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please post: espn insider - draft isiah is a genius
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eViL
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6/20/2009  4:36 PM
When judging Isiah's drafting ability, you cannot ignore the fact that he thought Eddy Curry was worth two lottery picks. His work in the lottery, with the Knicks, was atrocious. Let's check it out:

2005 #8 Pick: Channing Frye
2006 #2 & 2007 #9: Eddy Curry

That's three lottery picks right there, three years in a row, and what do we have to show for it??

He hits homeruns late in the draft, where expectations are already low. He picked well early in the draft during his tenure in Toronto. But here, when he had three opportunities to get a game changer in the lottery, he struck out. Lee, Robinson and Ariza are terrific players. But they are above average role players at best. They would have been perfect complements to the possible franchise talent we missed out on thanks to Isiah's lottery failures.
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nixluva
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6/20/2009  4:40 PM
There was nothing wrong with Frye Skills wise, but his head seems to be the biggest issue. A guy that can shoot like that at his size and has good length, should be a better player than he's turned out so far. I still think he could be a Robert Horry type of player in the right role. Horry has even stiffer legs than Frye and yet he hustled hard to overcome that.
Allanfan20
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6/20/2009  5:34 PM
Posted by nixluva:

There was nothing wrong with Frye Skills wise, but his head seems to be the biggest issue. A guy that can shoot like that at his size and has good length, should be a better player than he's turned out so far. I still think he could be a Robert Horry type of player in the right role. Horry has even stiffer legs than Frye and yet he hustled hard to overcome that.

Robert Horry was a 3 point shooter who could move the ball around at times and play defense. So far, I'd rather have Horry, but Frye showed that he had more skills on the perimeter and in the post. He just didn't always have that much confidence.
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Cosmic
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6/20/2009  6:14 PM
Isiah's Knick track record isn't all that great.

Lee = Brendan Suhr's pick. Isiah wanted Taft but was persuaded otherwise.
Nate was a good pick.
Ariza was a good pick.
Chandler an okay pick - I think he is vastly overrated.
Frye was a total bust.
Balkman and Collins total busts.

You have to call that average IMO - breaking even.

I don't see the legend that precedes him when speaking of his Knicks' tenure.
He did well in Toronto but did he not have multiple lotto picks to grab Camby, TMac, Stoudamire? I forget if Vince was even his pick or not?

Average Knick drafter - horrendous trader = total failure.
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masud
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6/21/2009  3:42 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:

He made good picks, but him selecting Channing Frye was one of the worst in team history, considering who was left. Very short sighted and I thought that was the moment he really deserved to be fired.

No Frye was just a failure, you can't blame Zeke for that. And the fact that Frye is still in the league means that pick is far from the worst in team history.
Allanfan20
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6/21/2009  4:32 AM
I said one of the worst.
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Bonn1997
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6/21/2009  7:56 AM
A big point of this article is that in a 10 plus year career you can't single out any one or two draft picks. If you want to get a valid evaluation of the GM's drafting, you need to look at the entire body of work.
Bippity10
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6/22/2009  12:06 PM
No GM is going to be perfect. Isiah did a good job drafting. He got great value with late picks and had some success with early picks as well. Frye, Balkman and Collins were horrible picks, but again no one is perfect. His body of work is pretty good when you look at it fairly, especially with his later picks.

Unfortunately selecting a draft pick is about 1/20th of the job of a GM. It's like saying a player runs real fast so let's draft him. Isiah got rid of draft picks for overhyped players in return and botched pretty much every other aspect of the job.

Can we move on from this mess?
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Pharzeone
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6/22/2009  12:25 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

No GM is going to be perfect. Isiah did a good job drafting. He got great value with late picks and had some success with early picks as well. Frye, Balkman and Collins were horrible picks, but again no one is perfect. His body of work is pretty good when you look at it fairly, especially with his later picks.

