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More leverage for Donnie (Olympiacos withdraws offer to Nate)
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TheGame
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7/22/2009  1:33 PM
It actually would have been good for the Knicks if Nate played for Greece. We still would have had his rights and then could have resigned him longterm after we signed other max players.
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Paladin55
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7/22/2009  1:42 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Paladin55:
Posted by TMS:

if i were Nate or D Lee at this point i'd just sign a Q.O. & play out the season & go for a bigger contract next year in free agency when there are a lot more teams w/dollars to spend & hope the economic conditions improve rather than signing a well below market longterm deal now.

Seems logical, but, and this is especially true for Nate, what if the numbers they put up are inferior this upcoming year. Lee will have more sharing to do with Darko, Hill, and a sound Gallinari needing minutes, and Nate will lose minutes to Hughes, Sessions (if acquired), and Douglas, if he shows us anything this year. Add to that the possibility that Chandler could be playing more at SG this year, and MDA's lack of patience with Nate's decisions and behavior, and you have diminished minutes for Nate. Their market values will be greatly diminished if Lee is now talking about selling his 14/10 (and still no D) line, and Nate is trying to peddle his 10-12 PPG, 3 APG (and still out of control) line.

Both Nate and Lee are coming off career years, and teams must realize by now that Walsh is not going to overpay for them, yet they still attracted little (NO??) attention. Next year, with a lowered cap (right?) and some big names available, they may not be offered as much as they want, even though the offers made to them can't be matched by the Knicks.

The benefits Lee and Nate may find from improved economic conditions next year may be mitigated by other factors, so who knows what their value will be on the market next year.

all good & fair points but again, what motivates them to sign far below market deals w/us? why not at least explore the free agency market next year, they won't likely get any worse offers than the ones they can't even get now... in the case of D Lee i may tend to agree w/Marv, i would come begging Donnie to see if that 4 year $8 mil per offer was still on the table & sign it, but what if it's not? now that Donnie sees there's no market for D Lee don't u think he's gonna try & lowball him some more? isn't that how GM's normally operate unless we're talking about top FA's that are in demand? (Allan Houston notwithstanding)

i just have a bad feeling that these guys are gonna take the Q.O., play out their contracts & look to get "theirs" & put up as many stats as possible & try for a bigger payday in 2010 at this point... i really hope i'm wrong cuz that was the worst possible scenario that i considered when all the talk about trading these guys was going down last season.

To be honest, I am assuming that we won't have Nate on the team after next year (at the latest)- I am more interested in seeing what the Knicks do with Lee. How much we pay him depends on what his role will be on the team. I can't see offering Lee $8M/yr if he is going to be playing 25-30 MPG, and getting even fewer minutes if the Hill, Gallo, Darko trio plays well. By some time next year, I would think that Hill, assuming that his body and BB IQ evolve, is going to demand many more minutes on the court.

I also see too many variables to just give Lee a 4yr/$32M contract at this point. Can Chandler play at SG? If not, and both he and Gallo emerge as solid pros, what do we do? What if Darko has a rebirth as a player and loves the NYC Serbian community (We got one- right?), and tells Walsh he wants to remain here for a reasonable contract? Lee may then end up playing 20-30MPG coming off the bench, then. You don't give a guy $32M over 4 years to come off the bench, IMO.

By the way, putting up stats for a future contract while playing on a QO contract is not going to work with this team, I think, especially with Nate, who is more of a selfish stat guy than Lee, and will sit on the bench if he strays from the system(thereby lowering his future value even more). And if Lee seems too concerned with the double/doubles and continues to play weak D, MDA should sit his butt down. Other than his D, I had no problems with Lee last year. I still consider him to be a team player, and the kind of guy a winning program can use.

Best thing to do is offer Lee a $7M/3yr contract with team option on a 4th year. If we see that other players are emerging- especially Hill, we use Lee in a trade. I don't think that this is a terrible low-ball offer for Lee. To me, the market for Lee has pretty much been set, and it has dropped below the $8M/yr level. Time for his agent to look at the terrible hand he has been dealt and fold.
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TMS
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7/22/2009  1:46 PM
if we can get Lee at a 3 yr. $21 mil contract that's a steal & i would be very happy w/an outcome like that cuz it means he will remain a very tradeable asset for us going into this year's deadline if Donnie chooses to go that route... what i wanna avoid is locking him up to big longterm dollars where our options to trade him will be severely limited & it will kill our cap for 2010 & also definitely don't wanna see him leaving via free agency this year or in 2010 & not getting anything back in return.

[Edited by - TMS on 07-22-2009 1:47 PM]
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Cosmic
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7/22/2009  1:54 PM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by TMS:

obviously he wasn't gonna sustain that level of play but i think it's naive to think there weren't teams interested in trading us some useful assets for him last year, at the very least a 1st round pick.

then why won't they offer him a penny now?

There are better players still available and until those players have a home Nate will be twisting in the wind. I think that's what is going on.

