franco12 wrote:

arkrud wrote:

franco12 wrote:D Lee is a bit like Kurt Thomas. Very good at what he does, but by far not the complete package.

Who said he is? And why he should be?
He is not a lottary pick, he is not a max player, he is not even payed the medium salary for starting PF.
He is perfect for MDA type team and top-end role player.
we have a lot of problems but Lee is not the problem at all.

Lee and his agent did this off season when they insisted on $12mm per and did not sign the deal Walsh initially, I thought offered- the 4 years, $32mm.

The problem we have with Lee is the same we had with KT - they're playing out of position, and being asked to start.

Lee will never get more that 8 mils per year unless he will become complete player.
If he will (with some other team) everybody on this board will start crying we lost the opportunity.
If not (on our team) everybody will cry he is a bust.
Bunch of crying babies you are...

He's listed at 6'9 so he's not giving up 6 inches too often and he's never shown he can cover power forwards either. His rebounding is important but he's not a good one-on-one defender or help defender.

You can win with him but you need players and a system that makes up for his weaknesses.

TMS wrote:

Markji wrote:Lee has 1.4 steals/game. That's second best on the Knicks. (Hughes has 1.8 steals/game and he is considered an excellent defensive player)
Lee leads the team with 10.1 reb/game. Another defensive stat.
Lee scores 18pts/game - 2nd best on the team behind Harrington with 19.9
Lee also is excellent in boxing out his man. He fights hard under the basket and plays with lots of energy.

Lee doesn't block many shots and isn't good on help defense when someone drives by their man.
Just get over it. If Lee did that well also, he'd be getting a max contract.

why should Knick fans get over the fact that he's a crappy defender? we all acknowledge that he's a terrific rebounder & finisher at the rim, & he's a very good outlet passer as well as an intelligent player on the offensive end...

NOT EVERYONE ACKNOWLEDGES THIS BUT I AM GLAD YOU DO. Scoring and rebounding like DLee does isn't easy. If it were easy, then many PF and C would have double-doubles. EDDY would have 10 rebounds/game.

if ur gonna cite his strengths u also gotta be willing to point out his weaknesses too, no?

IMO if D Lee would just throw his body into the lane every once in a while to draw a charge it would at least show me a willingness to play defense... right now the way he backs away from contact whenever someone drives to the lane with his jazz hands in the air, i've never seen anything quite like it.

When he backs away from contact -
Lee is as physical as anyone under the boards. He is not soft.

Many times I see him continue to guard and box out his own man when an opposing player drives the lane.

Advantage of this - Lee's man won't be in position to:
1. get a pass from the driving player for an easy dunk because no one is guarding him;
2. get a rebound on a missed shot. Lee will get the rebound.

You may not like this style of his game, but that is how he plays. We do need someone to play alongside DLee who can block shots. We were hoping for Darko to fill that role. or Hill. Whatever happened to Darko?? Also, we need better perimeter D. After all, it isn't Lee's fault that so many players drive the lane on us. Tony D should help with that.

You are right. This is DLee's weakness. He is not good at stopping someone driving the lane. But to me, his strengths far outweigh his weaknesses. My point is - everyone isn't great at every aspect of the game. If they are, they are a superstar! DLee isn't a superstar. He is however, a very good player. To say he doesn't even try is not correct. He plays as hard as anyone on the court. But stopping someone driving the lane isn't his game.

TRU
If he would give 3 of 4 good, hard fouls a game, opposing players would start to respect his presence in the paint.

Cosmic wrote:

Markji wrote:Lee has 1.4 steals/game. That's second best on the Knicks. (Hughes has 1.8 steals/game and he is considered an excellent defensive player)
Lee leads the team with 10.1 reb/game. Another defensive stat.
Lee scores 18pts/game - 2nd best on the team behind Harrington with 19.9
Lee also is excellent in boxing out his man. He fights hard under the basket and plays with lots of energy.

Lee doesn't block many shots and isn't good on help defense when someone drives by their man.
Just get over it. If Lee did that well also, he'd be getting a max contract.

And Lee gives up double all those stats to the opposition.

I don't care how many double doubles the guy gets. He gives them all up and more on the other end every night. That's what we call a net loss. You don't win that way. Lee is fine as a fourth or fifth best player on a team. When he's arguably the best or second best player you are going to lose a lot of games.

Lee belongs on the bench of a good team for 20 minutes a night or alongside a top 3 big man as a starting PF. Anything less will result in failure.

Lee is 29th in the league in scoring at 18 ppg. And has 10.1 rebounds/game.
Of the 28 guys who score more than Lee, only 5 have equal to or more rebounds/game.

Chris Bosh 24.4/12.1
Carlos Boozer 21/11.1
Tim Duncan 18.9/10.8
Andrew Bynum 18.5/10.1
Dwight Howard 18.1/12.1

David Lee is in very elite company with his double/doubles. It isn't easy to do.
And nobody has double the stats that Lee puts up as you are saying. Lee isn't a total player as he lacks shot-blocking ability. But he is very good at what he does.

Lee doesn't belong on the bench on a good team. He would start. But a "Good Team" will have other players who will cover Lee's weakness - shot-blocker inside.

BRIGGS wrote:

Cosmic wrote:

Markji wrote:Lee has 1.4 steals/game. That's second best on the Knicks. (Hughes has 1.8 steals/game and he is considered an excellent defensive player)
Lee leads the team with 10.1 reb/game. Another defensive stat.
Lee scores 18pts/game - 2nd best on the team behind Harrington with 19.9
Lee also is excellent in boxing out his man. He fights hard under the basket and plays with lots of energy.

Lee doesn't block many shots and isn't good on help defense when someone drives by their man.
Just get over it. If Lee did that well also, he'd be getting a max contract.

