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Scoring efficiency and the Curry lovers
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fishmike
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6/5/2009  12:49 PM
who cares about his numbers. JW.. you ever watch the kid play? Can he or cant he?

I mean geeze... if a guy has some glaring fault that says he isnt going to make it in the NBA ok, but Curry already proved he is faster, stronger and has the vert that most of the other guys considered to be more 'elite athletes' and Curry can already play.

I get you dont like him. I think everyone gets you dont like him. Posting a stat breakdown (PS Hollinger sucks) on the kid is going to accomplish what?

He took a no talent team to the sweet 16 completely by himself.. and was one shot away from the final 4. Where's that stat?

Curry can play, he's a good athlete. He's got NBA pedigree, he's a great kid. His worth ethic and heart are already at the NBA level. He's got an NBA skill set.

I always liked him at 8. At this point I would like him at 5 if we could move up. To get him we probably will have too, because NBA GMs are looking at what I just mentioned above, and not some picture your trying to paint in an excel spreadsheet
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Bippity10
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6/5/2009  12:55 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:
Posted by Bippity10:

These numbers do nothing to explain what actually went on with curry. This guy was literally the sole focus of other teams yet he still put up great point and assist numbers. One team actually double teamed him on every trip, even when he didn't have the ball. I don't know if it will translate at the NBA level but curry clearly proved himself at the college level enough where we shouldn't be analyzing his college numbers. I'm more concerned about strength, size and can he run the point.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 05-06-2009 11:13 AM]

Bip, I wanted it to be yet another anti-Curry post, but his numbers are actually pretty good. I think this is a fair comparison though as far as the numbers go. As I've stated before, there is just as much attention payed and better defenders paying it on guys like Meeks, Maynor, Mills... all the lead guards that are scoring half the points on their teams are getting plenty of attention to call this a fair analysis. Holiday's number is most distressing because he didn't have to force shots. I'd have to argue that he was playing out of position to reconcile his numbers, and I don't think that makes up for the differential.

I understand what you were getting at but I think Curry's situation is unique. he didn't get "plenty of attention", he got all of the attention. Nobody else on that team could play. His numbers are impressive under those circumstances to me. When faced with tough competition, better defenders and still being the only player teams focused on he was able to

Oklahoma 44 points
NC State 44 points
WV 27 points, 10 assists and dominated the end of the game
Purdue 13 points, 8 rebounds, 6 assists
Duke 29 points, 8 rebounds, 6 assists
Butler 20 points, 5 rebounds, 6 assists.

Not saying he's better than anyone else, but considering the circumstances he played under, he did what college stars are supposed to do. Not many whould have done better. Again, I understand what you are getting at, but I dont' think the man's college numbers are a question. Ability maybe, but his college numbers would be difficult for anyone to match under the circumstances.
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nyk4ever
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6/5/2009  12:55 PM
Posted by fishmike:

who cares about his numbers. JW.. you ever watch the kid play? Can he or cant he?

I mean geeze... if a guy has some glaring fault that says he isnt going to make it in the NBA ok, but Curry already proved he is faster, stronger and has the vert that most of the other guys considered to be more 'elite athletes' and Curry can already play.

I get you dont like him. I think everyone gets you dont like him. Posting a stat breakdown (PS Hollinger sucks) on the kid is going to accomplish what?

He took a no talent team to the sweet 16 completely by himself.. and was one shot away from the final 4. Where's that stat?

Curry can play, he's a good athlete. He's got NBA pedigree, he's a great kid. His worth ethic and heart are already at the NBA level. He's got an NBA skill set.

I always liked him at 8. At this point I would like him at 5 if we could move up. To get him we probably will have too, because NBA GMs are looking at what I just mentioned above, and not some picture your trying to paint in an excel spreadsheet

Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Bippity10
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6/5/2009  12:58 PM
If the man can run the point, there is absolutely no reason to question his NBA talent. Every other ability he has is more than adequate and some of it is off the charts good. His shot and mental make-up are unmatched in this draft.
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Finestrg
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6/5/2009  1:01 PM
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by JohnWallace44:
Posted by firefly:

