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Mike D'Antoni is the best coach in the NBA!
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GKFv2
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6/2/2009  6:20 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by djsunyc:

i think mda allows his players to score. he gets players that can score and allows them to do so. but imho, the jury is still out in terms of x's and o's b/c without nash running a team, he hasn't won more than 35 games.
You can't win 50-60 games regularly without talent on the court. But you also can't win 50-60 games regularly without being a good coach.

And you don't win championships without playing defense...


The Lakers and Magic are both in the Finals and it isn't for their defensive prowess. Therefore sir, you fail.
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martin
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6/2/2009  6:32 PM
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by djsunyc:

i think mda allows his players to score. he gets players that can score and allows them to do so. but imho, the jury is still out in terms of x's and o's b/c without nash running a team, he hasn't won more than 35 games.
You can't win 50-60 games regularly without talent on the court. But you also can't win 50-60 games regularly without being a good coach.

And you don't win championships without playing defense...


The Lakers and Magic are both in the Finals and it isn't for their defensive prowess. Therefore sir, you fail.

Lakers and Magic were top 4 defensively efficient teams in the NBA according to John Hollinger stats.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats?sort=defeff&seasonType=3&league=nba

You fail.
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GKFv2
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6/2/2009  6:35 PM
It is well-known that Hollinger's stats mean jack squat. Seriously, it has little to no meaning on what happens on the court. If you saw the Lakers-Nuggets series you would see that their defense, especially in the low post, was terrible. The Magic have Howard. That's all they need. Pietrus and Lee are good perimeter defenders. The rest of the team isn't good defensively. They won because they could shoot the ball from everywhere on the court. I think Donnie and D'Antoni want to build a team similar to the Magic. A defensive force in the middle, a couple of good perimeter defenders who also happen to be great shooters and a team that pushes the ball up the court every time up.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
martin
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6/2/2009  6:41 PM
Posted by GKFv2:

It is well-known that Hollinger's stats mean jack squat. Seriously, it has little to no meaning on what happens on the court. If you saw the Lakers-Nuggets series you would see that their defense, especially in the low post, was terrible. The Magic have Howard. That's all they need. Pietrus and Lee are good perimeter defenders. The rest of the team isn't good defensively. They won because they could shoot the ball from everywhere on the court. I think Donnie and D'Antoni want to build a team similar to the Magic. A defensive force in the middle, a couple of good perimeter defenders who also happen to be great shooters and a team that pushes the ball up the court every time up.

how can you argue with a stat that say, this is how many points a team defense gives up per 100 possessions over the span of 82 games?

Both the Lakers and the Magic are also in the top 5 for offensive efficiency too, but to say that both Lakers and Orlando are there and it's not because of their defensive prowess is folly.

And then to add a line like "you fail", well sir, that's pretty arrogant.
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GKFv2
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6/2/2009  6:55 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by GKFv2:

It is well-known that Hollinger's stats mean jack squat. Seriously, it has little to no meaning on what happens on the court. If you saw the Lakers-Nuggets series you would see that their defense, especially in the low post, was terrible. The Magic have Howard. That's all they need. Pietrus and Lee are good perimeter defenders. The rest of the team isn't good defensively. They won because they could shoot the ball from everywhere on the court. I think Donnie and D'Antoni want to build a team similar to the Magic. A defensive force in the middle, a couple of good perimeter defenders who also happen to be great shooters and a team that pushes the ball up the court every time up.

how can you argue with a stat that say, this is how many points a team defense gives up per 100 possessions over the span of 82 games?

Both the Lakers and the Magic are also in the top 5 for offensive efficiency too, but to say that both Lakers and Orlando are there and it's not because of their defensive prowess is folly.

And then to add a line like "you fail", well sir, that's pretty arrogant.

It's not folly because I've seen their style of play by watching a lot of their games and I can see they are not a defensive-oriented team. The Cavs were a defensive-oriented team. What happened to them? Offense can win out too and in this case it has. There is no way someone like holfresh can repeatedly say that Mike's system is a failure and can't win a title. Nobody knows that. This NBA Finals has also proven otherwise. I love my teams to play defense but it's not the only way you can win a title.

And the you fail was a half joke, half serious. Holfresh sells the same line about how you can't win a title unless your team is playing Larry Brown-type defense. That is just a false statement. This series is a good example of it.

[Edited by - gkfv2 on 06-02-2009 6:56 PM]
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
CrushAlot
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6/2/2009  7:56 PM
Teams don't have to have a bogged down offense to be defensive teams. Mike Brown did have his team focus on defense but that does not mean that the Magic and Lakers are not good defensive teams.
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nixluva
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6/2/2009  9:56 PM
As i've said before, you have to have balance. You want to have good team period, not necessarily a defensive team or an offensive team. MDA's teams played to their strength and still defended well. You can't have a Point Diff of +7 Playing in the WESTERN CONF. over an 82 game season without playing D. MDA's teams weren't trying to play grind it out D. They were looking to force teams to take bad shots and to play the passing lanes so they could get steals and get out on the break. It's a different approach, but it can be effective.