Unfortunately selecting a draft pick is about 1/20th of the job of a GM. It's like saying a player runs real fast so let's draft him. Isiah got rid of draft picks for overhyped players in return and botched pretty much every other aspect of the job.

Can we move on from this mess?

When did the Collins pick become a horrible pick? He was the 29th pick in the first round. The only guy that I would take over him right now is Milisap who was drafted in the middle of the second round. I would have to think about Powe real hard but I doubt I would do it. Take a look back at that draft and ask yourself where are those guys drafted after him.


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SupremeCommander
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6/22/2009  12:35 PM
I look at it this way. Isiah Thomas did draft well. He is also the moron that reached the conclusion, "the best way to turn this franchise around is to trade lotto picks--IT'S SO CRAZY IT JUST MIGHT WORK!!!"
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Solace
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6/22/2009  12:54 PM
So, I happen to peek in for a moment, and what a shock... a post about Isiah.

I think there's a few major flaws with this article in regards to Isiah if you're applying to the Knicks:
1) His Toronto history obviously weighs heavily and that hasn't really been a part of most people's arguments against Isiah.
2) He tended to draft much lower than most people and then choose athletic players who could make an immediate impact but ultimately had low ceilings.
3) His teams still had terrible win records, even with his "awesome" drafting.
4) Why are GMs getting penalized so heavily for picks that didn't work out but had high ceilings? That makes no sense. Rod Thorn the second worst drafter? Seriously, that's ridiculous. So, hypothetically, if you draft a hall of famer and a bust both at the #1 picks, you broke even? How does that even make sense? On the flipside, someone like Isiah gets too much credit for drafting mediocre players who are "above average" at slots when a lot of people get guys who simply don't play because the often chose potential or project players over instant impact.

Ultimately, I think the way it's presented here is one way to look at the metrics, but as I've explained countless times and it's not worth getting into again, I think there's other more important metrics that are clearly being excluded here. Again, if Rod Thorn is the second worst drafter, there's something wrong with the metrics. To be honest, though, I really don't care, and only responded because Bonn mentioned it.

Off topic: How's everyone doing?

[Edited by - Solace on Jun 22 2009 12:58 PM]
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JrZyHuStLa
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6/22/2009  1:06 PM
Posted by Cosmic:

Isiah's Knick track record isn't all that great.

Lee = Brendan Suhr's pick. Isiah wanted Taft but was persuaded otherwise.
Nate was a good pick.
Ariza was a good pick.
Chandler an okay pick - I think he is vastly overrated.
Frye was a total bust.
Balkman and Collins total busts.

You have to call that average IMO - breaking even.

I don't see the legend that precedes him when speaking of his Knicks' tenure.
He did well in Toronto but did he not have multiple lotto picks to grab Camby, TMac, Stoudamire? I forget if Vince was even his pick or not?

Average Knick drafter - horrendous trader = total failure.

Totally agree. Mega overrated.

He hasn't drafted an all star.
JrZyHuStLa
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6/22/2009  1:08 PM
Posted by masud:
Posted by Allanfan20:

He made good picks, but him selecting Channing Frye was one of the worst in team history, considering who was left. Very short sighted and I thought that was the moment he really deserved to be fired.

No Frye was just a failure, you can't blame Zeke for that. And the fact that Frye is still in the league means that pick is far from the worst in team history.

What are you talking about ?

If you can't blame the guy who drafted him, who can you blame ?
MS
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6/22/2009  1:39 PM
Jim Paxson really???

Where is Golden State on that list. They have some of the best finds, Arenas, Ellis, Randolph, etc
Nalod
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6/22/2009  2:07 PM
Way to many holes in this theory to validate. Isiah's teams sucked (where he was in a position to draft) so he either got good positions or did better on athletic guys in the low rounds and they got instant playing time.

Lets put it this way, Thorn did some pretty good work. Does he get hit for Griffin pick? Jefferson and Collins were pretty good for the team. Kmart went to the finals twice and they were smart enought o sign and trade than overpay him. He was the bones by which they got Vince on the cheap.

