[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

Stop Reading The Papers, Random Blogs and Gossip Nonsense And Have Some Personal Patience For Donnie In 2010
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum
Page 2 of 3 ‹ Previous 1  2  3 Next ›
« Reply To Topic
Author Thread
martin
Posts: 78516
Alba Posts: 108
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
9/14/2009  5:00 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by martin:
I guess you need to pay more attention to the media's articles, blogs, twitters. There were daily, hourly, weekly updates on Sessions' "status" with NY, LAC over the past few months which proved out to be nothing more than Sessions' agent planting mostly false updates in the media on the situation.

The facts that were reported were true. Walsh was attempting to move a long-term contract before signing Sessions, and if he had he would have pulled the trigger. So what is the “fantasy” that misterearl feels fans are reacting to?

That the deal was imminent? Who cares. The deal was there.

Perhaps you don't care that the newspapers and such were reporting on an imminent deal but that is what the over-reaction has been with Sessions in regards to the fan base. Just because you don't care doesn't mean it did not occur and certainly does not mean the fans got pulled in one directions or another because Chubby Wells decided to leak something to Milwaukee beat reporter.

Chalk up all the other Rubio nonsense and the imminent signing of Nate and Lee all summer too.
Considering that we have now invalidated the one example that was given to support Earl's post, I'm not sure that this is true.

Did you just invalidate the Sessions example because you said "Who cares"? Or because there was a "deal" in place? What was this "deal" and who was on the cusp of being traded that made the Sessions signing "imminent" by the media? I don't remember Curry or JJ being talked about going to another team.
Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
AUTOADVERT
Bippity10
Posts: 13999
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/26/2004
Member: #574
9/14/2009  5:12 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by Bippity10:
It's pretty obvious and no specific examples need to be given to support Earl's post.

Considering that we have now invalidated the one example that was given to support Earl's post, I'm not sure that this is true.

Every off-season is a roller coaster of rumors, speculation, and fan unrest. I think that’s certainly par for the course for most teams, crap ones in particular. I just can’t understand how this is the opening into a “don’t worry, be happy” thread.

Tell me that you think Douglas, Hill, Gallo, whoever, will produce and contribute more than Sessions would have. Or argue that putting a team on the floor that performs largely the way last season’s model did won’t hurt us when courting a FA in 2010. These arguments, to me, would address the relevant issues at hand.

So fans freak out. OK. How are my Knicks doing?

Sessions, lee, Nate this summer
Gallo's back and the conspiracy theories last summer
Trades we did not make during this summer's draft and the many theories and options that Walsh passed on

I could go on and on. But if you were around this summer you would not need more. Fans get jerked around like crazy and they believe whatever fits their own personal agenda. Of course this happens to every fan base. Doesn't mean we should let every fan on this website fall victim to it. Open your eyes guys, the rampant speculation, changed stories, unnamed sources is a farce. None of us have any idea how any of these negotiations went down.

Rembee I have been on that side of the media as a player and coach. I assure you that fans and media have little to no clue as to what goes on behind closed doors. News is manipulated by teams, agents, coaches and the media. Unfortunately in this age of Twitter and Tabloid journalism it's really making people overreact.
I just hope that people will like me
RemBee76
Posts: 20755
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #89
USA
9/14/2009  5:25 PM
Posted by martin:
Perhaps you don't care that the newspapers and such were reporting on an imminent deal but that is what the over-reaction has been with Sessions in regards to the fan base.

No. The reaction from the fan base has been a discussion of whether or not Donnie should have committed a long term contract to Ramon Sessions. Over-reaction is how those who were against his signing are characterizing the protests from those who were for it.

It’s a difference in opinion of Sessions’ ability and how this team should move forward which has nothing to do with media reports reporting that the deal was imminent. Saying that it was belittles those arguing for Sessions as people who need the media to tell them what to think.

Believe it or not, some people can think for themselves, and could see Sessions as a good fit here. It’s fair to argue that a player over 20 PER and fifth in the league in adjusted +/- at point, at only 23 years old and already producing numbers that are Douglas’ ceiling, would be a good fit here. Anyone Walsh manages to sign in 2010 will be judged against what he passed up and had to sacrifice to do it. Positively or negatively.

Counter the argument. Don’t patronize.


Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
martin
Posts: 78516
Alba Posts: 108
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
9/14/2009  5:31 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by martin:
Perhaps you don't care that the newspapers and such were reporting on an imminent deal but that is what the over-reaction has been with Sessions in regards to the fan base.

No. The reaction from the fan base has been a discussion of whether or not Donnie should have committed a long term contract to Ramon Sessions. Over-reaction is how those who were against his signing are characterizing the protests from those who were for it.

It’s a difference in opinion of Sessions’ ability and how this team should move forward which has nothing to do with media reports reporting that the deal was imminent. Saying that it was belittles those arguing for Sessions as people who need the media to tell them what to think.

Believe it or not, some people can think for themselves, and could see Sessions as a good fit here. It’s fair to argue that a player over 20 PER and fifth in the league in adjusted +/- at point, at only 23 years old and already producing numbers that are Douglas’ ceiling, would be a good fit here. Anyone Walsh manages to sign in 2010 will be judged against what he passed up and had to sacrifice to do it. Positively or negatively.

Counter the argument. Don’t patronize.

wait, when did this discussion only focus on the post-Sessions signing? That is only your focus.

we are talking whole summer and much more than just one part of Sessions ordeal and over-reaction from fans. that is how Earl framed it and what I am referring to.
Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
RemBee76
Posts: 20755
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #89
USA
9/14/2009  5:48 PM
Posted by martin:
wait, when did this discussion only focus on the post-Sessions signing? That is only your focus.

Sessions was the example given, and lets be honest, the reason for the first post. If you want to focus on something else, realizing that the Sessions example was a bad one, fine. But this was really my primary point.

There have been a lot of media reports this summer. We pursued Grant Hill, Jason Kidd, Andre Miller. But…all of those reports were true. Turns out we really did have discussions about trading for Rubio (which were quickly shot down). It’s also true we haven’t signed Nate and Lee because we don’t want to add long-term salary. I’m not sure how the speculation on their contracts have shaped fan’s opinion one way or the other, but you seem to?

The way I see it, Hahn, Berman, whoever have been clueless observers along with the rest of us clueless observers. No one should look to those guys to tell them what to think about the Knicks, and I don’t think anyone does. But they are who we have to tell us what’s going on inside the organization. Without them, and without our reacting to what they say, what, exactly, would we be talking about?
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
martin
Posts: 78516
Alba Posts: 108
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
9/14/2009  6:29 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by martin:
wait, when did this discussion only focus on the post-Sessions signing? That is only your focus.

Sessions was the example given, and lets be honest, the reason for the first post. If you want to focus on something else, realizing that the Sessions example was a bad one, fine.

I'll let you put words into what Earl's first post was about and also point out that he mentions "the off season is time to fill the time with endless trade scenarios and free agent wet fantasies". I don't know where you get the idea that Sessions is the only reason for the first post other than the fact he uses a Post headline in reference to Sessions as one example of his fuller premise.

Again, as I had mentioned in my first response to your post, if you want to narrow a discussion on 2 facts about the whole Sessions ordeal, that's fine but doesn't really have anything to do with anything here IMHO - it's entirely different than the broader "gossip nonsense" and "personal patience" The Earl is insisting upon.

Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
misterearl
Posts: 38786
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/16/2004
Member: #799
USA
9/14/2009  7:25 PM
The Answer Man Never Wrote That Critiquing Walsh Was out of bounds.

The operative word is critique. Not speculation. rembee, you know more than anyone how speculation was merited after he consummated deals for Shandon Anderson, Clarence Weatherspoon and the forgettable Felton Spencer. We won't go into the sublte nuance of Lazaro Borrell.

We CAN have a reasonable discussion, in this case, about the merits of building the team, without flogging fans for "taking the bait",.. I advocate the discussion is based around the players who are here, as opposed to those Marc Berman stores on his twitter account.

Forget Ramon. His agent Chubby Wells is a good dude and it would have been fun to sweat him up for Knicks tickets at the health club in Atlanta where he works out, but that is neither here nor there at this point. Where are my basketball experts who can foretell the effect of Danilo Gallinari opening up the court from outside with the bouncy Jordan Hill tracking down anything that moves?

How will Al Harrington change his game alongside a crew of impressionable youngsters, eager to see how the thing works?

et tu Darko?

