bring in a another big man. He doesnt need to score from point blank range. All of his arsenal is reliable. He is easily easily the best mid range jump shooting big in the nBA--not even close.

Lee added a jumper. He has not created an "arsenal" of offense. First, Lee always was an excellent layup artist and that is still where his strength is.

Second, please let's not start the Lee is the best midrange jump shooter. He is not even close. Garnett is a better mid-range shooter. Jamison is a better mid-range shooter. Durant is a better mid-range shooter. Nowitzki is a better mid-range shooter. Randolph is a better mid-range shooter. Boozer is a better mid-range shooter.

And those are just the starplayers. Haslem is a better mid-range shooter, and there are many more who are Lee's equal or better from 18 feet out.

***

Lesson time: Lee has not developed into a great offensive player. Since last season, team's strategy against the Knicks is to guard real offensive players and say: "Okay, let's see Lee and Duhon beat us." And the other team usually wins that bet.

If you don't believe me, next game, watch and see who faces real defense? Gallinari or Lee? Harrington or Lee? Robinson or Lee? Chandler or Lee? etc.

I guarantee you you will see that the defense does not focus on Lee but the other guys.

oohah

Look at the names you had to throw out there just to come into the conversation--lets take out Haslem because Miami would trade Haslem and 2 #1 picks for Lee in a minute. You need to put the best players in the league into the conversation of who is the best big man mid range jump shooter--and he happens to be have the highest FG% out of all of them and doesnt have the luxury of having a C like they do to take pressure off of them.

If Miami would do that, Walsh should be on the phone right now. Haslem is a solid PF, and if you throw in 2 picks, I give up Lee and save my cap space.

Lamarcus Aldridge, Juwan Howard, Channing Frye, Antonio McDyess, Pau Gasol, Nenad Krstic.

At this point you should just admit you are wrong.

I think you watch basketball BRIGGS so I'll let you think of some more for your own self.

oohah

BRIGGS wrote:

oohah wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Look at the names you had to throw out there just to come into the conversation--lets take out Haslem because Miami would trade Haslem and 2 #1 picks for Lee in a minute. You need to put the best players in the league into the conversation of who is the best big man mid range jump shooter--and he happens to be have the highest FG% out of all of them and doesnt have the luxury of having a C like they do to take pressure off of them.

Try to read the entire statement BRIGGS, your selective cognition is astounding.

First thing you say that Lee is the best mid-range big man in the league, but I prove to you it's not even close. So you're wrong about that. I just used star players because those are the easiest to name. Actually Lee is not even the best mid-range shooting big man on his own team. He is behind Harrington and Gallinari. Teams actually guard those guys on the perimeter unlike Lee.

Second, now you are trying to say that Miami would trade Haslem and 2 first rounders for Lee? Well that is just nonsense you made up off the top of your head. As a matter of fact, nobody is trading 2 first rounders for Lee except Knicks management. Actually, Haslem would probably put up similar numbers to Lee in this offense and actually play defense.

Third, I don't have time to go around to each team to find regular players with a better mid-range jump-shooter than Lee who are a similar height. Instead of wild knee-jerk comments think for a moment. What you say simply isn't close to being true. Kevin Love. Ryan Anderson. Beasley. Scola. The list goes on.

Just let Lee be a good player without the hyperbole.

oohah

oohah--Lee is shooting +55 % and you are telling me that Harrington and Gallo are better mid range shooters? Where is your evidence? These guys are low 40% shooters. If they could put up 20-12=4 56% on a nightly basis--they would--the problem is they dont have the ability to do it. Haslem has never avg more than 12 points and 9 rebounds David Lee avg a double double shooting 60% as back up his second year. Like I said Haslem could not put up 20+ 12-4 56% on any team in the NBA hes not good enough--we dont score an unusual amount of points to pump up anyone's stats --stats on this team are earned.

This is the NBA oohah--if yo can produce 20+ 12-4 and shoot 56% you are one helluva basketball player. There are only a few players capable of doing it and D Lee is one of them. He has one of if not the best mid range jump shot in basketball--his 56% shooting attests to it.

The problem with the Knicks is not David lee--we have multiple problems but David Lee is not one of them. Last night we had a 16 point lead--D Lee goes out and the team goes to hell very quickly. Dave is a VERY good player surrounded by mediocre players with no second big with little speed on the perimeter. It's funny but the one consistent bright spot takes the worst criticism--makes 0 sense

You cant pump up 55%. Rebounds? Maybe... he's the only big that works the boards, but he's been a good rebounder since his first summer league so thats not in question.

The best part about Lee is can anyone even tell me what his ceiling is? He didn take a mid range shot for his first 3 year. Now he's money from there. He was a hustle garbage guy when he came into the league. Now he handles and passes like a point forward. This guy is dedicated to getting better every year. He's surrounded by ****. If he was on the Cavs or Lakers he would be perrenial all star

oohah wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:
He expanded is offensive arsenal and has added a J. Did he shoot with range anywhere near as much? Did his assist move up by 33% He still played much closer to the basket last year. His expanded game leaves the opening to bring in a another big man. He doesnt need to score from point blank range. All of his arsenal is reliable. He is easily easily the best mid range jump shooting big in the nBA--not even close.

Lee added a jumper. He has not created an "arsenal" of offense. First, Lee always was an excellent layup artist and that is still where his strength is.

Second, please let's not start the Lee is the best midrange jump shooter. He is not even close. Garnett is a better mid-range shooter. Jamison is a better mid-range shooter. Durant is a better mid-range shooter. Nowitzki is a better mid-range shooter. Randolph is a better mid-range shooter. Boozer is a better mid-range shooter.

And those are just the starplayers. Haslem is a better mid-range shooter, and there are many more who are Lee's equal or better from 18 feet out.

***

Lesson time: Lee has not developed into a great offensive player. Since last season, team's strategy against the Knicks is to guard real offensive players and say: "Okay, let's see Lee and Duhon beat us." And the other team usually wins that bet.

If you don't believe me, next game, watch and see who faces real defense? Gallinari or Lee? Harrington or Lee? Robinson or Lee? Chandler or Lee? etc.

I guarantee you you will see that the defense does not focus on Lee but the other guys.

oohah

David Lee is absolutely a steal at the 30th pick. The only person drafted at that position who comes even remotely close to matching Lee’s production is Anderson Varejo and Varejo isn’t really that close. Chandler was also good pick. Outside of Aaron Brooks and Carl Landry, I can’t say there was anyone picked after Chandler that I’d rather have. Heck, outside Durant, Al Horford, Joachim Noah, Spencer Hawes and maybe Greg Oden, there isn’t anyone else who was picked ahead of Chandler that I’d rather have.