...TMS: Yes, I agree we could use Nate and Lee - or what we get back for them - as trade assets. As to dumping bad contracts nobody is taking Eddy Curry even if we give them both Lee and Nate because once that team gets those players they have to sign them to extension so it evolves into a major 20M+ deal for them. I don't know many teams that can afford that. Jeffries on the other hand is probably an easy pill to force another team to swallow in order to acquire Lee or Nate. I think that's an absolute possibility.
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Cosmic
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7/22/2009  1:58 PM
Posted by TMS:

if we can get Lee at a 3 yr. $21 mil contract that's a steal & i would be very happy w/an outcome like that cuz it means he will remain a very tradeable asset for us going into this year's deadline if Donnie chooses to go that route... what i wanna avoid is locking him up to big longterm dollars where our options to trade him will be severely limited & it will kill our cap for 2010 & also definitely don't wanna see him leaving via free agency this year or in 2010 & not getting anything back in return.

[Edited by - TMS on 07-22-2009 1:47 PM]

Lee wants the big cash because just like fans like myself see...Lee also sees...that he's already slowing down physically. You can just see it happening. He needs to get locked up long term or he faces problems after a hypothetical 3 year extension where he's no better than he is today and much slower at it.

Teams are also very aware of his flaws and how big they are. They are not minor they are glaring. They will get worse not better. Lee really is at that point where he needs to get locked up long term or knows he will be an underpaid journeyman.

He also knows, as does Nate, that taking the QO and risking 2010 means they are stacked against even worse than this offseason by far greater talent. They already see how they're not on anyone's list yet THIS year. Imagine next summer. They'll be scratching for MLEs at best. So they need to get it done THIS offseason. Nobody is paying Lee 10M this year....and who is left on the table ahead of him? Boozer trade? Odom FA? What about next year? Amare, Dirk, Bosh? LMFAO...Lee won't get a damn thing next summer.

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TMS
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7/22/2009  2:06 PM
i know what Lee wants... i'm saying we shouldn't give it to him... but if we can't make him accept a contract on our terms we risk losing him for nothing, which at this point is a very real possibility... we're in a catch 22 situation almost & it didn't need to get to this point.

[Edited by - TMS on 07-22-2009 2:06 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Cosmic
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7/22/2009  2:12 PM
Posted by TMS:

i know what Lee wants... i'm saying we shouldn't give it to him... but if we can't make him accept a contract on our terms we risk losing him for nothing, which at this point is a very real possibility... we're in a catch 22 situation almost & it didn't need to get to this point.

[Edited by - TMS on 07-22-2009 2:06 PM]

No, we shouldn't, and I am convinced we will not pull an Allan Houston on this one.

As to losing him...if it happens, it happens, but as of yet we are still in command and control of this situation, as evidenced by a lack of an offer sheet extended to him.

Once Odom and Boozer are settled then I think you see a team reach out to Lee.

Much like once Sessions, AMiller, Iverson are settled then you see a team reach out to Nate.

Since none of that is happening anytime soon? Donnie is just sitting back and watching things unfold.

Which...puts us in the driver seat for now.

I also doubt Donnie loses either player for nothing - unless some team did something outrageous like offer Nate 10M or Lee 14M on an offer sheet. Then, yeah, they're gone, and there's nothing that can be done about it. I don't see that happening. So it's a wait and see.

Knick fans are held hostage by Lee and Nate - because Lee and Nate are held hostage by Odom, Boozer, Miller, Iverson, Sessions, etc...

We just got to wait.
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kam77
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7/22/2009  2:24 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

I just hope we pay him a little more than the QO. I mean. The guy has busted his butt here for a long time and put people in the seats.

If we only pay him the QO I would be worried what kind of mentality he would be bringing to the team.

What if Walsh offers each one year deals... 4 mil for Nate, 9 mil for Lee...

We keep their Bird rights. They get paid more than the QO. We build good will with them so they don't try to gouge us next year. Or we trade them mid-season.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
djsunyc
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7/22/2009  2:28 PM
Posted by kam77:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

I just hope we pay him a little more than the QO. I mean. The guy has busted his butt here for a long time and put people in the seats.

If we only pay him the QO I would be worried what kind of mentality he would be bringing to the team.

What if Walsh offers each one year deals... 4 mil for Nate, 9 mil for Lee...

We keep their Bird rights. They get paid more than the QO. We build good will with them so they don't try to gouge us next year. Or we trade them mid-season.

no bird's rights on 1 year deals...
Allanfan20
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7/22/2009  2:28 PM
Posted by kam77:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

I just hope we pay him a little more than the QO. I mean. The guy has busted his butt here for a long time and put people in the seats.

If we only pay him the QO I would be worried what kind of mentality he would be bringing to the team.

What if Walsh offers each one year deals... 4 mil for Nate, 9 mil for Lee...

