BRIGGS wrote:but if I had 34mm to spend--two of the guys coming in here next year would be Kyrylo Fesenko and C J Watson. Nice little 4 year 10mm $ deals for both--what is that 4 mm upfront of the 34 for both? I don't like the two max FA strategy unless we can get rid of Curry--and we can't[we'll I don't think we can. Every time I see Fesenko play--he impresses me. He's been underutilized--he might be the best kept secret in the NBA. I like active 7-1 300 pound players and boy do we need one. C J Watson is perhaps secret number 2. We need some young core foundation pieces to go along with a star athlete. We need young hungry inexpensive players who can play--but need the chance. I mean 10 years without a C--I think we are due.

I don't know if it's that Fesenko has simply been underutilized or if it has more to do with his foul problems. He is a good defender but constantly racks up fouls to the point that he usually gives up 2 fouls in under 10 minutes a game. With that said, I wouldn't mind taking a shot at him for a cheap deal as he could represent a low-risk, high-reward scenario. I wouldn't take a look at him though until I got a "no" from LeBron, Bosh, Wade, Amare, Boozer, etc. We don't have a large enough sample size to really see what this guy can do.

Watson can shoot but don't really see much out of him on the defensive side of things. If the plan is to sign him cheap and then trade him when his value goes up, that is fine with me. He would be a good fit in D'Antoni's offense because he can shoot the ball well and can score, but probably not the type of guard we need.

BRIGGS wrote:

iSergio wrote:You don't want LeBron James but you want to sign these scrubs?

Were not getting LeBron James--sorry no bailout Mr Dolan. Going to have to build a team. I really do not believe MDA is the guy for that but we'll see.

Maybe we won't get LeBron James. But the point is, YOU don't want LeBron James here. That is embarrassing.

Draft picks are great cheap franchise builders but don't always pan out. It's nice being able to draft a Kobe or a Duncan.

The stars are in free agency...they're not in #8 picks in 2011 and 2012 - which is exactly what we would be looking at - maybe worse for we would have signed someone this offseason to make us better so maybe we pick 12 or 14 or worse.

I'm sure Cosmic will not be happy if Houston lands one of these types with a pick:

Draft picks 10th or later:

2009
Brandon Jennings (10th '09)
Ty Lawson (18th '09)
Darren Collison (21st '09)
Omri Casspi (23rd '09)

2008
Brook Lopez (10th '08)
Bayless (11th)
Jason Thompson (12)
Anthony Randolph (14)
Hibbert (17)
George Hill (26)

2007

Aaron Brooks, Carl Landry, Stuckey, Chandler, Rudy Fernandez, Marc Gasol

2006

Rondo, Millsap

2005

Bynum, Granger, Lee, Monta Ellis

Out of these guys there are some legit stars or future stars.

Jennings, Lopez, Randolph, Gasol, Bynum, Granger, Lee, Ellis

Under normal circumstances it's a no brainer to try to sign ONE max guy this offseason with some pieces, then try to sign another max guy next season and hope to get lucky with some draft picks (cuz you need TONS of luck including deep drafts like '05).

Ex: Sign Bosh this offseason, Add Melo next offseason.

Get lucky and pray you land a Jennings/Rondo in the middle of the first round. Now you have Gallo, Chandler, 2 max FAs and some cheap young pieces you got through the draft.

This offseason is anything but normal. Lebron is a once in a lifetime player so now the choice isn't so obvious.

I haven't even really convinced myself either way so I don't see how anyone on this board is saying

"Oh the draft picks will not be that great anyway" or "Oh no we're doomed because we lost 2 picks" (Jordan Hill + 2012, we still at least have a 2011 pick)

Last night looked uuuuuuugly. Wake me up in July. I might just stop watching these games and adopt a team since I have league pass.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:Healthy amount of debate on the trade. I don't see how anyone can have so much conviction on the trade before we see how the FA situation plays out and what happens with our draft picks that Houston now has.

Draft picks are great cheap franchise builders but don't always pan out. It's nice being able to draft a Kobe or a Duncan.

The stars are in free agency...they're not in #8 picks in 2011 and 2012 - which is exactly what we would be looking at - maybe worse for we would have signed someone this offseason to make us better so maybe we pick 12 or 14 or worse.

I'm sure Cosmic will not be happy if Houston lands one of these types with a pick:

Draft picks 10th or later:

2009
Brandon Jennings (10th '09)
Ty Lawson (18th '09)
Darren Collison (21st '09)
Omri Casspi (23rd '09)

2008
Brook Lopez (10th '08)
Bayless (11th)
Jason Thompson (12)
Anthony Randolph (14)
Hibbert (17)
George Hill (26)

2007

Aaron Brooks, Carl Landry, Stuckey, Chandler, Rudy Fernandez, Marc Gasol

2006

Rondo, Millsap

2005

Bynum, Granger, Lee, Monta Ellis

Out of these guys there are some legit stars or future stars.

