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Regarding D Lee
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fishmike
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12/16/2009  2:36 PM
thats what makes Lee great. Lee doesnt NEED to get touches. He doesnt demand the ball. He doesnt demand shots. He goes out and hustles. He's a great passer, has a high BB IQ and cleans the glass. He takes whatever shots the defense gives him and gets his offense by right play right time type shot opportunities, and he does so at 18ppg and at 57% shooting. Focus on whatever makes you happy.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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Rookie
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12/16/2009  2:40 PM
so is Lee an 8M dollar guy or a 12M dollar guy? 5 years 60M is steep even if he is having a good year. We could of just kept Zach Randolph
markvmc
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12/16/2009  2:42 PM
Lee is very good at the pick and roll, and at finishing around the basket. He is by no stretch of the imagination great.
TMS
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12/16/2009  2:44 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/16/2009  2:47 PM
fish, i'm trying to focus on the team, not on any individual player... this has nothing to do w/any personal fetish or dislike for any particular guy, it's a general approach to building the best possible team that can most realistically bring us championships in the near future.

hell even in baseball where there's no salary cap, sometimes u gotta make sacrifices & let players u love go for the good of the future of the franchise... it's obviously not easy putting teams together if it were GM's would have a much longer shelf life in professional sports... not every move that's made is gonna work out & not every move is gonna go over well w/the fanbase, but GM's don't get paid to make fans happy, they get paid to try & maximize the money the spend in putting together the best winning formula.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Knixkik
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12/16/2009  2:45 PM
fishmike wrote:thats what makes Lee great. Lee doesnt NEED to get touches. He doesnt demand the ball. He doesnt demand shots. He goes out and hustles. He's a great passer, has a high BB IQ and cleans the glass. He takes whatever shots the defense gives him and gets his offense by right play right time type shot opportunities, and he does so at 18ppg and at 57% shooting. Focus on whatever makes you happy.

Exactly right. Put him next to a star creator and his efficiency skyrockets as he could likely be around 20 ppg at 60% from the field. He has one major flaw in his game. He won't ever be great at D but he will get better at positioning. How do i know this? Every time he focuses on improving a flaw, he usually comes back the next season with it almost being a strength. He IQ is there and he's not limited whatsoever athletically. Typically players are missing one of 3 things, athleticism, IQ, or work ethic. Lee has all 3 so he will get better, and probably find ways to improve his game for the next 6-8 years.
Knixkik
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12/16/2009  2:47 PM
Rookie wrote:so is Lee an 8M dollar guy or a 12M dollar guy? 5 years 60M is steep even if he is having a good year. We could of just kept Zach Randolph

In terms of putting a player on the floor who is going to help you win, Lee is much better than Randolph, it's not even a comparison. 29 out of 30 GMs in the league would prefer Lee at a reasoable contract (8-9M) or Randolph at the same price.

Rookie
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12/16/2009  2:51 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/16/2009  2:52 PM
Knixkik wrote:
Rookie wrote:so is Lee an 8M dollar guy or a 12M dollar guy? 5 years 60M is steep even if he is having a good year. We could of just kept Zach Randolph

In terms of putting a player on the floor who is going to help you win, Lee is much better than Randolph, it's not even a comparison. 29 out of 30 GMs in the league would prefer Lee at a reasoable contract (8-9M) or Randolph at the same price.

And you can name all the winning teams Lee and Randolph have played on? My point is, Lee isn't signing for that, trade him now and get something for him...or get nothing later except maybe another contract like Randolph's

TMS
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12/16/2009  2:54 PM
Knixkik wrote:
Rookie wrote:so is Lee an 8M dollar guy or a 12M dollar guy? 5 years 60M is steep even if he is having a good year. We could of just kept Zach Randolph

In terms of putting a player on the floor who is going to help you win, Lee is much better than Randolph, it's not even a comparison. 29 out of 30 GMs in the league would prefer Lee at a reasoable contract (8-9M) or Randolph at the same price.

i agree, i would rather have Lee over Zach anyday, but i seriously doubt he'll sign for anything less than $10-11M per... at that point u have to decide if he's worth sacrificing in other areas of need to hold onto... this is where the argument lies in essence... everyone seems to have varying degrees of what they're willing to give up in order to make a certain goal reachable... personally for me i'd give up every player on this team including Gallo right now if it meant we'd have at least a realistic chance at winning a championship in the next 5 years.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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12/16/2009  3:11 PM
I would bet that GM's would take Zach as well if his contract were for 8M
Knixkik
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12/16/2009  3:22 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/16/2009  3:22 PM
Rookie wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Rookie wrote:so is Lee an 8M dollar guy or a 12M dollar guy? 5 years 60M is steep even if he is having a good year. We could of just kept Zach Randolph

In terms of putting a player on the floor who is going to help you win, Lee is much better than Randolph, it's not even a comparison. 29 out of 30 GMs in the league would prefer Lee at a reasoable contract (8-9M) or Randolph at the same price.

And you can name all the winning teams Lee and Randolph have played on? My point is, Lee isn't signing for that, trade him now and get something for him...or get nothing later except maybe another contract like Randolph's

Randolph has had many chances and he's not a winning player. If you're perception of a winning player means they have to play for a winning team, then you're right, Lee hasn't proven to be a winning player. But let's not forget these are the Knicks, who's poor management decisions would clearly override any winning talent they actually brought in along the way. Winning teams want Lee at a reasonable price because they recognize what he brings to the table. And not as a 6th man, he would start on most teams in the league. He's not one of those players you judge based on his record thus far in the league, because you and i know that's not a fair assessment whatsoever. Bottom line is, the guy cares and plays the right way, and has a lot of talent on top of it.

Knixkik
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12/16/2009  3:28 PM
Also, if the Knicks offered Lee a backloaded contract because that's what fit into the budget with the addition of more talent, i think Lee would happily accept. It seems to me he wants to be here and will take a pay cut to be here if he knows he's going to win. It won't be a big pay cut, probably along the lines of a backloaded 5 year deal at $50M as opposed to a more spread out $55M contract that someone else may offer him. If you're not talking about a lot of difference, i think he stays in new york with the understanding that they need all the extra money possible to rebuild. If he's offered 5 years at $60M, he will probably take it, but i see his max being an average of 11 per year where i think it's fair for us to give him average of 10 per year starting at about 8.
Rookie
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12/16/2009  3:30 PM
Just based on a small sampling of Lee's contract negotiations over the summer...he's not going to sign for 8-9M and it could drag on until he is gone for nothing. Since re-signing isn't going to be our first priority, he's likely gone. I think the premier FA's will likely sign early and we should trade Lee now, he is our best commodity for a trade. Expiring's and a first rounder, use him to trade JJ/Curry or just to improve the team for the future. I do not want a Lee for 5 years 60M, sorry
Rookie
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12/16/2009  3:32 PM
I'd rather see us do a sign and trade. We need to maintain cap flexibility and he will kill it.
Knixkik
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12/16/2009  3:48 PM
He definitely won't kill flexibility because we can manage his situation however we want. We will be able to gauge what the major FAs are doing early in July. Once that is established, we either don't resign him because we just spent all our money on multiple big name FAs, we resign him at a reasonable contract along with one max FA because he wants to be here, or he waits out the free agency period to see if he can land an extra 2 million a year from someone. I'm not sure if i see him doing that because he wants to be here long term and just wants a good contract. Remember, he wanted to resign here long term early, we just didn't want to give him multiple years. There is no reason to believe he wouldn't have excepted 8-9 per year. I think him and Walsh agreed on his value, and at most we end up retaining him for 10 per year, but no more. The only team i can see spending as much or more on him is NJ, because they could put him next to Lopez and could strike out in free agency. They may get anxious and sign him which he will accept because he wouldn't really have to relocate. Other than that, he resigns with new york for a fair contract because he wants to finally win here.
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12/16/2009  4:00 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/16/2009  4:01 PM
In two of your three examples, we have to release his cap hold. In one example, we re-sign him and 1 max FA. At his age, he's looking for a multi year deal for max dollars. I just don't see that happening here. I say, if we can use him now, or later in a sign and trade, to move JJ and sign 2 max FA's that's the way to go. I think letting Lebron play next to Bosh would be the best way to entice Lebron to come hear...otherwise we just look like the Mets and we could see things turn out alot like the way they did this summer with Jason Kidd, Grant Hill etc.... Also his agent wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't shop him around for the best deal. I just don't see us being able to re-sign him for 50M. I would however seriously consider signing him at 40M
fishmike
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12/16/2009  4:23 PM
TMS wrote:fish, i'm trying to focus on the team, not on any individual player... this has nothing to do w/any personal fetish or dislike for any particular guy, it's a general approach to building the best possible team that can most realistically bring us championships in the near future.

hell even in baseball where there's no salary cap, sometimes u gotta make sacrifices & let players u love go for the good of the future of the franchise... it's obviously not easy putting teams together if it were GM's would have a much longer shelf life in professional sports... not every move that's made is gonna work out & not every move is gonna go over well w/the fanbase, but GM's don't get paid to make fans happy, they get paid to try & maximize the money the spend in putting together the best winning formula.

please explain to me how blowing $17mm on one guy (Bosh) who has played 6 of his 7 seasons on losing teams and signing him would surely mean saying goodbye to homegrown far more economically effecient players is "focusing on the team." I dont see it or get it. If I have to lose Lee to sign Lebron hey.. thems the breaks, no problem. Bosh isnt sniffing Lebron's nutsack when it comes to talent or impact. Bosh is a lot closer to Lee than to Lebron as far as player caliber.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Knixkik
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12/16/2009  5:00 PM
The caphold thing is irrelevant, i really don't see what it matters. What this is going to come down to is what big name FA we sign and who is the best fit next to them. Again, i fail to see the major difference between lee and bosh or lee and amare. They are better players of course, but how much better? Better so that we get rid of a homegrown talent that is much more durable, relies more on skill and less on athletic ability, and continues to improve every year, while taking much less money? It's going to be a tough call. Once again i will reiterate, if lebron says jump, we will say 'how high' but if he is for resigning lee at a good price which i know he would be, then you are making the right move.
fishmike
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12/16/2009  5:10 PM
Rookie wrote:Just based on a small sampling of Lee's contract negotiations over the summer...he's not going to sign for 8-9M and it could drag on until he is gone for nothing. Since re-signing isn't going to be our first priority, he's likely gone. I think the premier FA's will likely sign early and we should trade Lee now, he is our best commodity for a trade. Expiring's and a first rounder, use him to trade JJ/Curry or just to improve the team for the future. I do not want a Lee for 5 years 60M, sorry

how do you figure? Lee wasnt offered ANYTHING by Knick management. Finally they gave him a very generous $7mm instead of his $3mm (ish) QO offer.

All Lee said was that he wanted to stay, wanted to be a Knick and wanted a fair contract.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Knixkik
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12/16/2009  5:33 PM
Exactly, lee will accept what he sees as a fair offer from the Knicks. He will definitely get other offers this year, it won't be like last summer, but he will resign with the Knicks if their offer is in the ballpark of what he expects and what others are offering. Other things that are overlooked about lee are his durability and his ability to fit into the team concept. These are question marks of both bosh and stoudamire.
Rookie
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12/16/2009  5:57 PM
Knixkik wrote:The caphold thing is irrelevant, i really don't see what it matters. What this is going to come down to is what big name FA we sign and who is the best fit next to them. Again, i fail to see the major difference between lee and bosh or lee and amare. They are better players of course, but how much better? Better so that we get rid of a homegrown talent that is much more durable, relies more on skill and less on athletic ability, and continues to improve every year, while taking much less money? It's going to be a tough call. Once again i will reiterate, if lebron says jump, we will say 'how high' but if he is for resigning lee at a good price which i know he would be, then you are making the right move.

not a cap expert, but once we renounce him, we have to resign him under the cap and can not go over it. Look, I think what you're saying is that you want a max FA and Lee...and that's OK. There's lots of Lee fans on her. The plan as I know it is to get max cap space and if we can move JJ and/or Curry we could sign two max FA's. Two max FA's with 5 year deals is what I'm on board with and if dealing Lee gets it done or even lands us a lottery pick then sianara baby.

Regarding D Lee

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