JW, I was struck by the amount of FT's Jrue Holiday attempted compared to the rest of the PG field. For a guy you want to come inside and be a physical presence, his FT attempted number must be giving you pause for thought.
Stephon Curry - 220-251
Jrue Holiday - 45-62
Tyreke Evans - 138-194
Flynn - 180-229
Maynor - 198-243
Lawson - 166-208
Derozan - 95-147
Rubio - 83-103 (Spain - 25 Games)
...... - 18-23 (Spain Olympics - 8 Games)
...... - 5-8 (Spain EuroLeague - 5 Games)
Collison - 113-126
Meeks - 211-234
Jennings - 24-31 (Italy - EuroLeague - 16 Games)
...... - 20-31 (Italy - 27 Games)
Westbrook - 95-114

Holiday attempted a quarter of Currys makes. Doesnt show him to be very interested in contact, to me.

Ultimately my arguments are based on two things...
1 - the size advantage that Holiday, Evans, Derozan have would make us more competitive on defense against guys like Harris, Pierce, Allen, Rondo, Miller, Vince, etc. I don't see Curry helping us out there.

2 - The size also should come into play on offense in terms of scoring efficiency because the LeBron/Wade/Kobe's are scoring in bunches at MSG by getting to the line, not by hitting jumpers.

Holiday continues to be a complete projection because he was misused by UCLA. His numbers are concerning though.

Looking at these numbers that we've pulled in this thread, it gives me a better feeling about Derozan, Flynn and Meeks.

Drafting Derozan is looking more and more like the way to go from my perspective. That would give you upside and value on the top of the draft. And then if we can pick up a late selection from Minny, Memphis or Portland and pick up Beaubois (1.37 ppsa) late you'd be utilizing the extraordinary point guard depth in the draft as well.

Beaubois/Duhon
Derozan/Hughes
Chandler
Gallo/Al Jr
Darko/Jeffries

With a Memphis trade we could end up with a team like this. Beaubois could be Collison or Lawson as well if you prefer.

I like this plan the more that I think about it. You could pull value from the top and bottom of the draft.

Hopefully Derozan drops to us.

That is a pretty good plan but I like this plan better if it were to happen. Lets say the Memphis trade does happen and the Knicks are able to get another pick and darko. Knicks select if he were there Curry at 8. With the Memphis pick they select Taj Gibson. Now the KNicks look like this.

Curry/Duhon pg
Chandler/hughes sg
Darko/Curry C
Gallo/Harrington sf
Gibson/JJ pf

Good call V-man, that would be a tremendous off-season right there - Darko, Curry and Gibson. I'd be very happy with that.

Some other things I think are important here:

(1) Move up from 8 to secure Curry - if they want him, that's what they'll need to do and they should be thinking about that right now. We have some nice assets to work with.
(2) S&T both Lee and Nate and bring back value as in expiring contracts and picks and/or a young salary-controlled player or two (we gotta also pick up a 2010 1st rounder in those S&Ts - center prospect AJ Olgivy continues to intrigue me for the Knicks next year but they'll be other nice players in the 2010 draft as well. We can't just accept not having a pick next year).
(3) Come up with one more rotation shooter somewhere on the cheap - either with a 2nd rounder we acquire somehow or with an undrafted summer league invitee. Invite good, promising players to camp this off-season for once - not just the typical stiffs we bring in every year.
JohnWallace44
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6/5/2009  1:03 PM
Posted by fishmike:

who cares about his numbers. JW.. you ever watch the kid play? Can he or cant he?

I mean geeze... if a guy has some glaring fault that says he isnt going to make it in the NBA ok, but Curry already proved he is faster, stronger and has the vert that most of the other guys considered to be more 'elite athletes' and Curry can already play.

I get you dont like him. I think everyone gets you dont like him. Posting a stat breakdown (PS Hollinger sucks) on the kid is going to accomplish what?

He took a no talent team to the sweet 16 completely by himself.. and was one shot away from the final 4. Where's that stat?

Curry can play, he's a good athlete. He's got NBA pedigree, he's a great kid. His worth ethic and heart are already at the NBA level. He's got an NBA skill set.

I always liked him at 8. At this point I would like him at 5 if we could move up. To get him we probably will have too, because NBA GMs are looking at what I just mentioned above, and not some picture your trying to paint in an excel spreadsheet

Fish, I've seen so many guys who I've loved to see play on the college level, but they aren't cut out for the NBA. Charlotte made a habit of drafting them for a while. So has Minny, and where are they?