Then again, if Eddy Curry shows up at an ounce under 289 pounds, all bets are off.

once a knick always a knick
RemBee76
Posts: 20755
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #89
USA
9/14/2009  8:40 PM
Posted by misterearl:

I advocate the discussion is based around the players who are here, as opposed to those Marc Berman stores on his twitter account.

Answerman, our discussions here are always going to be about the deal not made as well as our current Knicks, just as we are always going to talk about the GM's moves as we will the moves of the players on the court. Advocating for anything else is directly contrary to the way this board has been for the last eight years. If its good enough for Layden and Isiah, its good enough for Walsh.

There were a lot of potential transactions talked about this summer. This was the result of Walsh's activity, not empty media speculation. I can only think of one name mentioned that was never really on Walsh's table, and I don't think people here are too lathered up about Boozer anymore, are they?

If our GM didn't swing and miss so often this off-season maybe you wouldn't feel the need to cut off 'critique' of those misses. Walsh may be smarter than Berman, I just don't really get how thats germane.



Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Cosmic
Posts: 26570
Alba Posts: 27
Joined: 3/17/2006
Member: #1115
USA
9/14/2009  9:21 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Earl: Good post, agree 100%

Cosmic-I wouldn't disregard 2009, I think that's too defeatist. I think any grand plans of competing for a title in 2009 should be disregarded, but there are a lot of things to pay attention to this year that mean a lot for our future. Earl named many of them in his first post. Hill, Gallo, Darko, Douglas, Lee, Nate, Chandler, expiring salaries. All these developments are as important as any free-agent money we spend in 2010 and 2011.

Back to Earl: unfortunately the rumors and gossip is what all of our media has become. Too many people have accepted every peice of speculation as fact.

Outside of watching a few young players perform there's nothing else to watch regarding the 2009 season.

My point is there is no playoff push, there will be no mega signing or trade to be seen as this is not a roster you look to do that with, and we're really just sitting here waiting for our flexibility which begins in June 2010.

Outside of that it's about seeing if Hill and Douglas are anything, seeing if Gallo can be healthy, seeing if Chandler can take the extra step.

Seeing if Curry/Jeffries somehow play their way into a trade for us.

Seeing if Darko resurrects his career.

There's nothing else going on here. Honestly there's nothing to get hyped up about in a known throw-away year franchise wise.
http://popcornmachine.net/ A must-use tool for NBA stat junkies!
kam77
Posts: 27664
Alba Posts: 25
Joined: 3/17/2004
Member: #634
9/14/2009  11:10 PM
I agree with those that say there is little reason to watch the team this year. If i weren't a hardcore hoops junky i'd probably cancel my cable TV and save hundreds of dollars.

But the Knicks are a big deal to me. Still. I can't not be a fan. Its in my blood.

So i look for things to follow...

The center position holds some intrigue for me. Will Darko finally blossom? Does Eddy show enough to get traded in time for 2010? Do we see Hill at Center at some point?

The point guard spot looks to be a mess in progress. How much Duhon will we see and how much grooming of Douglass will we do? Will TD be more like Ramon Sessions or Mardy Collins?

Then there is what we get from working a midseason trade of Nate Robinson or David lee. Will trading them net us any young cost controlled players in return or allow us to dump JJ or Eddy?

And of course, the tracking of Wilson and Gallo trajectory of improvement

Aside from these small pleasures, there is precious little to look forward to. No draft choice to play for and no realistic shot at making the playoffs. Why else are the tickets being discounted to $20 and less? The brass knows the product is weak with a demand to match.

Face it, we are subsidizing 2010. Take your medicine and try to like it.

lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
Bippity10
Posts: 13999
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/26/2004
Member: #574
9/15/2009  8:30 AM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by misterearl:

I advocate the discussion is based around the players who are here, as opposed to those Marc Berman stores on his twitter account.

Answerman, our discussions here are always going to be about the deal not made as well as our current Knicks, just as we are always going to talk about the GM's moves as we will the moves of the players on the court. Advocating for anything else is directly contrary to the way this board has been for the last eight years. If its good enough for Layden and Isiah, its good enough for Walsh.

There were a lot of potential transactions talked about this summer. This was the result of Walsh's activity, not empty media speculation. I can only think of one name mentioned that was never really on Walsh's table, and I don't think people here are too lathered up about Boozer anymore, are they?