Jennings, Lopez, Randolph, Gasol, Bynum, Granger, Lee, Ellis

Under normal circumstances it's a no brainer to try to sign ONE max guy this offseason with some pieces, then try to sign another max guy next season and hope to get lucky with some draft picks (cuz you need TONS of luck including deep drafts like '05).

Ex: Sign Bosh this offseason, Add Melo next offseason.

Get lucky and pray you land a Jennings/Rondo in the middle of the first round. Now you have Gallo, Chandler, 2 max FAs and some cheap young pieces you got through the draft.

This offseason is anything but normal. Lebron is a once in a lifetime player so now the choice isn't so obvious.

I haven't even really convinced myself either way so I don't see how anyone on this board is saying

"Oh the draft picks will not be that great anyway" or "Oh no we're doomed because we lost 2 picks" (Jordan Hill + 2012, we still at least have a 2011 pick)

Last night looked uuuuuuugly. Wake me up in July. I might just stop watching these games and adopt a team since I have league pass.

If we have a 20% chance of getting Lebron, they are better odds than getting a star player in the draft in the 2-3 years with a pick thats 6-12. Unless you want to trade Chandler, Gallo, Lee, etc for NBDL players and picks to ensure we get 1-4 for the next 3 years, and even then you the best you might get is KMart, Bogut, Oden, Curry, Chanlder, Darko, etc etc

The lottery is luck, all luck. Who you draft is less luck, but still a ton of it. You can win the thing or go top 3 and still get hosed. Who would have thought Oden would be crap? Or that OK4 would be just another rotation guy?

At least if we win the lottery next year (sign a star FA) we know what we get. Give it one summer. If we are a 30 win team in 2010 then Walsh is just another in the path of Layden and Isiah.

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:
Stick with the draft? We arent bad enough, and this draft isnt good enough. Evan Turner and John Wall are nice players but they arent Lebron and Chris Paul. If your spot in the 2011 draft and kept your 2012 pick where are you picking? 8-12, even less a chance for a franchise guy. If your keeping Chandler, Lee, Hill, Gallo, etc your going to win 30 games or so because those guys arent that bad.

You act like this plan is a failure and thats not fair (yet).

Really? Those guys aren't that bad? We're not looking like we're getting to 30 with them and more (McGrady, Harrington).

fishmike wrote:go look at Walsh's career as a GM. Your going to tell me he's doing this on a wing and a prayer? Walsh is one of the NBAs more patient and dillegent GMs, if anything to a fault. If he's giving up future assets for cap space he's got some intel that tells him he's got a shot at one of these coveted players. If you know anything about Walsh its also that he has a backup plan.

You may not like it... my guess is it doesnt include BJ Mullens or Anthony Randolpoh (both having break out seasons)

But to not have any kind of an open mind is shortsighted and impatient. Any plan can fail, but this guy deserves a chance. Every plan has bumps and failures along the way, the good GMs find ways to recover. I'm not even an advocate of this guy. But its pretty clear what he's doing, and its worked before for other teams.

I hope your right. But, I think the thing your not factoring in is the owner - Dolan. And I think he's leaning on Walsh for results, and I think Walsh caved with a gamble because this is his last gig, and he wants to get paid. And Dolan pays people to say yes to him.

I think Walsh's back up plan is to max out 2nd tier talent and bail.

Thats pretty lame.

BUT

The point is we took a shot a shot at signing a star and gave ourselves the best chance to do so.

Why is that chance any different than swinging and missing in the lottery? EVERY team that has a franchise player whether it was via draft or FA had some luck. We need some.. I will certainly admit that. I dont think the luck we are hoping for is any more of a stretch than a tank and draft strategy. We have seen good GMs do that for 5-8 year stretchs and still suck.

Cosmic wrote:

TMS wrote:Plan B if we miss out on the top names in free agency is to go right back to starphuching our way in a desperate attempt at reaching the playoffs, let's be real about it... Dolan isn't gonna stand for another season of losing after all the moves we made to clear cap space to make a big splash this offseason... if Donnie's plan doesn't come to fruition, then be prepared for another 10 years of languishing in mediocrity because we're capped out with lesser stars that won't get us to top contention.

Well that is most likely. Gabriel when in Orlando kept clearing the roster space fora second run at Duncan and he really hurt that team by doing that. I don't think we do that here even though he is the orchestrator of clearing our cap.

That was the right strategy by Orlando, what happened was Grant Hill got hurt. Grant Hill was a top 5 player when they signed him. Hill and T-Mac were supposed to carry Orlando to a chip.

Childs2Dudley wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Cosmic wrote:

TMS wrote:Plan B if we miss out on the top names in free agency is to go right back to starphuching our way in a desperate attempt at reaching the playoffs, let's be real about it... Dolan isn't gonna stand for another season of losing after all the moves we made to clear cap space to make a big splash this offseason... if Donnie's plan doesn't come to fruition, then be prepared for another 10 years of languishing in mediocrity because we're capped out with lesser stars that won't get us to top contention.

Well that is most likely. Gabriel when in Orlando kept clearing the roster space fora second run at Duncan and he really hurt that team by doing that. I don't think we do that here even though he is the orchestrator of clearing our cap.

That was the right strategy by Orlando, what happened was Grant Hill got hurt. Grant Hill was a top 5 player when they signed him. Hill and T-Mac were supposed to carry Orlando to a chip.

Yep. That would have been an amazing duo.

Orl is a great example.

Like Jordon and Pippen part II, the Magic would have had 2 of the most skilled and versatile players in the league. Hill was a superstar. He was triple double any night. McGrady had the talent of anyone in the league. That team was set up for an 8 year run to the finals every year. All they needed was some decent role players. Now TMac got hurt alot and Hill never played at all. Bad luck. My point is that it was still a good plan, and it was well executed.

If we did get Lebron and he tears his knee up and never plays again thems the breaks. It wouldnt make getting cap space and giving up picks a bad choice by management. You cant control the outcomes in life. Only prepare and do the best you can.

Stars win in this league and its been documented here 1000000 times that is the hardest thing to get. Every team that gets one got at least a little lucky, but every team also had a chance. Drafting 8-14 every year isnt a chance. Getting max cap space for 2 players in a year where Lebron, Wade, Dirk, Amare and Jerome James gives us a chance. Add to the fact that Lebron has not been shy about his affection for the city it just adds to the drama. Summer of 2010 is our lottery. If we miss we miss... but at least we got to play.

Cosmic wrote:

franco12 wrote:

My plan B was to keep Jefferies, Hill and my draft picks, and then if I struck out, maybe resign Lee to a reasonable deal, adn start rebuilding the right way, by trying to land my franchise player like every other team- through the draft.

But Dolan is impatient, and maybe Walsh knows something.

But the direction of this franchise, I am close to becoming not a fan. And that is an interesting process.

We could have gone this route except that Jeffries and Hill were taking up nearly 10M in very coveted cap space. So coveted that if we did land a big name FA this summer we wouldn't even be able to keep David Lee after signing that player.

So we needed to do this no matter what.

Besides, you really need to look at what we sent out:

Jeffries - bum.
Hill - bum.
2011 right to swap - could prove interesting but the Rockets aren't good and we will be a better team next year as well so any swap that may happen will be negligible. Like 3-4 spots in the draft order at best. Swapping the 15th and 18th picks - something like that.
2012 pick - by now, June 2012, we will be fielding a playoff team, and possibly a very good one at that, so this pick will be quite Balkman like.

The plan was to build through free agency and not continue to try to hope we landed top draft picks and then hope those picks became franchise building blocks.

That isn't the most sound of plans...especially when you have all these super talented free agents for the taking.

We're also loaded with role players - we need STAR power. You don't get that picking in the draft where we had been the past few years - and would have most certainly continued to pick the following two years.

The stars are in free agency...they're not in #8 picks in 2011 and 2012 - which is exactly what we would be looking at - maybe worse for we would have signed someone this offseason to make us better so maybe we pick 12 or 14 or worse.

Would that have been worth giving up the chance to make a killing this summer?

I don't think so.

Exactly. Hope is not an actionable strategy.
We have a shot at two max players compared to hoping
for a greatv draft. How you guys can diss this trade escapes me.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:getting lucky with FAs vs. getting lucky with draft picks..

pretty good arguments could be made with plenty of historical evidence for each side.

i think the draft camp's main point is we could've done BOTH by singing a FA this offseason AND the next AND having picks.

anyone can see what you guys are saying has legitimacy. if we don't have max cap space for 2 FAs then our chances of even landing ONE are slim to none.

either way things are looking up. i wouldn't have had a problem staying pat either.

The point is you get lucky by not trading your picks. Look at Atlanta who had seems to be 50/50 at drafting. They picked Josh Smith and Al Horford but also drafted Sheldon Williams and Marvin Williams. Even if you suck at drafting you get lucky every once in awhile.