As a drafter, Thorn did ok. Isiah did great in the lower rounds. T-mac was a highschool kid but really did not become a star until he was traded. Not his fault. Camby was kind of seen as a failure in Toronto. I don't fault him for Frye as Frye was more ready to play and I thought he had a really good rookie year. He got hurt, lost his mojo, and perhaps got lost with coaching change. It happens. Im not saying he was ever gonna be a star, but many players get lost with the wrong coach, wrong team and wrong contract situation. Naturally DLee as the steal of the draft.

Isiah was a very good drafter, but its not like he put together a championship roster via the draft. His moronic trades and coaching moves really negated his good moves. Larry was a bad hire, and allowing him to influence the francis trade with he used Reezy was awful. He then used a pick the next year for Balky. We all saw this year what Reezy could do with his nose for the ball. He was a game changer with his steels and rebounds!

Its the past. Isiah is no genius.
Allanfan20
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6/22/2009  3:31 PM
Look at it like this:

:Isiahs trades were awful.
:Isiahs free agent signings were awful.
:Isiah managed the team as bad as they get...
:He was proven guilty in his sexual harrassment lawsuit.
:A lot of players didn't have his back nor respect him, seemingly. It's obvious by their lack of effort.
:His coaching wasn't particularly good when he was here.

He had no choice BUT to be an outstanding drafter with all of that other stuff, and he damn well have better hit home runs with his one lotto pick. He did not.

He was very good good at times and awful at others. He was nothing special. Look at it like that.

He gets no free pass b/c of his drafting. Look at it that way.
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Bippity10
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6/22/2009  4:20 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by Bippity10:

No GM is going to be perfect. Isiah did a good job drafting. He got great value with late picks and had some success with early picks as well. Frye, Balkman and Collins were horrible picks, but again no one is perfect. His body of work is pretty good when you look at it fairly, especially with his later picks.

Unfortunately selecting a draft pick is about 1/20th of the job of a GM. It's like saying a player runs real fast so let's draft him. Isiah got rid of draft picks for overhyped players in return and botched pretty much every other aspect of the job.

Can we move on from this mess?

When did the Collins pick become a horrible pick? He was the 29th pick in the first round. The only guy that I would take over him right now is Milisap who was drafted in the middle of the second round. I would have to think about Powe real hard but I doubt I would do it. Take a look back at that draft and ask yourself where are those guys drafted after him.

Collins became a horrible pick the day we drafted him.

We had a shot at Rondo early and passed. We had a chance on Milsap late. Instead we drafted Collins, gave him little run in 3 years and then he is gone. We would have been better off trading the pick.
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TMS
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6/22/2009  4:57 PM
Posted by JrZyHuStLa:
Posted by masud:
Posted by Allanfan20:

He made good picks, but him selecting Channing Frye was one of the worst in team history, considering who was left. Very short sighted and I thought that was the moment he really deserved to be fired.

No Frye was just a failure, you can't blame Zeke for that. And the fact that Frye is still in the league means that pick is far from the worst in team history.

What are you talking about ?

If you can't blame the guy who drafted him, who can you blame ?

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Bonn1997
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6/22/2009  5:23 PM
Hey Solace, you're back! Where ya been?
So, hypothetically, if you draft a hall of famer and a bust both at the #1 picks, you broke even?
Are you sure that's how their formula works?
Solace
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6/22/2009  6:49 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Hey Solace, you're back! Where ya been?
So, hypothetically, if you draft a hall of famer and a bust both at the #1 picks, you broke even?
Are you sure that's how their formula works?

Well basically, it seems to be compared against the average for that slot. Just seems like an extremely bogus way to compare. Also, shouldn't the higher picks be weighted more heavily?

As for where I've been, eh... just not hanging around the forums. Unfortunately, I guess I just don't care that much about the Knicks these days. How on things on your end?
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