If our GM didn't swing and miss so often this off-season maybe you wouldn't feel the need to cut off 'critique' of those misses. Walsh may be smarter than Berman, I just don't really get how thats germane.

I agree there were a lot of discussions about players and Walsh did in fact talk to each player. But maybe you weren't here this summer as much as I was. Maybe you didn't notice the constant up and down reactionary responses to every contradictory twitter post. I thought it was pretty evident. We know there were discussions with many players. What those discussions entailed, or how serious or not serious we were about a player we do not know. But many fans have an opinion based on whatever article or twitter page they read.
I just hope that people will like me
RemBee76
Posts: 20755
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #89
USA
9/15/2009  9:52 AM
Bip, I think we understand each other. My opinion is that the headline “Knicks lose Sessions” wasn’t factually inaccurate, only a month late. It doesn’t mean that it was just a fantasy not worth discussing, or that Walsh is off the hook for making his choice.

There may have been some contradictory reports this summer, but give people more credit. No one thinks Berman’s word is gold, and if Hahn is saying something else, then people know you have to wait to see how things shake out. Nothing is fact until Howard Beck reports it in the Times.

More to the point, Kam is correct. We have done little of substance this summer that we might reasonably expect will lead to more wins over a relatively healthy team last year. More to my point, only one development, a full season of Gallo, will make D’Antoni’s job any easier. It’s a positive very likely offset by having seven guys on his team playing for their next contract. This year will be a lost year. And that wasn’t Walsh’s plan.

So it’s cool to be positive, aren’t we so going in to every season? Just don’t play that the well-founded critique is the result of media-induced madness.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
djsunyc
Posts: 44929
Alba Posts: 42
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #536
9/15/2009  10:08 AM
Posted by kam77:

I agree with those that say there is little reason to watch the team this year. If i weren't a hardcore hoops junky i'd probably cancel my cable TV and save hundreds of dollars.

But the Knicks are a big deal to me. Still. I can't not be a fan. Its in my blood.

So i look for things to follow...

The center position holds some intrigue for me. Will Darko finally blossom? Does Eddy show enough to get traded in time for 2010? Do we see Hill at Center at some point?

The point guard spot looks to be a mess in progress. How much Duhon will we see and how much grooming of Douglass will we do? Will TD be more like Ramon Sessions or Mardy Collins?

Then there is what we get from working a midseason trade of Nate Robinson or David lee. Will trading them net us any young cost controlled players in return or allow us to dump JJ or Eddy?

And of course, the tracking of Wilson and Gallo trajectory of improvement

Aside from these small pleasures, there is precious little to look forward to. No draft choice to play for and no realistic shot at making the playoffs. Why else are the tickets being discounted to $20 and less? The brass knows the product is weak with a demand to match.

Face it, we are subsidizing 2010. Take your medicine and try to like it.


cancel cable tv and watch free online game streams.
Bippity10
Posts: 13999
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/26/2004
Member: #574
9/15/2009  11:51 AM
Posted by RemBee76:

Bip, I think we understand each other. My opinion is that the headline “Knicks lose Sessions” wasn’t factually inaccurate, only a month late. It doesn’t mean that it was just a fantasy not worth discussing, or that Walsh is off the hook for making his choice.

There may have been some contradictory reports this summer, but give people more credit. No one thinks Berman’s word is gold, and if Hahn is saying something else, then people know you have to wait to see how things shake out. Nothing is fact until Howard Beck reports it in the Times.

More to the point, Kam is correct. We have done little of substance this summer that we might reasonably expect will lead to more wins over a relatively healthy team last year. More to my point, only one development, a full season of Gallo, will make D’Antoni’s job any easier. It’s a positive very likely offset by having seven guys on his team playing for their next contract. This year will be a lost year. And that wasn’t Walsh’s plan.

So it’s cool to be positive, aren’t we so going in to every season? Just don’t play that the well-founded critique is the result of media-induced madness.

