Anybody watch international basketball? I'm not interested in stereotypes, but someone who might really know: did the rule changes make the NBA play more like a European league?

I'm blaming Isiah since he's ruined everything else.

Posted by OffDaMeterzzzz:

They really do need to put an age limit. I say age 21, or 4 years post high school. That way player's are given the appropriate instruction and time to participate in a professional league. The NFL has a minimum 3 year post high school limit I believe. I know the NBA is not the NFL, but there are very few Lebron's and Kobe's compared to the ridiculous amount of unprepared athletes who have ruined the NBA. Even Kobe and KG struggled mightily their rookie years largely due to their youth and lack of preparation.

There are no more legends in today's game in contrast to the abundance of legends in the past.

You really think 4 years of post high school would have helped Chris Bosh, Allen Iverson, Shawn Kemp, or Even Chris Webber? I don't think so. Players learn from experience. The faster they get in the NBA the quicker they will be to get adjusted to the game. You mentioned that Kobe and KG struggled their first year, however was that do to them coming straight out of high school or was it do to them not being immediate starters? Most players get from the new skills in the offseason and getting playing time. During the season is when they apply what they have learned during the summer and test out their new skills.

KG and Kobe were not immediate starters that's why the process was slow their first year. The Lakers knew that Eddie Jones who was starting over Kobe was not better than Kobe and that's why he was given the boot. The following year you saw Kevin Garnett and Kobe's number jump up. This is the main reason why you see rookies that start their first year play good compared to a player that has to be worked into the system.

Look at the previous stars in the NBA:


Ewing, Jordan, Barkely, Isiah, Malone, Stockton, Bird, Magic, Olajuwon, Drexler, Pippen, Kemp, Payton, Shaq, David Robinson, Miller, Dominique, KJ, Mourning, Worthy, Jabbar, Parish, Mchale, Mutombo, Dumars, Aguire and probably much more that dont come to mind right now.

Today's stars:

Kobe, Lebron, Wade and Duncan- that's it. Noone else to me is that impressive. Stoudemire, Howard and Nowitzki are good player's but not special in my eyes. They don't have any moves or leadership qualities.

You mentioned great players and you included Shawn Kemp. Shawn Kemp did not go to college. He was straight out of HS.

You have no proof that college will make these player better. This is a fantasy that these college coaches are sitting down with these player working on their game all day. In the NBA players have more coaches, equipment, and video to help team succeed. Jared Jeffries went to college. As a matter of fact he went to one of the top colleges at that time. Did college help him get his shot together?

You also mentioned the great players of the past but yet you forgot that everyone of those great players played with another good player. Many of the stars today do not get a chance to play with other good stars. You mentioned (Isiah, Dumars, Aguire), (Malone and Stockton), (Bird, Mchale, Parrish), (Kevin Johnson and Barkley),( Jordan and Pippen),) Kemp and Gary Payton), ), (Magic Worthy, Kareem,) all of these players had a chance to play with other superstars. Only Dominique did not play with great players.

Many of the players today do not have that opportunity to play with other good players. The problem with the league is too many teams. Back in the days you had less teams so there would be more talent to spread around. Look at the Celtics, people considered them one of the best teams to play and look how long it took for them to get good. If there were less teams you would not have to worry about a Kevin Garnett waiting years to join a good team like the Celtics because he probably would have gotten drafted by a team that already had star players. The same thing with Paul Gasol and Chris Bosh and many others.

Expansion of teams is what is pulling the league down not players coming out of college quick or not going to college.

The NBA wants to make money off expanding teams. Then they say there is no talent. The NBA and NCAA are sleeping in bed together. Remember it was not to long ago that people said they did not watch college basketball. Now there is a rule to force players to stay in college so fans are see talent on tv and the ratings are back up.

They don't have any moves or leadership qualities

Really? What go to move did David Robinson have compared to a one year player like Bosh or J O'Neal? David Robinson only had two moves as well as Malone. David pattern move was his jumpshot at the foul line. His next move was dribbling to his left and scoring a bucket. Karl Malone did the pick and roll with another Hall of Famer in John Stockton. Do you think David Robinson was a leader right away? His is the same David Robinson that was scared to play against Hakeem. He did not even want to guard him. He wanted Dennis Rodman to do it. Real leadership there. He developed into a leader towards the end of his career and that comes with experience in the league. Not going to college or hanging out in the D-League for 4 years.

I agree the game has completely gone soft and the officiating and rules has completely destroyed and taken over the game. It's all the same crap.

The only thing that I think that needs to go is the zone defense. Learn how to play defense. Keep out this real illegal defense. If you watch tapes of Michael Jordan's first interveiw of why he is so successful in the NBA he said, "There is no zone in the NBA."

People complain that the league is soft but then when someone hits a player they are ready to cry. Look at people's reaction when David Lee got hit by Amare or when Tractor hit Gallinari. Do you really want to see hard fouls?

Player's now just trade baskets, have no post game, no mid range game, play no defense, no go to moves, no arsenal and reportoire of moves, no hook shot. It's all about looking cool, dunking and spotting up for 3's. When the 3 point line came out in 1979, players avoided it like a disease.

Are you really watching the players today or just the Knicks? Also you are talking about jacking up shots but you mentioned Jordan and Dominique as great players do you see the contradiction. That's all the did earlier in their careers. Remember Jordan did not really develop until around 28 and 29 years of age. If Jordan had never had a coach like Phil Jackson he probably would have been just like Allen Iverson because Doug Collins favorite play was,"Give the dam ball to Jordan and get the hell out the way."


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What happened to working hard to keep your man in front of you? What happened to help/team defense, full court pressure, press, good man to man defense?

Full court press does not work in the NBA because players are too talented. You have point guards and small forward that will break the press with easy. Even with a bad team like the Knicks there were few teams that tried to put pressure on the Knicks like the Hornets and it did not work. Again the Knicks do not reflect the rest of the league.

Why can't teams (especially the Knicks) play defense when you have college teams that play their hearts out on D and don't even get paid for it.

I think that is your problem right there. You are looking at the league base on the Knicks. If the Knicks were winning like they did in 1999 would you really be complaining? I have friends that are diehard Celtics fans and they complained about how the league sucks. As soon as the Celtics won a title they are are telling me that this Celtics team that just won is just as good as the old Celtics team.


Defense has always been bad for bad teams whether you are talking about 2009 or 1990. Do you really think the bad Clippers team of the past are any different from the Clippers today?

Again less teams and you see better productivity on the court. Teams played bad back in the days. The difference is no internet and Espn showing it 24 hours a day.

Why not wait and see how these new players finish their careers before you start blasting them. Remember the players of the past you got a chance to evaluate their whole NBA career. Compared that to a player that has not even reached their peak.





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[Edited by - BigC on 04-17-2009 11:47 AM]

[Edited by - BigC on 04-17-2009 7:54 PM]

I think it is more honest for a pro ballplayer to enter the pros -- NBA, D-League or foreign leagues -- if college is just going to be a charade for them. Internationally, basketball players often are pros by 16-17-18, let alone baseball players here and soccer players internationally. I wish a lot of kids that will likely end up role players or journeymen would come into the league a bit more developed, whether that happens via NCAA or D-League.

Posted by orangeblobman:

Yea, I agree Dr Alphaeus. Also, looking at it from an educational standpoint, these kids go to college as a charade and it lowers the value of everyone else's diploma, too. NCAA sports, the way they are now, have no place in our educational institutions. They cheapen education.

Why not to have Sport colleges?
This was the system in Soviet Union and worked very well.
They can prepare trainers, sport teachers for schools, assistants, etc.
Oh well, I forget that this young athlets used like slaves to get millions for college mafia. Never mind...

Posted by orangeblobman:

Sports colleges are a great idea! Sports on regular campuses should be limited to recreational players, as a hobby, second to their studies.

Seriously it was great system which made Russia a sport superpower in almost all sports. So many kids were saved from the streets and criminal influence.
Not all stuff in Soviet Union was bad.
It is still works fine in China.
What we have is a joke. We put ourselves like nation which is honoring honesty, but in fact it is hypocrisy all over the place. And college sport is one of the biggest jokes of all.

Posted by sebstar:

you think raising the age limit is going to turn players in to Jordan and Bird all of a sudden?

The biggest problem is too many teams. League is too watered down.

Exactly what I have been saying.

I also think players should be forced to go through 4 years of college. All the arguments against this is based on basketball skills and what college does to the game. The argument in favor of college is not to improve their game, life has more to it than basketball skills. Players need to go to college to learn how to be adults, Kobe wouldn't be a better player if he came out of college but he would have been an adult. The original poster was arguing that the new players are all sissies because of the mollycoddling they get. That is the single reason for the sorry state the league is in.