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What can Keith Van Horn do to get some respect?
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Silverfuel
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12/8/2003  11:25 PM
Posted by martin:
A few things:

- we will have to make the distinction between taking a pay cut and signing for a lower salary.

- we will have to take into consideration the difference between contracts and salaries.

- we will also have to take into consideration between signing a contract with your current team and signing with a different team.

I think I missed your point there. Agree with all of those points.

My point was just that none of the athletes put winning before money. They shouldn't have to, they are free to pick their priorities because their morality is not being judged. They should just not act like money is not important and its all the wins and the team.

The Giants players pretty much prove that dont even care about the fans much less the team they play for!
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martin
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12/8/2003  11:29 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:

Salaries can be restructured if both sides agree in the middle of a contract.

you sure about that? Don't think so. Can't think of any examples.
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Silverfuel
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12/8/2003  11:43 PM
Posted by martin:

you sure about that? Don't think so. Can't think of any examples.

Jason Sehorn, Giants restructured his contract.

The NBA does not allow restructuring salaries to clear up more than a certain amount hence the $5 million exception every year.(veterans exception) But if the owners cannot pay $5M and canot sign anyone even though they are allowed to and one the athletes volunteers to take a pay cut for 2 years, the team can use the $10 million over 2 years. I dont think you can structure all te contracts and free up $10 million in one year to sign a Free Agent though.

Not that it will ever happen. Most athletes will never take a pay cut to help the team.
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martin
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12/8/2003  11:51 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by martin:

you sure about that? Don't think so. Can't think of any examples.

Jason Sehorn, Giants restructured his contract.

ah-ha, thought we were talking about NBA.
Not that it will ever happen. Most athletes will never take a pay cut to help the team.

Right, we are back to my initial line: "you've been good lately, how about a 100% raise?" would you respond with "only 50% for me, I don't want to hold back the company"? It still holds. It's human nature.
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TRU
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12/8/2003  11:57 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by Silverfuel:

Salaries can be restructured if both sides agree in the middle of a contract.

you sure about that? Don't think so. Can't think of any examples.

As was said in the post above, the NBA may preclude certain reorginizations of terms, but according to basic contract law, terms of a contract can be ammended as long as there is mutual assent of the parties plus some consideration for the ammendment (it's a little more complicated than that to prove it in court, but that's the basics.)

My problem with the argument you guys are having is the "all or nothing" attitude. People aren't so simple that you can categorize there states of minds into neat piles of "selfish" and "team-oriented." Most athletes mean it when they say that they want to win a championship. At the same time, most athletes are driven to sign the biggest and largest contracts they can. It's not human necessarily human nature, but it is the American Way.

If it meant bringin in a sure-fire stud (or two or three), I think that most athletes, within reason, would make concessions. But honestly, there aren't that many players (outside Shaq and Duncan) that would inspire, say, an Allan Houston (NBA by-laws permitting) to take a pay cut for the good of the team. Would you give up 10 mill just to play allongside Mo Peterson? No. How about Antoine Walker? Nah-ah. Iverson? Probably not.
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Silverfuel
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12/9/2003  12:00 AM
Posted by martin:
Right, we are back to my initial line: "you've been good lately, how about a 100% raise?" would you respond with "only 50% for me, I don't want to hold back the company"? It still holds. It's human nature.

If I say that my goal is for my company to be the best in world then yes, I take 50% and bring in another big time guy for 50%. If I say I only care about myself, I take the 100% raise. Athletes today say, I only care about the wins and then go an sign with the highest bidder.

I'm not arguing its human nature to take more money but why act so righteous about it when you don't have to? They just look foolish and get mocked! I dont think I can change your mind and i'm not changing mine so lets just go back to saying Layden and Dolan have killed the Knicks and brought in arseholes like Shandon Anderson.
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NYK8
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12/9/2003  1:56 AM
Posted by NYK8:

tryin to force a 2min.penalty.
ok like hockey when you want to have the odds in your favor n shift the momentum towards your own team.you try to get a player from the opposite team to do something to break the rules to put them a penalty.or like in football after making a tackle in a pile you sneak a punch or an elbow to have the player retaliate.ex.KVH stepin in Cliffs face,then Cliff pushing KVH to back off.Cliff got caught at the mind game.KVH just tryin anything to stop the bleeding but it didnt work.

Caseloads im not sayin he's tough but that he will throw a punch or defend himself when a real situation occurs.Cliff was just pushing him off of him.the way i would expect KVH n any other player to react in that situation.KVH initiated the incident so it didn't make sence to hit Cliff after the push.unless he really hate his guts.it was just a mind game.so in reality KVH was tryin to PUNK Cliff.lol,but Cliff wasn't havin it.ight,now nobody is a coward,get it str8 my people.