That's cool, I think we just interpreted Earl's post differently. I do give people credit, I do think that people can think for themselves. But I will say that constantly I'm dragged into conversations about subjects we know little about, where there are 8 contradictory articles being written and said fan will believe the one that fits their agenda. I also have had plenty of conversations with people who change their minds every other day depending on the articles posted on the front of this site. Do all people do it? Of course not. But I am not talking about every fan. I'm not even talking about the majority of the fans. I have no idea if it's even a significant number of fans. But what I do know is there clearly are fans on this site that give in to the media circus. Don't take it personally, but there are and that's who I am addressing.

I'm with you on the fact that there are no significant upgrades. I agree that this year in terms of record it looks bleak. I think I just look at things differently than some. When Isiah was fired I knew it would be a process and a few years before we could even discuss winning. I've been through rebuilding with the other teams I root for and understand it's a process. I immediately changed my mindset and instead am focusing less on getting better as a team at this point and realize it's all about the development of Gallo and Hill and Chandler and Douglas. If these guys develop big time we become no different than the other rebuilding teams that everyone is jealous of. If these guys develop we have a core of 1,2,3 guys plus loads of cap space. At that point you have to get excited. But if this group doesn't show progress. If Gallo gets hurt or is not worthy of the pick or Hill is a bumb or Chandler shows no improvement, then of course it looks bleak.

Rebuilding teams lose. That's part of the process. Rebuilding teams tear down before they build, that's part of the process. It is unavoidable. Unfortunately as a fan we have to accept it.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 15-09-2009 11:52 AM]
I just hope that people will like me
RemBee76
Posts: 20755
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #89
USA
9/15/2009  12:43 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Rebuilding teams lose. That's part of the process. Rebuilding teams tear down before they build, that's part of the process. It is unavoidable. Unfortunately as a fan we have to accept it.

All true, if the Knicks were attempting a traditional rebuild. We aren’t. Rebuilding teams don’t typically offer multi-year contracts to guys like Jason Kidd. They trade assets for things like trade exceptions, draft picks, and young players, not guys like Al Harrington and Larry Hughes. Rebuilding teams don’t typically bring in a coach at the level of Mike D’Antoni to oversee the losing. We don’t even have a lottery pick to look forward to.

This isn’t meant as a critique of Walsh’s strategy, it’s a clarification. We aren’t rebuilding via the draft, we had a set goal of clearing salary space to attract a FA. That’s the goal. Walsh said on day 1 that part of that strategy was putting together a good team that a FA would want to be a part of. He knows that for guys like LeBron or Wade, being part of a winning program is the top priority.

So in this scenario we can’t simply be satisfied with the losing, and we certainly can’t be satisfied with another year where D’Antoni’s system fails to get off the ground because we don’t have the kinds of players to execute it. Again, it may be true that this is unavoidable, but it isn’t true that this is part of the process that Walsh embarked upon.

Things could still work out. There is a good chance Gallo will have a break-out year, and none of us know what a market like New York will attract with cap-space because we haven’t seen that in over ten years. But patience isn’t a given when you are in year two of a two year plan. At some point you have to execute.


Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Bippity10
Posts: 13999
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/26/2004
Member: #574
9/15/2009  1:15 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by Bippity10:
Rebuilding teams lose. That's part of the process. Rebuilding teams tear down before they build, that's part of the process. It is unavoidable. Unfortunately as a fan we have to accept it.

All true, if the Knicks were attempting a traditional rebuild. We aren’t. Rebuilding teams don’t typically offer multi-year contracts to guys like Jason Kidd. They trade assets for things like trade exceptions, draft picks, and young players, not guys like Al Harrington and Larry Hughes. Rebuilding teams don’t typically bring in a coach at the level of Mike D’Antoni to oversee the losing. We don’t even have a lottery pick to look forward to.

This isn’t meant as a critique of Walsh’s strategy, it’s a clarification. We aren’t rebuilding via the draft, we had a set goal of clearing salary space to attract a FA. That’s the goal. Walsh said on day 1 that part of that strategy was putting together a good team that a FA would want to be a part of. He knows that for guys like LeBron or Wade, being part of a winning program is the top priority.

So in this scenario we can’t simply be satisfied with the losing, and we certainly can’t be satisfied with another year where D’Antoni’s system fails to get off the ground because we don’t have the kinds of players to execute it. Again, it may be true that this is unavoidable, but it isn’t true that this is part of the process that Walsh embarked upon.