Curry works as a complimentary piece, but since we don't have a 2010 pick, you're then saying that you're drafting a guy to be Boobie Gibson, to be Derek Fisher, to be BJ Armstrong. That's all well and good if you have LeBron, Kobe or Jordan on the roster, but we don't.

Its 3rd down and 5 to go for the Knicks, and you're saying run a draw play, I'm saying let's throw it, there's not much time left on the clock.

I can't make my brain accept the assumption that Curry will do what he did in college when Reddick and Morrison can't get it done. Neither can Morris Almond or a host of other similar players. The guys who have been able to replicate that kind of play are much bigger, like Rip, Korver and Ray Allen. Those players are also playing off of other guards who penetrate. I don't see the Mayor taking such a huge step that he's going to be driving and kicking to Curry next year on a regular basis.

Derozan is the way to go from an offensive and defensive perspective and you trade back into the late first to take a shot on a PG.

That's the way to go. Sounds like the Warriors will mess it up and take Derozan early, and then I don't know what the answer is, but if you can do it, Derozan early, one of Collison, Beaubois, Lawson late is the way to go.


Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Vmart
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6/5/2009  1:09 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

That is a pretty good plan but I like this plan better if it were to happen. Lets say the Memphis trade does happen and the
Knicks are able to get another pick and darko. Knicks select if he were there Curry at 8. With the Memphis pick they select Taj Gibson. Now the KNicks look like this.

Curry/Duhon pg
Chandler/hughes sg
Darko/Curry C
Gallo/Harrington sf
Gibson/JJ pf

To me, that's exactly what I wouldn't do.

Curry... great. I don't see how that moves the needle for the Knicks in terms of size, defense, and even offense when you consider he's replacing Nate.

Gibson... yawn. Again, he helps a little on defense, but can he do all of the other things that Lee did?

Match that team up against the Nets/Celts/Sixers and we're getting beat at every position.

Derozan changes that equation and you pick the best PG available late and hope to catch lightning in a bottle like the Celts did with Rondo.

Can Gibson do what Lee can you have Gallo playing PF can he do what Lee can? He probably can and some. I see Gallo more of a sf than a pf. at least this way you have balance. You want to hang with the though team and create mismatches in favor of the Knicks by using height and weight then your better off having Gallo at sf and Chandler at sg and bringing in Gibson who can at least provide help defense, rebounding and some scoring.

I like wing players that are athletic just anyone else on the board. But Chandler provides that and Curry as his results show is very athletic. To me the most important thing to winning in the NBA is having a very athletic front line. That has shot blocking capabilities. There should be a good amount of height and athleticism. The Knicks have to address that need too. If the Knicks can get Curry and Gibson in this draft I will be happy. But like I said Curry isn't going to be there at 8 so you have nothing to worry about. I'll take Derozan, Evans, Holiday as long as they pan out then its a good draft choice. as long as they are a knick I'll root for their success.
fishmike
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6/5/2009  1:13 PM
well.. thats where we disagree. I think Curry has much more talent that Derek Fisher or BJ Armstrong. I also think he's a far superior player than Morrison and Reddick. Reddick especially who benefitted from always being on teams with superior talent.

Derozan is 2-3 years away from being Wilson Chandler. He's a prospect. If this was a better draft he's a guy a team would be happy to take 15-25 because of the upside. He's so raw and unskilled and so many of these guys pick up a $1.8mm a year paycheck and playing BB just isnt the most exciting thing anymore. History is riddled with them.

What the Knicks need (if we are drafting by need) is someone thats going to be a good player. Not every pick yields an all star... sometimes its OK to take the best guy on the board even if someone behind him can jump higher.

I will say this... If we pick Derozan I wont complain. I know MDA will have input, and DW has had time to do full research here. I have confidence in whoever they pick.

Dont be suprised to see DW trade up using all that Mobley money and take Thabeet
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JohnWallace44
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6/5/2009  1:18 PM
Lee was our center last year in 75% of the game situations. Are you saying JJ was our center? Gallo was drafted to play the 4 spot.

VMart, what's going to happen on the other end? If you're so convinced that Curry and Chandler can be our scoring punch, what's going on at the other end?

How would we match up against the teams in the Atlantic with Curry selected #8 and a big selected late?

Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Ira
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6/5/2009  1:23 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

I've been begging the Curry lovers to come up with some actual evidence you can point to that backs up your claim that he's the best pick the Knicks can make and nobody has said anything other than he's got heart. Well, I did your homework for you. You can thank me later.

Curry took his team to the ncaa's last year and beat three better teams - Gonzaga, Georgetown and Wisconsin. If I remember, Georgetown was a 2 seed and Wisconsin a 3. Davidson finally lost to Kansas by two points and Kansas went on to win the tournament.

fishmike
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6/5/2009  1:24 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:
How would we match up against the teams in the Atlantic with Curry selected #8 and a big selected late?
we won 32 games. Lets build a team that follows a style of play and can win some games. We can worry about match ups when we are losing in the first and second round each year

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
kam77
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6/5/2009  1:51 PM
Based off the discussion and stats on this thread:

Flynn > Holliday (becasue he gets to the line more)

But i'd be wary of both (low %s)
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
JohnWallace44
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6/5/2009  2:13 PM
Posted by kam77:

Based off the discussion and stats on this thread:

Flynn > Holliday (becasue he gets to the line more)

But i'd be wary of both (low %s)

The stats tell me that all the PG's are scary to some extent, so take Derozan and get a PG with a late pick. There will never be another draft with this many PG's, so you'll get risk/reward value late.

In those combine films, Collison and Beaubois look good too. You get the most value if you take a shot on one of them late.

If Derozan can't be had early... it would be gut check time, but I think I'd take Holiday over Evans and Hill. Holiday just looks out of place in the UCLA film, but you can see what he's capable of and its time for the Knicks to make a serious, "we're trying to win a championship" type pick, rather than the Frye, Sweetney type picks that we've become accustom to early in the drafts.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
JohnWallace44
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6/5/2009  2:15 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by JohnWallace44:
How would we match up against the teams in the Atlantic with Curry selected #8 and a big selected late?
we won 32 games. Lets build a team that follows a style of play and can win some games. We can worry about match ups when we are losing in the first and second round each year

Fish, what's your strategy to win games if we can't match up with Toronto, Philly, Boston or New Jersey?
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Bippity10
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6/5/2009  2:28 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by JohnWallace44:
How would we match up against the teams in the Atlantic with Curry selected #8 and a big selected late?
we won 32 games. Lets build a team that follows a style of play and can win some games. We can worry about match ups when we are losing in the first and second round each year

Fish, what's your strategy to win games if we can't match up with Toronto, Philly, Boston or New Jersey?

Seriously, when you are building you can't worry about matchups. By the time we are truly set up to compete their rosters may be very different. We need to worry about building a balanced team first, then we can worry about how we match up.
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fishmike
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6/5/2009  3:07 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by JohnWallace44:
How would we match up against the teams in the Atlantic with Curry selected #8 and a big selected late?
we won 32 games. Lets build a team that follows a style of play and can win some games. We can worry about match ups when we are losing in the first and second round each year

Fish, what's your strategy to win games if we can't match up with Toronto, Philly, Boston or New Jersey?
we just arent there yet... your way ahead of yourself. If this was Nascar your worrying about who we are racing against. I'm worrying about where we are going to get a car.

first things first.

What kind of team do we have? What is our style of play? Who are our core players?

Lets take the BPA that fits into what we are trying to do. Rubio, Evans, Curry, Thabeet, Harden, Terrence Williams are all guys that would be core players moving forward and help us out of the box.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
JohnWallace44
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6/5/2009  3:45 PM
Fish I just disagree. Look at our young players. Lee and Nate are gone this year.

We don't have a pick next year.

Chandler is going to need to be resigned soon.

The years go by fast. You need to hit on something this year. You can't continue to roll out bit players and face them up against physically superior teams.

The 2010 thing has to be a bonus, not a plan.

We draft Curry, I'm not watching this crap team go up against NBA squads with real players. They're going to get smacked every trip down without Nate and Lee and continuing to have a mismatch at the 1 and 5.

That's not a real team. I'll just tune in for the 2010 FA deadline and see where we're at then.

What does style of play have to do with it either? Do any of the top guards keep us from running 7-seconds-or-less offense?
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Finestrg
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6/5/2009  4:13 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Lee was our center last year in 75% of the game situations. Are you saying JJ was our center? Gallo was drafted to play the 4 spot.

VMart, what's going to happen on the other end? If you're so convinced that Curry and Chandler can be our scoring punch, what's going on at the other end?

How would we match up against the teams in the Atlantic with Curry selected #8 and a big selected late?

Bro, unless I'm misreading you, you're acting like the team's a done deal after the draft. No one is saying that. Curry our only scoring punch? JJ2 our center? I don't follow you. It's a work in progress, the whole thing. It's all about adding pieces to the puzzle and Curry and Taj Gibson are two real nice pieces to add to the mix moving forward. Then there's more draft picks we can hopefully add this year (people can say whatever the hell they want - this is a pretty deep draft, there's a ton of talent in this draft even into the second round), potential trades to consider (I love the Q-Rich+ for Darko and a pick deal if we ever get that done), next year's draft - provided we can acquire a 1st rounder somehow, 2010 free agency (where the idea is to add a major piece, possibly two) and beyond.. Rebuilding a team takes time. We can't do it all by the end of the summer. If JJ2 has to play a little this year before we unload him, then he's gotta play a little. If Gallo proved healthy and they wanted to try him at the 4, let them try him at the 4. If S. Curry needed to assume a scoring role right away then so be it. If we acquired Taj Gibson and he winds up starting next season at PF in the event we traded Lee, that'd be fine with me. I'm not expecting to go to the finals next year.. Baby steps bro..

[Edited by - finestrg on 06-05-2009 4:29 PM]
JohnWallace44
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6/5/2009  4:31 PM
Finestrg - we've been rebuilding since the Camby/Ewing trades. The whole scorched earth thing is great and all leading into 2010, but what I'm saying is that you need to build some momentum this season instead of starting from a full stop in 2010.

Curry, if he does well to me is a Boobie Gibson/Derek Fisher/BJ Armstrong type.

He's not a born & bred point, nor does he have the size to really become one as far as completely breaking down the defense and creating from there.

Now, BJ was a good defender. I don't see Curry doing as well as him, again due to his build and you can look at his combine results all you want, but Harden had a good combine too, I've never seen him use those skills in a game situation.

Taj Gibson is not a center.

I mean, what are you trying to build here?

LeBron and Wade are not coming, you know that's a pipe dream.

To the point about making deals this year after the draft, what do you see us doing to get real pieces? Whatever we bring in will be a one year rental and they're not going to be as good as the expirings that we have or else why is the trade being made?

If Donnie's doing his job, you'll see Harrington traded for an expiring player who's terrible and get a pick out of it for 2010.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
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6/5/2009  6:00 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Curry, if he does well to me is a Boobie Gibson/Derek Fisher/BJ Armstrong type.

He's not a born & bred point, nor does he have the size to really become one as far as completely breaking down the defense and creating from there.

Now, BJ was a good defender. I don't see Curry doing as well as him, again due to his build and you can look at his combine results all you want, but Harden had a good combine too, I've never seen him use those skills in a game situation.

Regarding Curry being a Boobie Gibson type, I think that's a bit rough. You may not accept this but guys that know seem to feel that Curry will make the transition to PG. He's already shown that he has a great touch on his passes and that he can read plays before they develop. I think he's smart enough to learn the intricacies of the position and if he comes here, I fully expect MDA to mold him into a Nash type of PG. Not saying he'll be exactly like him, but close enough for what we need.

We've just learned that he's not as slow as we thought and he's more athletic than we thought. He's stronger than we thought as well.
Some guys are just slim, but they have good strength. He seems to be that type of guy. Not unlike a Payton or Prince. Don't let the skinny frame fool you. Curry benched 185 10x, DeRozan only 5x, Evans only 7x, Jrue 6x. Now other PG's did as well or better than Curry, but clearly he's FAR FROM WEAK! So please stop saying that he is.

Compare Curry with Jrue. Curry is 6.3.25 181 lbs and JRue is 6.4.25 199 lbs. Curry has a 6'.3.5" wingspan and an 8'.1" Standing reach, Jrue Holliday is 6'.7" and 8'.4.5". Now Jrue is an inch taller and is a long guy to begin with, but he's only just a bit longer than Curry. So IMO Curry isn't a small PG.
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