He had a PG that shot 50% and an ultra efficient offensive style. Don't tell me that it's a bad thing for our team to look to shoot 50% and 39% from 3. No matter how good your D is you have to score too. I think Walsh and MDA will be looking to build a well balanced team.
martin
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6/3/2009  12:17 AM
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by martin:
Posted by GKFv2:

It is well-known that Hollinger's stats mean jack squat. Seriously, it has little to no meaning on what happens on the court. If you saw the Lakers-Nuggets series you would see that their defense, especially in the low post, was terrible. The Magic have Howard. That's all they need. Pietrus and Lee are good perimeter defenders. The rest of the team isn't good defensively. They won because they could shoot the ball from everywhere on the court. I think Donnie and D'Antoni want to build a team similar to the Magic. A defensive force in the middle, a couple of good perimeter defenders who also happen to be great shooters and a team that pushes the ball up the court every time up.

how can you argue with a stat that say, this is how many points a team defense gives up per 100 possessions over the span of 82 games?

Both the Lakers and the Magic are also in the top 5 for offensive efficiency too, but to say that both Lakers and Orlando are there and it's not because of their defensive prowess is folly.

And then to add a line like "you fail", well sir, that's pretty arrogant.

It's not folly because I've seen their style of play by watching a lot of their games and I can see they are not a defensive-oriented team. The Cavs were a defensive-oriented team. What happened to them? Offense can win out too and in this case it has. There is no way someone like holfresh can repeatedly say that Mike's system is a failure and can't win a title. Nobody knows that. This NBA Finals has also proven otherwise. I love my teams to play defense but it's not the only way you can win a title.

And the you fail was a half joke, half serious. Holfresh sells the same line about how you can't win a title unless your team is playing Larry Brown-type defense. That is just a false statement. This series is a good example of it.

[Edited by - gkfv2 on 06-02-2009 6:56 PM]

being an very good offensive team is not mutually exclusive of being a very good defensive team.

The only other argument you have offered is that you have watched Orlando and they are not a defensive team. That's weak.

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GKFv2
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6/3/2009  12:31 AM
It is not mutually exclusive but Orlando and Los Angeles are not world beaters on defense. The Lakers low post defense is terrible and soft. But they have Kobe so it works out in the end. Orlando has Howard. It's more than just defense to win a title. Of course teams can't win a title by playing Isiah/Knicks-era defense. You have to play defense in order to get to where these teams are but you can make up for some defensive mishaps if you have some outstanding offensive players. Both teams have that.

Therefore you don't have to have some lockdown Van Gundy/Riley defense that holfresh proposes. He forgets D'Antoni's teams almost went to the Finals and they ranked in the top 5 or top 10 in those Hollinger stats on defense. They also lose Nash (and Amare I think?) to suspension because of Horry and lost the series to the Spurs and never got close again. D'Antoni's system got them 55 wins a year and inches away from going to the NBA Finals. He is a damn good coach.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
martin
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6/3/2009  12:43 AM
Posted by GKFv2:

It is not mutually exclusive but Orlando and Los Angeles are not world beaters on defense. The Lakers low post defense is terrible and soft. But they have Kobe so it works out in the end. Orlando has Howard. It's more than just defense to win a title. Of course teams can't win a title by playing Isiah/Knicks-era defense. You have to play defense in order to get to where these teams are but you can make up for some defensive mishaps if you have some outstanding offensive players. Both teams have that.

Therefore you don't have to have some lockdown Van Gundy/Riley defense that holfresh proposes. He forgets D'Antoni's teams almost went to the Finals and they ranked in the top 5 or top 10 in those Hollinger stats on defense. They also lose Nash (and Amare I think?) to suspension because of Horry and lost the series to the Spurs and never got close again. D'Antoni's system got them 55 wins a year and inches away from going to the NBA Finals. He is a damn good coach.

I have no idea why you are bringing the MDA teams into the arguement. My claim is that LA and ORL are good defensive teams.
Posted by GKFv2:

The Lakers and Magic are both in the Finals and it isn't for their defensive prowess.


Throughout the season, on a per 100 possession basis, those 2 teams were 2 of the 4 best in the league at denying points being scored against them.

How can you argue that they are not good defensive teams?
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Nalod
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6/3/2009  8:51 AM

Nobody wins without great players.

Coaches that can elevate good players to greatness is a talent. PHil Jax Took Jordan, a very very good player and showed him the way to greatness. Give him credit. Pippin was a very very good player also. THe rest of his bulls teams were usually role players. Six titles is nothing to sneeze at. Neither are the lakers who were Kobe/Shaq with role players around them.

