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RealGM: Nate close to accepting the QO
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eViL
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7/13/2009  4:07 PM
Man, I wonder what Nate would play like if he took the QO? Would he go nut mode, chuck everything in sight, and go for the numbers? Or would he try to have a super professional season hoping he's recognized and he gets paid for it?
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WOODMANnYk
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7/13/2009  4:28 PM
I say no to Nate and try packaging him in a trade that would benefit us..
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Marv
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7/13/2009  4:29 PM
Posted by franco12:

I wonder if Walsh has offered Nate anything besides the QO- like 3 years, $12MM.

Honestly, the lack of anything but the QO speaks volume about what the Knicks think about Nate.

and apparently the entire nba.
EwingsGlass
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7/13/2009  4:29 PM
Posted by franco12:

I wonder if Walsh has offered Nate anything besides the QO- like 3 years, $12MM.

Honestly, the lack of anything but the QO speaks volume about what the Knicks think about Nate.

Nah, I think it is good business. Let the market set the price. No need to negotiate against yourself. Same goes for Lee. Its not like they really earned big dollars with the 23/33/23/32 wins per season over their respective contracts.
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kam77
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7/13/2009  4:38 PM
For a couple months there, people were talking about Nate as a mini-Wade.

In fact, if not for his mid-season swoon, he would've had a monster year.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
VDesai
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7/13/2009  4:42 PM
Posted by kam77:

For a couple months there, people were talking about Nate as a mini-Wade.

In fact, if not for his mid-season swoon, he would've had a monster year.

Nate is really gifted. My only issue with him is can he be a complementary guy? And if not, how do you build an offense around a 5'8" guy? I have no doubt he can score 20+ on a day to day basis, but he's such a unique player that its really hard to figure out how to use him in an efficient manner. Add immaturity issues into the equation and it makes it even harder to justify big money...
franco12
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7/13/2009  4:45 PM
Posted by EwingsGlass:
Posted by franco12:

I wonder if Walsh has offered Nate anything besides the QO- like 3 years, $12MM.

Honestly, the lack of anything but the QO speaks volume about what the Knicks think about Nate.

Nah, I think it is good business. Let the market set the price. No need to negotiate against yourself. Same goes for Lee. Its not like they really earned big dollars with the 23/33/23/32 wins per season over their respective contracts.

But signing the QO doesn't enable us to really to trade him, and we can lose him next year for nothing. Just because no one has offered him 3 years $12MM doesn't mean a team wouldn't trade a first rounder and filler at the deadline for Nate with that deal.
kam77
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7/13/2009  4:56 PM
Posted by VDesai:
Posted by kam77:

For a couple months there, people were talking about Nate as a mini-Wade.

In fact, if not for his mid-season swoon, he would've had a monster year.

Nate is really gifted. My only issue with him is can he be a complementary guy? And if not, how do you build an offense around a 5'8" guy? I have no doubt he can score 20+ on a day to day basis, but he's such a unique player that its really hard to figure out how to use him in an efficient manner. Add immaturity issues into the equation and it makes it even harder to justify big money...

For a team who needs a #1 player, no its not Nate. But for a team that needs a Bench guy who can score in bunches... Nate is one of the best. Chicago and Cleveland i thought would have been real nice fits for him as 6th or 7th man, instant offense.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
EwingsGlass
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7/13/2009  4:57 PM
Yeah, we might risk losing him for nothing. Or we could have his rights for use in an Sign and Trade. Or we could sign and trade him right now. In any event, so far, until another team decides they want him (whether this year or next year), we do not have to negotiate with ourselves. If signs an offer sheet at $4m per year, I would likely match that. If he signs one at 5 years $35M, I would thank Nate for his contributions. But until there is another offer, there is no need to delve deeply into negotiations. We have his rights, he doesn't have our rights.

You know I gonna spin wit it
McK1
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7/13/2009  4:58 PM
cleveland used their mid on Parker
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Martice
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7/13/2009  5:26 PM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by EwingsGlass:
Posted by franco12:

I wonder if Walsh has offered Nate anything besides the QO- like 3 years, $12MM.

Honestly, the lack of anything but the QO speaks volume about what the Knicks think about Nate.

Nah, I think it is good business. Let the market set the price. No need to negotiate against yourself. Same goes for Lee. Its not like they really earned big dollars with the 23/33/23/32 wins per season over their respective contracts.

But signing the QO doesn't enable us to really to trade him, and we can lose him next year for nothing. Just because no one has offered him 3 years $12MM doesn't mean a team wouldn't trade a first rounder and filler at the deadline for Nate with that deal.

My thoughts exactly. Just because teams are not making offers for Nate now doesn't mean they don't recognize his ability and how it can affect the right team. Just like Lee, when teams know they have a better shot at acquiring his services they will make offers. Nate is instant energy, scoring and excitement. Lee is instant rebounds. These skills alone can and will be very valuable to teams at some point and both players will get the money they deserve.

I think at some point one or both of these guys will come back and bite us in the ass. Why do I think this? Because it always happens that way. This is just the Knick's way of doing things. I hope whatever personnel moves we make make, will lessen the sting of losing these two guys (Nate more than Lee). I also hope they don't go on to win championships and play pivotal roles doing it because it will be very bitter sweet for me.

