Posted by Pharzeone:

Yeah, I would like to see a season where Duncan carries his team without any help to really guage him but it never happened. Maybe 03 but Parker, Manu and Jackson made big strides in their career that year. I don't think there has been a season where you can say that Duncan had no help or his team really sucks so bad and how he had to overcome that. KG, Ewing, Barkley, etc. had those problems. When given an equally good team in 03-04, Garnett was the better player and his team had more success than Duncan that year. Go back to last season and you can say the same thing when Garnett was traded to the Celtics.

phar I am a fan of your posting but alot of this post is slanted.

Manu was a rookie in 02-03 and Parker was in his 2nd year. DRob was in his 14th and last year. Duncan avg'd 24 a game Parker 16 Jax 12 and Malik freaking Rose was the 4th leading scorer on that championship squad with 10 a game. Everyone else was passable to suck that year. If thats not carrying a squad I don't know what is.

As for the 03-04 comparison

the big 3 of all in there prime

KG Sam and Spree

vs

Duncan Parker(3rd year) and a Manu (2nd year)/Hedo split

is nowhere near evenly yolked.

Parker and Manu didn't hit their prime until the 04-05 season.

Posted by DrAlphaeus:

Posted by Marv:

all-time fab five?!?!?!?!? i break out more cheetos for this topic than the alba thread!!
I’m totally with you on timmy d. he is every bit as great and holds up ALMOST as well historically as what you claim.
With one exception.
And you gotta be an old fart to feel this – but the one exception is bob petit, the all-time greatest pf in the history of the nba.

Nice, I was hoping someone would rep the old-school. Pettit is one of those names I know but whose game I definitely need to know more about. He is probably the father of the modern power forward from what I've read. But 6'9" 215 lbs? Tim's skill level at his size -- 6'11" -- is part of what makes him rises above Pettit, Charles & Malone.

Posted by sebstar:

Posted by Marv:

Posted by sebstar:

Posted by purple012870:

How quickly does LBJ eclipse Bird at SF?

You're right, he already has. Just create an image in your head of Bird trying to check Lebron.

bird dealt with a lot of monster forwards, form erving to worthy to wilkins to king to dantley to aguirre to barkley, etc., etc. i love lebron. but lebron's not bird. bird's the better player. we'll see where lebron gets later in his career.

No way dude, Lebron is Magic Johnson if Magic were built like a body builder and was a super athlete. Nobody from that era would be able to handle him now. Worthy, Barkley, Aguirre, and Dr. J aren't comparable. Only one was Wilkins who was a ridiculous athlete, but not the overall talent that Lebron is.

Lebron is 23 and already on another level, so yeah as currently constituted I would put LBJ ahead of Bird, easily, in a pure talent vacuum. Now if we are talking about accomplishments and breadth of career then Bird still gets it for now, obviously.

seb, imo lebron's creating his own niche, and it's great to see it evolving. but magic johnson? i don't think so. magic was the equal of stockton, nash, whomever as a pure point, plus had the capability of going for 30-40 if he wanted to, plus was an indomitable winner, a la mj. i don't think lebron will replicate that particular combo. and i think you are seriously downplaying the small forwards of the 70's/80's. i only mentioned a handful top of mind, but the talent level was ridiculous. and if you're comparing based on lebron's body type now, i think it's reasonable to consider that any of those guys could have easily carried another 20 of muscle if they were playing today.

now bird? better shooter than lebron. better passer than lebron. better rebounder than lebron. probably equals as ball-handlers. lebron better defensively, though bird's underrated there. lebron the more dominating physical player. bird had the ultimate killer instinct and confidence that lebron is developing, and it's a joy to watch. i am rooting HARD for him to further his legacy in this orlando series.

but you've added that we should judge them from lebron's later body of work, which i think is right. plus, bird played with just a ridiculous cast of teammates, including tiny, mchale, parish, dj, maxwell, walton. lebron's played with . . . . . boobie!

Posted by Marv:

Posted by sebstar:

Posted by Marv:

Posted by sebstar:

Posted by purple012870:

How quickly does LBJ eclipse Bird at SF?

You're right, he already has. Just create an image in your head of Bird trying to check Lebron.

bird dealt with a lot of monster forwards, form erving to worthy to wilkins to king to dantley to aguirre to barkley, etc., etc. i love lebron. but lebron's not bird. bird's the better player. we'll see where lebron gets later in his career.

No way dude, Lebron is Magic Johnson if Magic were built like a body builder and was a super athlete. Nobody from that era would be able to handle him now. Worthy, Barkley, Aguirre, and Dr. J aren't comparable. Only one was Wilkins who was a ridiculous athlete, but not the overall talent that Lebron is.

Lebron is 23 and already on another level, so yeah as currently constituted I would put LBJ ahead of Bird, easily, in a pure talent vacuum. Now if we are talking about accomplishments and breadth of career then Bird still gets it for now, obviously.

seb, imo lebron's creating his own niche, and it's great to see it evolving. but magic johnson? i don't think so. magic was the equal of stockton, nash, whomever as a pure point, plus had the capability of going for 30-40 if he wanted to, plus was an indomitable winner, a la mj. i don't think lebron will replicate that particular combo. and i think you are seriously downplaying the small forwards of the 70's/80's. i only mentioned a handful top of mind, but the talent level was ridiculous. and if you're comparing based on lebron's body type now, i think it's reasonable to consider that any of those guys could have easily carried another 20 of muscle if they were playing today.

now bird? better shooter than lebron. better passer than lebron. better rebounder than lebron. probably equals as ball-handlers. lebron better defensively, though bird's underrated there. lebron the more dominating physical player. bird had the ultimate killer instinct and confidence that lebron is developing, and it's a joy to watch. i am rooting HARD for him to further his legacy in this orlando series.

but you've added that we should judge them from lebron's later body of work, which i think is right. plus, bird played with just a ridiculous cast of teammates, including tiny, mchale, parish, dj, maxwell, walton. lebron's played with . . . . . boobie!

I agree with Marv. Bird was out of this world. He was an assasin. Considering his physical limitations, he had no flaws in the basketball court. He is a very good heady defender. He also went up against a barrage of great small forwards. Add Bernard King to that list.

Posted by martin:

Posted by sebstar:

Smart guy Marv, including the talent Bird played with in comparison with Lebron, 'cause you know I was coming with that. Bird played with two hall of famers to pass to. Lebron has.....Boobie Gibson.

the league is watered down these days... you can say that Bird played with 2 hall of famers but he played AGAINST teams with the same or more.

The last 4 team's in the playoffs this year don't have 2 hall of famers on ANY team.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by martin:

Posted by sebstar:

Smart guy Marv, including the talent Bird played with in comparison with Lebron, 'cause you know I was coming with that. Bird played with two hall of famers to pass to. Lebron has.....Boobie Gibson.

the league is watered down these days... you can say that Bird played with 2 hall of famers but he played AGAINST teams with the same or more.

The last 4 team's in the playoffs this year don't have 2 hall of famers on ANY team.

DEN has 2, there's Chauncey & Melo (u gotta assume he'll be in someday)... Lakers might someday if Pau has another 5-6 years like the ones he's put up since he got into the NBA & Kobe's already a lock.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by martin:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by martin:

Posted by sebstar:

Smart guy Marv, including the talent Bird played with in comparison with Lebron, 'cause you know I was coming with that. Bird played with two hall of famers to pass to. Lebron has.....Boobie Gibson.

the league is watered down these days... you can say that Bird played with 2 hall of famers but he played AGAINST teams with the same or more.

The last 4 team's in the playoffs this year don't have 2 hall of famers on ANY team.

DEN has 2, there's Chauncey & Melo (u gotta assume he'll be in someday)... Lakers might someday if Pau has another 5-6 years like the ones he's put up since he got into the NBA & Kobe's already a lock.

Chauncey & Melo and Gasol aint anywhere near the talent that the Lakers and Boston had back in the day.

now you're changing your statement... i never said they had Magic & Kareem now did i?