The knicks have a long way to go but I thought MDA did a great job with his roster turned over, going with the Utes, and really no blow outs! The team played hard and stayed in most games!

They were enjoyable and competitive!

That is tangable.
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6/3/2009  9:46 AM
Your not winning any rings without a very very good pg or center (prefable both)it hasn't been done ever,or as far back as I could remember. Mike d had a chance if not for amare,s suspension. Pat riley and JVG came close with us just like all runner ups do.They fall short because there missing 1 of the 2.You could talk X n Os during the regular season,but the playoffs are strickly match ups and it starts with a very good pg and ends with dominate big man.
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martin
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6/3/2009  10:00 AM
Posted by knicks1248:

Your not winning any rings without a very very good pg or center (prefable both)it hasn't been done ever,or as far back as I could remember. Mike d had a chance if not for amare,s suspension. Pat riley and JVG came close with us just like all runner ups do.They fall short because there missing 1 of the 2.You could talk X n Os during the regular season,but the playoffs are strickly match ups and it starts with a very good pg and ends with dominate big man.

Jordan had serviceable centers and PGs and he won plenty.
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DrAlphaeus
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6/3/2009  10:09 AM
Posted by knicks1248:

Your not winning any rings without a very very good pg or center (prefable both)it hasn't been done ever,or as far back as I could remember. Mike d had a chance if not for amare,s suspension. Pat riley and JVG came close with us just like all runner ups do.They fall short because there missing 1 of the 2.You could talk X n Os during the regular season,but the playoffs are strickly match ups and it starts with a very good pg and ends with dominate big man.

The Bulls did it with from the 2 & 3 (MJ, Pip, Kukoc), not the 1 & 5. The Bulls' 4s (Grant, Rodman) were probably more instrumental than their 5s or 1s in those rings, all due props to Cartwright & BJ. Probably better way to put it that you need both an inside & outside game. MJ went into the paint & the line a heap.

Speaking of Kukoc, and seeing what Orlando has done really opens my eyes to the possibilities with the current Knicks. A bunch of tall, multi-position shooters spreading the floor. The promise of a servicable Eddy Curry in my mind speaks to keeping a David Lee for boards if those two can work out their spacing in the paint. After coming up on the 90s Knicks, who would have thought the Knicks would get all Euro, but as the league goes, so must we go. I hope D'Antoni can keep this train on track.
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6/3/2009  11:22 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by knicks1248:

Your not winning any rings without a very very good pg or center (prefable both)it hasn't been done ever,or as far back as I could remember. Mike d had a chance if not for amare,s suspension. Pat riley and JVG came close with us just like all runner ups do.They fall short because there missing 1 of the 2.You could talk X n Os during the regular season,but the playoffs are strickly match ups and it starts with a very good pg and ends with dominate big man.

Jordan had serviceable centers and PGs and he won plenty.

true & good point - jordan had another top 50 player of all time in pippen at the guard spot to help. i would say this is not the norm though.
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6/3/2009  11:23 AM
Let's be honest.. Pippen being on the Top 50 player all-time team was a bit of a "in the moment" type of thing. I'm not trying to say Pippen wasn't a good player, but Top50 All-Time? No way.
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martin
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6/3/2009  11:25 AM
Posted by jimimou:
Posted by martin:
Posted by knicks1248:

Your not winning any rings without a very very good pg or center (prefable both)it hasn't been done ever,or as far back as I could remember. Mike d had a chance if not for amare,s suspension. Pat riley and JVG came close with us just like all runner ups do.They fall short because there missing 1 of the 2.You could talk X n Os during the regular season,but the playoffs are strickly match ups and it starts with a very good pg and ends with dominate big man.

Jordan had serviceable centers and PGs and he won plenty.

true & good point - jordan had another top 50 player of all time in pippen at the guard spot to help. i would say this is not the norm though.

Pippen did do a lot of ball-handling but played it at the SF position.

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jimimou
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6/3/2009  11:26 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:

Let's be honest.. Pippen being on the Top 50 player all-time team was a bit of a "in the moment" type of thing. I'm not trying to say Pippen wasn't a good player, but Top50 All-Time? No way.

i can buy this argument.....he was a knicks killer though and highly instrumental in all the championship runs w mj on th eteam. he was exposed as not being 'spotlight worthy', imho, after mj retired....
djsunyc
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6/3/2009  11:27 AM
pippen in the nba today would be a top3 player.

he carried them to 50+ wins in 94 and almost beat the knicks...
jimimou
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6/3/2009  11:32 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

pippen in the nba today would be a top3 player.

he carried them to 50+ wins in 94 and almost beat the knicks...

you could be top 3 in the league today w the type of quality product thats on the floor. nba players today are not what they were 10-20+ yrs ago.
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