Things could still work out. There is a good chance Gallo will have a break-out year, and none of us know what a market like New York will attract with cap-space because we haven’t seen that in over ten years. But patience isn’t a given when you are in year two of a two year plan. At some point you have to execute.

I don't 100% disagree with you but.........

We did definitely decide to target a free agent next year but how can you say he isn't building through the draft. He isn't exclusively building through the draft but he used two lottery picks and traded for a 2nd round pick, so how can we say he is not "building through draft?". Maybe that's open to your definition of building through the draft. I do think obtaining a top free agent is his main thrust. But if you remember his comments earlier he did say that his plan was to get under the cap for 2010 and he would not stray from that plan unless a top level player became available. No one came available this summer so we are right where I thought we would be. I'm okay with that. Think about it, our young guys will have some time to develop. It's clearly Gallo and Wilson's team. They are the only two guaranteed time and guaranteed to be here. Will they take it?? That will say a ton about our future.

The Kidd offer is puzzling to me. I think that offer was made before the cap fears but I could be wrong. As for trading our guys for young picks and draft picks. I am of the opinion that there is no way you were trading our junk at that time for anything of substance. Nobody was giving you a top quality pick or young guy for Craw and Zach. We did however get some ending contracts which can be turned around into something of quality. I think we forget about that. If we sit on these contracts and nothing of subtance returns but maybe we have an issue with Walsh. but in the short term I was not expecting him to turn our guys into anything. We simply had no bargaining power.
I just hope that people will like me
Bippity10
Posts: 13999
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/26/2004
Member: #574
9/15/2009  1:17 PM
As for hiring D'Antoni to coach a rebuilding team I'm not sure I understand the issue with this. Has he not shown so far that he is on board with the plan? As long as he's on board with the plan don't you want the best coach possible? Is he bad at developing talent? Not sure I understand the issue.
I just hope that people will like me
martin
Posts: 78516
Alba Posts: 108
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
9/15/2009  1:32 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

As for hiring D'Antoni to coach a rebuilding team I'm not sure I understand the issue with this. Has he not shown so far that he is on board with the plan? As long as he's on board with the plan don't you want the best coach possible? Is he bad at developing talent? Not sure I understand the issue.

it's weird to me that some would pine for an unproven coach like Mark Jackson. Mark hasn't even taken the time to prove that he can work as an assistant.

I can't speak much for the leagues and the environment and players in Europe, but MDA won several championships as a player and then as a coach. I don't know if he had the same SSOL strategy with his Italian teams but one would think that he refined the philosophy while winning ball games and titles over there. And then he repeated the same philosophy and tradition of winning with the Suns.
Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
RemBee76
Posts: 20755
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #89
USA
9/15/2009  1:51 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
We did definitely decide to target a free agent next year but how can you say he isn't building through the draft. He isn't exclusively building through the draft but he used two lottery picks and traded for a 2nd round pick, so how can we say he is not "building through draft?".

He isn't following a strategy where losing is part of the plan, which you implied when you said losing was "part of the process." We had a draft pick last year and we still did everything we could to not lose. We had the opportunity to trade Randolph for a trade exception which could have been parlayed into draft picks or youth (certainly would have been incredibly valuable give how teams are trying to cut salary) but we insisted on getting "productive" players in return. I suspect we could have gotten more in the way of young, untapped potential for Crawford, if we weren't trying to replace him with a productive player like Harrington. And I'm not critiquing the choice of D'Antoni for coach (or pining for Mark Jackson) he just isn't the type of coach you get when you are doing a full ground-up rebuild.

Walsh went into this off-season clearly determined to try to make the playoffs. We were talking to a number of vets, offered long-term contracts to Kidd and Grant Hill, so no, I would say we do not fit the profile of a team that is building via the draft. We've actually been remarkably stoic on draft night. Compare Walsh's performance to Pritchard's for two contrasting philosophies on adding talent via the draft.

Look at what Walsh has said and done, and you don’t need to read the NY Post to figure out what we are trying to do. We haven’t done it. The league’s announcement on the salary cap has left Walsh in no-man’s land (needing to add talent but unwilling/unable to do it) and we are all left crossing our fingers and hoping for the best.

This isn’t a rant coming from a desire for “splashy offseason headlines” as Sebstar put it, it’s simply opposing the idea that this is all part of the plan, or inevitable. Our current situation is neither.



Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Bippity10
Posts: 13999
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/26/2004
Member: #574
9/15/2009  2:27 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by Bippity10:
We did definitely decide to target a free agent next year but how can you say he isn't building through the draft. He isn't exclusively building through the draft but he used two lottery picks and traded for a 2nd round pick, so how can we say he is not "building through draft?".

He isn't following a strategy where losing is part of the plan, which you implied when you said losing was "part of the process." We had a draft pick last year and we still did everything we could to not lose. We had the opportunity to trade Randolph for a trade exception which could have been parlayed into draft picks or youth (certainly would have been incredibly valuable give how teams are trying to cut salary) but we insisted on getting "productive" players in return. I suspect we could have gotten more in the way of young, untapped potential for Crawford, if we weren't trying to replace him with a productive player like Harrington. And I'm not critiquing the choice of D'Antoni for coach (or pining for Mark Jackson) he just isn't the type of coach you get when you are doing a full ground-up rebuild.

Walsh went into this off-season clearly determined to try to make the playoffs. We were talking to a number of vets, offered long-term contracts to Kidd and Grant Hill, so no, I would say we do not fit the profile of a team that is building via the draft. We've actually been remarkably stoic on draft night. Compare Walsh's performance to Pritchard's for two contrasting philosophies on adding talent via the draft.

Look at what Walsh has said and done, and you don’t need to read the NY Post to figure out what we are trying to do. We haven’t done it. The league’s announcement on the salary cap has left Walsh in no-man’s land (needing to add talent but unwilling/unable to do it) and we are all left crossing our fingers and hoping for the best.

This isn’t a rant coming from a desire for “splashy offseason headlines” as Sebstar put it, it’s simply opposing the idea that this is all part of the plan, or inevitable. Our current situation is neither.

Again this depends on your definition of "building through the draft".

1.) If you think back to the pre-draft talk everyone, including Walsh, said that this was a weak draft and there was not much difference between pick 6-20. So I think that is why he did not feel a need to "tank" in order to move up in the draft. Whether he was right or wrong remains to be seen. We had a team led by young players Lee, Nate, Chandler(also the hope was Gallo as well), young teams like that, that are competing for playoff spots in my opinion should not fall victim to the "tank". Old teams yes, young teams no.

2.) We can agree to disagree, but I do not think you were getting anything for the following players: Crawford, Curry, Randolph and Marbury. You may disagree on some of those listed. That's fine, we can agree to disagree. I personally feel we got some good stuff for them(see next point)

3.) Yes we got players that would allow us to compete for a playoff spot. The difference between his actions and other GM's we've had in the past is that in the past we got players who allowed us to "compete" but they had long-term contracts that put us in a hole. Walsh went after the playoffs but he brought on "vets" with low salaries and soon to be expiring or currently expiring contracts. If Walsh plays his cards right that will come in handy for us as we trade them for talent or let them come off the books as we pursue free agents. If he plays his cards wrong he lets us all down. Either way, time hasn't run out of that part of the plan. No matter what you say about his moves we still are lead by 2 lottery picks, 2-4 recent first rounders and loads of upcoming cap space. So regardless of the talk over the summer with the papers etc we still look exactly the way a rebuilding team should look

4.) I did not say that you were pining after Mark, so not sure why you added that in. Taht's a conversation martin and you are having. I do however have to ask, what do you mean D'Antoni isn't the coach you hire when you are rebuilding? Who do you hire?

5.) I think Walsh's mindset was to compete for the playoffs this year because we don't have a draft pick this year, and the playoffs might have been a way to entice free agents. But when that plan fell through what happened? Are we hamstrung? Stuck? doomed? No we are in the exact same position we were in. Young players with cap space. If chandler and Gallo were proven stars we would be singing to the moon about that. I personally do not buy into the "Lebron or bust" mentality. Without him or any other big name free agent we are still left in a position to improve. Just not on the time frame that New Yorkers demand


[Edited by - bippity10 on 15-09-2009 2:32 PM]
I just hope that people will like me
Page 2 of 3 ‹ Previous 1  2  3 Next ›
« Reply To Topic
Stop Reading The Papers, Random Blogs and Gossip Nonsense And Have Some Personal Patience For Donnie In 2010
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy