Nalod wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

s3231 wrote:Hill was not ready to be a part of the rotation at the beginning of the season. Simple as that. As a coach, you have to give your players incentive to work hard and while Hill's background doesn't suggest he is lazy by any means, it seems like Jordan has been putting in even more work since that game in Houston when Landry got the nod over him. He is starting to show promise and D'Antoni is starting to reward him for that. I agree though, now that the Knicks are essentially out of the playoff race and Jordan is starting to play consistently well, D'Antoni should look to give him a bigger role.

I just don't think it is right to put all the blame on D'Antoni in this situation. If you look lost on a basketball court in garbage time, you don't deserve a spot in the rotation.

this wasnt a playoff team anyway. what was gained by delaying him getting mins?

You know that now. But not everyone knew our team was not to be in the post season then.

Should have said somthing earlier to MDA and let him know!

as a fan, i thought this was a team lucky to win 30 games before the season started (hey, what i posted in the prediction thread!!!)...

nixluva wrote:MDA's job is 1st to try and win games! Then he has to also develop the talent we have that is still learning. This idea that he should've realized that this team couldn't win is silly. Even right now as we speak the team is only 4.5 games back. ANYTHING an happen between now and the end of the season. It's still too early to give up on the season and just play the kids. Besides even when you do this you want to try to win games, so if the kids are looking lost it's not a good thing to just play them anyway. They need to LEARN how to play better and fix the mistakes they're making. Sometimes you need to take them out of the rotation, work that out in practice and then try to get them back in real games when they've shown improvement in practice.

I like Hill and TD and I think they should play, but you don't just give them Carte Blanche from the start of the season if they haven't earned it.

when most of this team isnt going to be here next year or i hope in the next few weeks, how is waiting to get the picks playing helping the future team? another post referenced some other teams that took some lumps by playing young guys and those young guys learned from it. i dont think nyk young guys are as good as okc/mem young guys, still... i would rather find out now what these guys need major work on then during 2010-11. practice is great, real game time exposure is better.

nixluva wrote:I have no problem with MDA going with the kids if they are saying they've given up on the season and aren't trying to win games anymore. Then you go into full rebuild mode and you don't care about W/L's. We apparently haven't reached that point and I believe many of the players still want to try and win and get in the playoff race again. 4.5 games out there's still a shot, so I don't see them giving up yet.

in my view, a reason folks are upset with the coach/fo is that they should have been in full rebuild mode anyway. quite a number of the guys playing could walk for nothing for 2010-11 and then what? whos left is the young guys plus other pickups. whats the gain from making the playoffs with a team that most fans (and i bet FO/coach) dont want to see here again? i can see FAs may like it, yet they would want to see who is gonna be left and are they any good maybe... its a tough read for sure, yet if hill/td/gallo/chandler/landry looked real good, wouldnt that be attractive to FAs as well?

nixluva wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

nixluva wrote:I have no problem with MDA going with the kids if they are saying they've given up on the season and aren't trying to win games anymore. Then you go into full rebuild mode and you don't care about W/L's. We apparently haven't reached that point and I believe many of the players still want to try and win and get in the playoff race again. 4.5 games out there's still a shot, so I don't see them giving up yet.

in my view, a reason folks are upset with the coach/fo is that they should have been in full rebuild mode anyway. quite a number of the guys playing could walk for nothing for 2010-11 and then what? whos left is the young guys plus other pickups. whats the gain from making the playoffs with a team that most fans (and i bet FO/coach) dont want to see here again? i can see FAs may like it, yet they would want to see who is gonna be left and are they any good maybe... its a tough read for sure, yet if hill/td/gallo/chandler/landry looked real good, wouldnt that be attractive to FAs as well?

Thing is that at the start of the year none of those guys was really ready to take on any major role, so MDA went with vets and trimmed the rotation and it worked for a while. I can't blame him for continuing to go with that. MDA feels that winning was more beneficial for the kids to be around and learn from than just being given playing time and losing badly. The idea made sense when the team was playing better. Now everyone can second guess cuz we've started losing again. When we were just inches from the number 8 seed it wasn't so clear that we should be playing the kids from the start. Only now is it suddenly so obvious.

as a fan, it made sense to me to get them playing early. they are gonna be here unless traded. if they cant play or struggle in more prominent roles next year, what did sitting them help do? as noted, getting them playing may show they were the wrong moves, and id rather get some idea of that now rather than later. winning while riding the pine wont help hill play better d against very good competition, or td playing a diff role he may have had in college.

as far as winning and second guessing, they started out awful, played ok, and are playing bad to below avg again. like that hasnt been seen before with the nyk...