And Lee gives up double all those stats to the opposition.

I don't care how many double doubles the guy gets. He gives them all up and more on the other end every night. That's what we call a net loss. You don't win that way. Lee is fine as a fourth or fifth best player on a team. When he's arguably the best or second best player you are going to lose a lot of games.

Lee belongs on the bench of a good team for 20 minutes a night or alongside a top 3 big man as a starting PF. Anything less will result in failure.

This is crazy thinking. What D Lee needs is a player with some length next to him. D Lee's is a legit 18/19--10-11.5 rebound man 55%+ who is also a good passer and plays very smart. His stats are not inflated by some system--in fact they are LOWER than they could be because he only plays 33 minutes a night. He would EASILY be over 20+ and 12 + if he was given that extra 7 minutes. His he a great defender--no but lets put that in perspective--he's a solid DEFENSIVE rebounder and he is forced to play undersized against his individual opponent. IF we had another two or three good pieces including a lengthy 7 footer who could play next to him at times--we would be much better and a really good player like Lee would not be singled out. Defense starts with pressure on the ball
--we don't really have that unless Douglas is playing and I would personally like to see Hill be gIVEN a chance to start at C next to Lee.

Another defensive stat that Lee has excelled in this year is steals. 1.4steals/game. This is much better than the other double/double leaders.

Lee - 1.4steals/game
Boozer 1.2
Howard 1.0
Bosh .5
Bynum .4

Ira wrote:It looks to me like he's working hard in man defense, but he's useless in picking up players going to the hoop. All in all, I like his game and I like the fact that he's improved every season. If we don't have enough cap room for two max contracts, I could see getting one max player and re-signing Lee for $7 or $8 mil/year.

There is going to be a bunch of teams with great cap space who aren't going to get the top tier guys. I have to wonder if one of those teams will look at a David Lee more in the 10mm$ ballpark.
Paul Millsap got 8 I believe and I think that it is proving out Lee is a superior player. Only a few players avg a double double--I mean is David Lee better than Emeka Okafor right now--yes he is and EO makes 11++ I don't know how realistic it is that were going to retain him--that is what may be very flawed with this whole gig--were not valuing--nor have we valued David Lee strong enough for the future-so we may gain a good player and then lose a Harrington and Lee.

Markji wrote:I did cite his weaknesses but I don't dwell on it. I emphasized his strengths which, IMO, are very good and make him a very good player.

i think he's a very good player too, but he could be much better... it's just a matter of effort & a willingness to at least try & play some defense... i don't expect him to turn into Dennis Rodman or Mutombo, but i do expect him to at least attempt to play some D... backing away from contact w/ur jazz hands in the air is not giving an effort on defense.

When he backs away from contact
Lee is as physical as anyone under the boards. He is not soft.

Many times I see him continue to guard and box out his own man when an opposing player drives the lane.

Advantage of this - Lee's man won't be in position to:
1. get a pass from the driving player for an easy dunk because no one is guarding him;
2. get a rebound on a missed shot. Lee will get the rebound.

that right there is the problem... he's so concerned about staying out of foul trouble & boxing out for a possible rebound that he backs away from penetrators in the lane & waits for a possible rebounding opportunity instead of trying to step INTO the lane & either draw a charge or alter the path of the guy who's penetrating... what good does having his man not in a position for a pass do if the guy who's penetrating gets a wide open berth to the hole w/no opposition?

no, it's not his fault that guys get past our perimeter defenders, but it's his job as a frontcourt player to adjust & play some good help defense when guys do... that's why it's a team game... Lee does all the right things on offense & does little of the right things on defense... he's a good player, but he can easily be better... it's up to him to make the effort to improve on his whack D... he's a hard working guy w/a great head on his shoulders, i don't see any reason why he should continue to let himself remain so deficient in that part of his game when we all know he's put in the work to improve on his offensive game... he's no longer a raw rookie kid trying to learn the ropes in the NBA... he's a veteran now & he should know other players' tendencies & habits on the floor... if he doesn't then he should be watching a helluva lot more film then... that's what a good defensive player like Larry Hughes does when he's not on the floor... defense isn't just all about instincts... it's not something that u either have or u don't... players gotta put the effort into developing that side of their game just like they do on offense... some players commit the effort & time into doing it, some don't.

You may not like this style of his game, but that is how he plays. We do need someone to play alongside DLee who can block shots. We were hoping for Darko to fill that role. or Hill. Whatever happened to Darko?? Also, we need better perimeter D. After all, it isn't Lee's fault that so many players drive the lane on us. Tony D should help with that.

when did i say i didn't like his style of game? i've given Lee props on a regular basis cuz of the things he does well on the floor... that don't mean i gotta blind myself to his weaknesses & make excuses for him tho... what does Darko playing or not playing have to do w/Lee's unwillingness to show an effort on the defense? every player out there needs to play D, not just 1 guy... same goes for every other player on this Knicks' team... i say the same stuff about Harrington, Duhon & Nate too... this thread is about Lee tho.

To say he doesn't even try is not correct. He plays as hard as anyone on the court. But stopping someone driving the lane isn't his game.

i disagree... i think i'm right on the money w/my assessment... he doesn't try on D... it's pretty obvious if u watch the games... he gives great effort on the other end... stopping someone driving the lane isn't a skill you're born with... it's just a matter of being willing to step into the lane & take the charge... Fishlips does this well, probably the only thing he does well.

TRU
If he would give 3 of 4 good, hard fouls a game, opposing players would start to respect his presence in the paint.

I do agree with this. Lee has to learn to do this more than he does.

if you can agree that Lee needs to learn to do this more then i dunno what the problem is when i point out his other weaknesses