I trust Donnie and Dan so let's see how this pans out.
eViL
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7/13/2009  5:28 PM
So am I the only one that is concerned that Nate or Lee might go nut next year and put their own free agency agenda over the team if they are playing on QO's?
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Bonn1997
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7/13/2009  5:49 PM
Posted by eViL:

So am I the only one that is concerned that Nate or Lee might go nut next year and put their own free agency agenda over the team if they are playing on QO's?

I think signing the QO is a very bad situation. It gives us zero power. I think you have to threaten these guys; tell them that if they sign the QO, then you're gonna hide them on the bench in their contract years. Nate on a 3 yr, $12 mil contract is highly tradeable.
McK1
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7/13/2009  6:07 PM
also with the QO Nate and Lee's salary for next season will count 125% against the 2010 cap. To move that cap hold they'd have to be renounced and then NY loses their Bird rights completely.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
franco12
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7/13/2009  6:10 PM
Posted by EwingsGlass:

Yeah, we might risk losing him for nothing. Or we could have his rights for use in an Sign and Trade. Or we could sign and trade him right now. In any event, so far, until another team decides they want him (whether this year or next year), we do not have to negotiate with ourselves. If signs an offer sheet at $4m per year, I would likely match that. If he signs one at 5 years $35M, I would thank Nate for his contributions. But until there is another offer, there is no need to delve deeply into negotiations. We have his rights, he doesn't have our rights.

Is it a question of negotiating with yourself? I mean, couldn't Walsh call the other GMs up and say - Would you like Nate in a S&T, and at what price (his contract)? Just ask for filler and first rounder back.
TMS
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7/13/2009  6:13 PM
Posted by eViL:

So am I the only one that is concerned that Nate or Lee might go nut next year and put their own free agency agenda over the team if they are playing on QO's?

it worries me too... this is why the time to trade these guys was last year before the deadline... now if they sign QO's & decide to turn UFA after the season, we in effect lose them w/o getting back any kind of compensation... they will have the power to veto any trade Donnie tries to involve them in... this is not a good way to get full value out of one's assets... unless Donnie can somehow sign Lee & Nate to below market contracts & not just a QO 1 year deal, the Knicks will not be able to trade these guys from any position of strength at this point... not a good thing that we passed up our chance IMO.
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Bonn1997
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7/13/2009  6:14 PM
Posted by McK1:

also with the QO Nate and Lee's salary for next season will count 125% against the 2010 cap. To move that cap hold they'd have to be renounced and then NY loses their Bird rights completely.
That actually might not be such a bad thing if I understand correctly. Basically, D Lee's cap hold would be around $3.3 mil. We could then sign a max contract FA (so long as we had full cap room after counting the $3.3 mil for Lee) or two max FAs if we had that much room. Then, if I understand correctly, we are NOT limited to paying Lee $3.3 mil annually but could offer him anything up to a max contract. I think I read teams can do that but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
McK1
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7/13/2009  6:26 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by McK1:

also with the QO Nate and Lee's salary for next season will count 125% against the 2010 cap. To move that cap hold they'd have to be renounced and then NY loses their Bird rights completely.
That actually might not be such a bad thing if I understand correctly. Basically, D Lee's cap hold would be around $3.3 mil. We could then sign a max contract FA (so long as we had full cap room after counting the $3.3 mil for Lee) or two max FAs if we had that much room. Then, if I understand correctly, we are NOT limited to paying Lee $3.3 mil annually but could offer him anything up to a max contract. I think I read teams can do that but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

not sure thats how it works. QO is a new contract. I believe to regain Bird rights Lee or Nate would have to accept a 1 yr deal after next season then NY gets Early Bird rights.

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-13-2009 6:26 PM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Bonn1997
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7/13/2009  7:06 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by McK1:

also with the QO Nate and Lee's salary for next season will count 125% against the 2010 cap. To move that cap hold they'd have to be renounced and then NY loses their Bird rights completely.
That actually might not be such a bad thing if I understand correctly. Basically, D Lee's cap hold would be around $3.3 mil. We could then sign a max contract FA (so long as we had full cap room after counting the $3.3 mil for Lee) or two max FAs if we had that much room. Then, if I understand correctly, we are NOT limited to paying Lee $3.3 mil annually but could offer him anything up to a max contract. I think I read teams can do that but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

not sure thats how it works. QO is a new contract. I believe to regain Bird rights Lee or Nate would have to accept a 1 yr deal after next season then NY gets Early Bird rights.

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-13-2009 6:26 PM]

This is what I had in mind:
31. Why do free agents continue to count against a team's cap?

It closes another loophole. Teams otherwise would be able to sign other teams' free agents using their cap room, and then turn their attention to their own free agents using the Bird exceptions. This rule restricts their ability to do that. It doesn't close this loophole completely -- for example, in 2005 Michael Redd's free agent amount was $6 million, even though the Bucks intended to re-sign him for the maximum salary. By waiting to sign Redd last, the Bucks were able to take advantage of the difference by signing Bobby Simmons. Had they signed Redd first, they would have had no cap room to sign Simmons.
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q31

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 07-13-2009 7:06 PM]
McK1
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7/13/2009  7:10 PM
Redd was not coming off a QO year when that happened. he was a different type of free agent. He had played 3 seasons on his 1st extension then opted out.

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
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