We keep their Bird rights. They get paid more than the QO. We build good will with them so they don't try to gouge us next year. Or we trade them mid-season.

Why would Nate and Lee accept that though? Sign a one year deal so I can considered to still be trade bait? I wouldn't sign that if I were them. Would you?
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GodSaveTheKnicks
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7/22/2009  2:43 PM
If I were Nate and Lee I'd look for the most money possible. Right now it's just not there. We'll see what unfolds once Odom, Boozer, Sessions and Miller figure out what they're doing.
Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
kam77
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7/22/2009  4:30 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by kam77:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

I just hope we pay him a little more than the QO. I mean. The guy has busted his butt here for a long time and put people in the seats.

If we only pay him the QO I would be worried what kind of mentality he would be bringing to the team.

What if Walsh offers each one year deals... 4 mil for Nate, 9 mil for Lee...

We keep their Bird rights. They get paid more than the QO. We build good will with them so they don't try to gouge us next year. Or we trade them mid-season.

Why would Nate and Lee accept that though? Sign a one year deal so I can considered to still be trade bait? I wouldn't sign that if I were them. Would you?

Because for Nate its a million $ more than playing for the QO.
And a $6 mil raise for Lee.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
TMS
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7/22/2009  5:16 PM
Posted by kam77:
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by kam77:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

I just hope we pay him a little more than the QO. I mean. The guy has busted his butt here for a long time and put people in the seats.

If we only pay him the QO I would be worried what kind of mentality he would be bringing to the team.

What if Walsh offers each one year deals... 4 mil for Nate, 9 mil for Lee...

We keep their Bird rights. They get paid more than the QO. We build good will with them so they don't try to gouge us next year. Or we trade them mid-season.

Why would Nate and Lee accept that though? Sign a one year deal so I can considered to still be trade bait? I wouldn't sign that if I were them. Would you?

Because for Nate its a million $ more than playing for the QO.
And a $6 mil raise for Lee.

but if u sign a 1 year QO u earn veto rights over any trade, thus ensuring u have some say in where u will be playing, at least for that season.
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kam77
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7/22/2009  5:18 PM
I'd give up trade veto rights (so you spend a half a year in Memphis) for 6 million more dollars i don't know about you.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
TMS
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7/22/2009  5:25 PM
ur missing the point... u can't sign guys for anything more than the MLE unless u have Bird Rights... if u sign a player on a 1 year deal u lose his Bird Rights... this is in place to prevent teams from doing exactly what you're proposing we do here... so in actuality, Lee would stand to only make about $2 mil more on a 1 year max MLE deal & stand the risk of being traded to some team where he'll have to back up a premier PF like a Tim Duncan or whoever else & suffer a huge loss in production, thereby jeopardizing his longterm earning potential on his next contract... by taking the QO he at least controls where he plays this year & can weigh his options in free agency later... he already knows he can put up big #'s in MDA's system & it's not likely he'll exceed those #'s anywhere else.
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Ira
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7/23/2009  8:45 AM
http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=342071

This is from another (Giants) board, but since he didn't post a link, I linked the thread instead. Here's the relevant info -
"We don't have a deal yet but we're negotiating to get a deal done with the Knicks," Aaron Goodwin said. "Nate wants to stay in New York."
Goodwin refused to discuss terms of a possible deal, but according to a Knicks source, Robinson is expected to sign a one-year contract worth between $4 million and $5 million, or at least $1 million more than his qualifying offer

[Edited by - ira on 07-23-2009 08:45 AM]
DrAlphaeus
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7/23/2009  9:06 AM
Posted by Paladin55:

Their market values will be greatly diminished if Lee is now talking about selling his 14/10 (and still no D) line, and Nate is trying to peddle his 10-12 PPG, 3 APG (and still out of control) line.

Let's say those guys have those averages next year, but the Knicks get into the first round with some late season heroics, and bounced in a 5 or 6 game first round with some nice ESPN highlights from those gentlemen. Are they worth more in that next year than this year?
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Ira
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7/23/2009  10:34 AM
It's hard to say. Sometimes a good playoff series will influence a team interested in signing a free agent. But the competition from other free agents next season will make it difficult.
K22
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7/23/2009  10:50 AM
Posted by Ira:

Sometimes a good playoff series will influence a team interested in signing a free agent.

Ugh. Bad memories. Please don't bring that up.

-- the preceding post was brought to you by the letter K and the number 22.
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7/23/2009  1:02 PM
Lee was averaging 6.6 rebounds per game before Zach was traded. Maybe he wasn't 100% but it's clear that if Lee isn't the only good rebounder (e.g. - Enter Jordan Hill) on the floor that his numbers are going to go down and his lack of defense will be even more glaring.

Lee is in a bind and him and his agent know it. He better take the 8 million a year or he might end up with only 7, or even less depending on where this economy goes.

Yes, Donnie does have leverage. Might be hard for us fans waiting for something to happen but I think with Lee he has played his cards right.
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