[Edited by - nyk8 on 12/09/2003 01:58:45]

[Edited by - nyk8 on 12/09/2003 02:01:58]
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HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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12/9/2003  2:04 AM
First off, KVH isn't punking anyone, and secondly Cliff Robinson punked him. That's the straight story. All his teammates stood around and watched the whole thing go down.

A docile team is what Dolan and LayDown wanted.

Anyone that was for that trade that brought KVH here needs to go sit down somewhere. Those are the ones who should have no comment when madness like this occurs.

Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
NYK8
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12/9/2003  2:15 AM
lol,guess what.i am sit'n down n im commenting.i been watching to many sports to not realize when someone was being tricked into a situation.
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DefAndReb
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12/9/2003  8:48 AM
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

Anyone that was for that trade that brought KVH here needs to go sit down somewhere. Those are the ones who should have no comment when madness like this occurs.



As you well know, HCKF, that trade wasn't about getting KVH, it was about getting rid of Spree. Dolan said to Layden "Get rid of him" like he did to Checketts about Grunfeld, so Layden spent the better part of two seasons trying to trade Spree. I'm sure they tell themselves they could've done worse, and really, they could have done much worse. Still, Keith is now exhibiting the maddening soft play that got him shipped out of NJ and Philly. I know the guy will have a few really good games this season, and then we'll all hope he keeps it up, but history has shown that he turns soft when you most need him.

Just like Shandon having a couple good nights, just like Frank, Keith cannot keep it going. It's a mental thing with this guy; he just doesn't get it. This guy has the ability to force double-teams, but he just won't use it regularly. He gets a pass up high and passes it back off; sometimes he drives to the hoop. He just doesn't get in the flow very well.

At the quarter mark, the Knicks are well under .500. In a season where the Knicks missing the playoffs may get Layden fired (I hope, though I wouldn't count on it), the problem is that no matter how much the Knicks lose, the rest of the Atlantic Division lose too, and the Knicks are only 4 games out of 1st. If they can't turn it around (I'm not saying they won't - it's just that they're not consistent and they're sloppy with the ball), the earliest I see them capitulate is late March. Then, it's Lampe time!

Nedyal1
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12/9/2003  9:03 AM
KVH should have never allowed to be bitched slapped! Spree would have chocked that cat then stuck one of his daughter ear eating dogs on uncle cliffies ass, then busted a cap in it for good measure. Then take him on the high seas of lake michigan and dumped his butt like a good Soprano would.

Even Dice now calling Knicks soft! Taken from a man whom made the playoffs once! All soft spoken sweet talking Dice musta ripped them a new one. H20 also must have gone nuts, getting in teams face about passion!

Charlie then reached for the lord to guide him and remove the softness from his sole and his comrades in arms!

FatSpoon was thinking about mixing some cranberry orange julious and wondering if it might taste good together.

The failure of passion I believe should be blamed on Eisley. He is the quarterback, and should dictate the pulse of the team. Ward is too filled with "purpose" to instigate a sense of urgancy both on the floor and in the locker room. Fwill does not yet have any clout.

I like the team with character and moral goodness, but we have too many of them. We need a foul mouthed coach and a point whom is his diciple from hell. He can hath spell the fury of rightousness thru the detour of hell as the path to victory! Shoot, I don't know, but the character of a team rides in its big daddy, like a Patrick or Shaq, but the man with the ball decides whom shoots, whom runs and when to take matters in his own hands. Gary Payton is the best at that. Kidd, Stockton, Zeke, Derek Harper, those guys ran there teams, but took matters in there own hands when needed!

Crawford, Terry, these are not the guys. MIlos? Looks like he has the package: can slash, shoot and dish. Hope he can speak the english!

Jury should still be out on KVH, the dude can run, can rebound, not soft signs. Perhaps he was the instigater?

Knicks run in Utah this week, a breakout game im sure for KVH!
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martin
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12/9/2003  9:39 AM
Posted by DefAndReb:

Then, it's Lampe time!

just doesn't roll off the tongue like our favourite beer, now does it?

I'd like to see Lampe get any minutes that are now going to Spoon or Harrington.
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martin
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12/9/2003  9:43 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by DefAndReb:

Then, it's Lampe time!

just doesn't roll off the tongue like our favourite beer, now does it?

I'd like to see Lampe get any minutes that are now going to Spoon or Harrington.

Or the kind of minutes Darko is getting in Detroit.
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HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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12/9/2003  10:45 AM
What can Keith Van Horn do to get some respect?