TMS wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

nixluva wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

nixluva wrote:I have no problem with MDA going with the kids if they are saying they've given up on the season and aren't trying to win games anymore. Then you go into full rebuild mode and you don't care about W/L's. We apparently haven't reached that point and I believe many of the players still want to try and win and get in the playoff race again. 4.5 games out there's still a shot, so I don't see them giving up yet.

in my view, a reason folks are upset with the coach/fo is that they should have been in full rebuild mode anyway. quite a number of the guys playing could walk for nothing for 2010-11 and then what? whos left is the young guys plus other pickups. whats the gain from making the playoffs with a team that most fans (and i bet FO/coach) dont want to see here again? i can see FAs may like it, yet they would want to see who is gonna be left and are they any good maybe... its a tough read for sure, yet if hill/td/gallo/chandler/landry looked real good, wouldnt that be attractive to FAs as well?

Thing is that at the start of the year none of those guys was really ready to take on any major role, so MDA went with vets and trimmed the rotation and it worked for a while. I can't blame him for continuing to go with that. MDA feels that winning was more beneficial for the kids to be around and learn from than just being given playing time and losing badly. The idea made sense when the team was playing better. Now everyone can second guess cuz we've started losing again. When we were just inches from the number 8 seed it wasn't so clear that we should be playing the kids from the start. Only now is it suddenly so obvious.

as a fan, it made sense to me to get them playing early. they are gonna be here unless traded. if they cant play or struggle in more prominent roles next year, what did sitting them help do? as noted, getting them playing may show they were the wrong moves, and id rather get some idea of that now rather than later. winning while riding the pine wont help hill play better d against very good competition, or td playing a diff role he may have had in college.

as far as winning and second guessing, they started out awful, played ok, and are playing bad to below avg again. like that hasnt been seen before with the nyk...

sidsanders, please stop annoying nixluva with your unreasonable criticisms.

sooooorryyy... at least this board isnt like this:

ive been on boards with crap EXACTLY like this vid...

edit: prob nsfw...

sidsanders wrote:

nixluva wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

nixluva wrote:I have no problem with MDA going with the kids if they are saying they've given up on the season and aren't trying to win games anymore. Then you go into full rebuild mode and you don't care about W/L's. We apparently haven't reached that point and I believe many of the players still want to try and win and get in the playoff race again. 4.5 games out there's still a shot, so I don't see them giving up yet.

in my view, a reason folks are upset with the coach/fo is that they should have been in full rebuild mode anyway. quite a number of the guys playing could walk for nothing for 2010-11 and then what? whos left is the young guys plus other pickups. whats the gain from making the playoffs with a team that most fans (and i bet FO/coach) dont want to see here again? i can see FAs may like it, yet they would want to see who is gonna be left and are they any good maybe... its a tough read for sure, yet if hill/td/gallo/chandler/landry looked real good, wouldnt that be attractive to FAs as well?

Thing is that at the start of the year none of those guys was really ready to take on any major role, so MDA went with vets and trimmed the rotation and it worked for a while. I can't blame him for continuing to go with that. MDA feels that winning was more beneficial for the kids to be around and learn from than just being given playing time and losing badly. The idea made sense when the team was playing better. Now everyone can second guess cuz we've started losing again. When we were just inches from the number 8 seed it wasn't so clear that we should be playing the kids from the start. Only now is it suddenly so obvious.

as a fan, it made sense to me to get them playing early. they are gonna be here unless traded. if they cant play or struggle in more prominent roles next year, what did sitting them help do? as noted, getting them playing may show they were the wrong moves, and id rather get some idea of that now rather than later. winning while riding the pine wont help hill play better d against very good competition, or td playing a diff role he may have had in college.

as far as winning and second guessing, they started out awful, played ok, and are playing bad to below avg again. like that hasnt been seen before with the nyk...

good post.. I have said the same thing on this board plenty of times.. I mean, what are we trying to accomplish here? next year, guys like hill, douglas and gallo are going to be thrust into roles in which they should have been playing this year and getting all the rough edges smoothed out...we are pretty much wasting an entire year of development with these kids..

sidsanders wrote:

tkf wrote:good post.. I have said the same thing on this board plenty of times.. I mean, what are we trying to accomplish here? next year, guys like hill, douglas and gallo are going to be thrust into roles in which they should have been playing this year and getting all the rough edges smoothed out...we are pretty much wasting an entire year of development with these kids..

i can see a bit how making the playoffs may be useful: perhaps FA's will like it, show young guys what winning is like. still, doing that with guys who more than likely wont be back helps how? the draft pick is gone, winning to lessen the pain of its loss isnt going to help if it means going into next year with tons of questions. it is also possible that FA's will look at a potential team and say: the young guys stink or are complete unknowns, do i wanna go there? does making the playoffs with guys who wont be my teammates influence me?

oh I agree, making the playoffs is always a good thing if you ask me, but making a proper assesment of this team, does anyone think this is a playoff team? yea, chicago or toronto can fall to pieces and that would give the knicks a window, but honestly what are we playing for? especially when most of the guys here will be gone next year as you said... The pick is not longer ours, so need to even think about that any more.. just thank god we own our picks from here on out..

TMS wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

TMS wrote:making the playoffs was a worthwhile pursuit this season, but that dream ended a while ago... this team completely tanked during a stretch of games against bad teams where they really should have made a major push to set themselves up for the stretch run against some much tougher competition... the #1 priority can no longer be trying to compete this season... we need to shift our focus on developing our 2 rookies this year so we can see if they can fill holes for next season, or if roster moves need to be made to fill those holes... if we go into next year still not knowing if Jordan Hill & Toney Douglas can have longterm futures on this team & fail to make the playoffs, then what the hell have we accomplished this season?

my take on the playoffs is that they didnt guarantee that any FA would care. if i was up for FA and saw a team with a bunch of cats who are not gonna be back make the playoffs and be out in the 1st round, why would that influence me? i would want to see who was going to be back, what long term plans they had for other talent pickups, where other big names might go, and of course $$$. winning may help, though for sure as you and others note, getting the talent that WILL be here up to speed i think would help attract FA's far more than some 1st round smoking at the hands of orl, bos or cle. broken record i guess.... and its my take, so folks dont have to flame me for assuming what an FA is thinking...

i actually agree that developing the youth should have been our main focus going into the season but i can understand why making the playoffs might have gotten potential FA's to take notice... at least it shows the franchise is on the upswing & things are changing for the better... also gets some of the players that will be here past this season some national exposure in meaningful games... i got no problems w/people who wanted to make the playoffs coming into this year... what kills me are people who still think this team has what it takes to still make a run after the gutless way they lost to teams like the T'Wolves, Wizards, Nets & Bucks in recent weeks... we're 12 freakin games under .500 with 32 games left to play... i'm no math wiz but my calculations tell me it's gonna take us playing like the LA Lakers from here on out to even sniff a chance at sneaking in with a #8 seed.

if it was a borderline playoff team with the young guys (not just dg/wc) playing critical mins, i would agree it shows the team is on the rise. as it stands now, the push this team was making was with mainly a vet crew who a vast majority probably wont be back. any momentum gained by a playoff run goes out the window if lee/nate/jj/duhon/hughes/harrington/etc are gone. this isnt saying those guys are great, those are they guys who get tons o mins (as you know )... in some cases they wont be gone unless traded (jj/curry, pleeeeease get them outta here). 2 young guys (dg/wc) get mins and both still have improvements i think we all hope they can make.

im not convinced a playoff run would mean much with the current guys getting the main focus, unless many of the guys are reupped and thats a non starter for me as a fan. i do think a playoff run woulda been more of the same that layden/thomas tried. mix in vets with a few young guys, and hope for the best rather than blow this bastage up and start over. we have seen that flick and it ends the same. note, im not suggesting you are saying this... i just really see very little upside to a playoff run with this teams makeup and playing time distro.

sidsanders wrote:if it was a borderline playoff team with the young guys (not just dg/wc) playing critical mins, i would agree it shows the team is on the rise. as it stands now, the push this team was making was with mainly a vet crew who a vast majority probably wont be back. any momentum gained by a playoff run goes out the window if lee/nate/jj/duhon/hughes/harrington/etc are gone. this isnt saying those guys are great, those are they guys who get tons o mins (as you know )... in some cases they wont be gone unless traded (jj/curry, pleeeeease get them outta here). 2 young guys (dg/wc) get mins and both still have improvements i think we all hope they can make.

im not convinced a playoff run would mean much with the current guys getting the main focus, unless many of the guys are reupped and thats a non starter for me as a fan. i do think a playoff run woulda been more of the same that layden/thomas tried. mix in vets with a few young guys, and hope for the best rather than blow this bastage up and start over. we have seen that flick and it ends the same. note, im not suggesting you are saying this... i just really see very little upside to a playoff run with this teams makeup and playing time distro.

we both are in agreement on this... developing the youth really should have been our #1 priority coming into the season, playoffs be damned.

Andrew wrote:

TMS wrote:we both are in agreement on this... developing the youth really should have been our #1 priority coming into the season, playoffs be damned.

While I like the idea of developing the youth, I think Walsh and MDA owe the 2 guys they convinced to take playoff related bonuses an honest effort to get the team into the playoffs.

i think they did give them an honest show of faith this season & they failed to deliver... it's time to consider other options... the playoffs is no longer a viable goal for this team... we need to go 22W-10L the rest of the way to have any realistic shot at making the postseason Andrew... it's not gonna happen... at some point u need to know when to cut your losses & salvage whatever u can out of another failed season... right now, developing the young guys & featuring guys we want to try & trade at the deadline is really the only things we can lay our hats on.