Get traded. Again.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
jazz74
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12/9/2003  11:20 AM
Posted by Nedyal1:

KVH should have never allowed to be bitched slapped! Spree would have chocked that cat then stuck one of his daughter ear eating dogs on uncle cliffies ass, then busted a cap in it for good measure. Then take him on the high seas of lake michigan and dumped his butt like a good Soprano would.

Even Dice now calling Knicks soft! Taken from a man whom made the playoffs once! All soft spoken sweet talking Dice musta ripped them a new one. H20 also must have gone nuts, getting in teams face about passion!

Charlie then reached for the lord to guide him and remove the softness from his sole and his comrades in arms!

FatSpoon was thinking about mixing some cranberry orange julious and wondering if it might taste good together.

The failure of passion I believe should be blamed on Eisley. He is the quarterback, and should dictate the pulse of the team. Ward is too filled with "purpose" to instigate a sense of urgancy both on the floor and in the locker room. Fwill does not yet have any clout.

I like the team with character and moral goodness, but we have too many of them. We need a foul mouthed coach and a point whom is his diciple from hell. He can hath spell the fury of rightousness thru the detour of hell as the path to victory! Shoot, I don't know, but the character of a team rides in its big daddy, like a Patrick or Shaq, but the man with the ball decides whom shoots, whom runs and when to take matters in his own hands. Gary Payton is the best at that. Kidd, Stockton, Zeke, Derek Harper, those guys ran there teams, but took matters in there own hands when needed!

Crawford, Terry, these are not the guys. MIlos? Looks like he has the package: can slash, shoot and dish. Hope he can speak the english!

Jury should still be out on KVH, the dude can run, can rebound, not soft signs. Perhaps he was the instigater?

Knicks run in Utah this week, a breakout game im sure for KVH!

this is what is frustrating. dolan and layzie are talking about, "character, character,character" all the time. then you have some people that say you can not win with character players. that is bull****!

case in point: san antonio. that is a team oozing with character. the difference is that they have talent and well-coached. we need talent and better coaching period. our scouting stinks and layzie is pretty much scouting for other teams ( nene, harvey, etc.). also even though duncan can be " docile" no one messes with him because a.) he earns respect with his play and b.) his "character driven" team WILL have his back if need be like malik rose and bruce bowen. so you do not have to be oakley like tough. but you have to grab that respect. van horn needs to do that with his play. like i said before that used to happen to houston ( i remember steve smith tried when he was in atlanta)then he started dropping mad points against that team. he earned that respect. van horn needs to take the tampon out and let his play do the talking for him instead and cowering against cliff robinson who had a history of being soft from his portland days.
martin
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12/9/2003  11:36 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by martin:
Posted by DefAndReb:

Then, it's Lampe time!

just doesn't roll off the tongue like our favourite beer, now does it?

I'd like to see Lampe get any minutes that are now going to Spoon or Harrington.

Or the kind of minutes Darko is getting in Detroit.

Timely article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/09/sports/basketball/09DARK.html
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HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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12/9/2003  12:21 PM
Posted by jazz74:

van horn needs to take the tampon out and let his play do the talking for him instead and cowering against cliff robinson who had a history of being soft from his portland days.

Preach on, Jazz!!! I guess Cliff picked someone softer than him to make himself look hard. He picked the right one, alright...

I am glad Dyess said what he did. We haven't had someone on this team that will tell it like it is since Spree got traded. I guess Dolan and LayDown are reading the paper saying "well it's the last year of his contract...".
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
Caseloads
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12/9/2003  12:54 PM
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

I am glad Dyess said what he did. We haven't had someone on this team that will tell it like it is since Spree got traded. I guess Dolan and LayDown are reading the paper saying "well it's the last year of his contract...".

TRUE.

I doubt Dyess will be back next year.
martin
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12/9/2003  1:25 PM
Posted by Caseloads:
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

I am glad Dyess said what he did. We haven't had someone on this team that will tell it like it is since Spree got traded. I guess Dolan and LayDown are reading the paper saying "well it's the last year of his contract...".
TRUE.

I doubt Dyess will be back next year.

man, the pessimism. Dice's comments were a passion plea, nothing more.

the only way I see Dice not on the team next year is if he is on the IR at the end of the season.
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HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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12/9/2003  1:33 PM
From the way he's complaining (rightfully) right now, does he sound like he'd want to come back to a situation like this?? It sounded like a little more than a passion plea. I will also go on the record and say that we are gonna hear alot more comments like that as the season wears on.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
What can Keith Van Horn do to get some respect?

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