Posted by misterearl:

This Is A Mistake Free Zone

SupremeCommander - you know I respect your hoops intellect but... are you talking about the bonehead plays where Wilson Chandler just steps on the out of bounds line "for no good reason" because he is either looking at some hottie in the stands, out of control or totally oblivious to his surroundings...

... or the bonehead plays where he takes too long a drop step back (due to the fact he has exceptional range on his jumper), while squaring up to raise and attempt a three point shot?

Standing at the congressional podium: "I demand a season recount and comprehensive inventory of all "bonehead" plays attributed to each and every Knicks player!"

Please don't get me started on hanging on the rim.

Your truly for better basketball,

- The Mayor's Campaign Manager

Nothin but respect dude.

There were two plays I watched within a week of each other where he was alone on the wing in three point territory and stepped out of bounds because Chandler didn't seem to grasp their is a rectangle, or in bounds, and the painted area outside the rectangle, or out of bounds.

If this seems overly critical, consider my appreciation for Chandler's game. If you think I'd criticize the details of, say, Eddy Curry's game, I'm envious of the friendly prescriptions your Doc is givin you.

Just want to know Chandler's head is in the game

Baby Genius

Do players take the standardized basketball IQ test every year in training camp?

Pharzeone - thank you for providing some relevant context to the critical "stepping out of bounds" issue. I could swear I watched Dwayne Wade take no fewer than four and a half steps on the way to the tin after he picked up his dribble. Nothing. No whistle. Not a peep.

Does that mean Wade is getting a free pass instead of a failing grade?

[Edited by - misterearl on 04-02-2009 10:45 PM]

Posted by Pharzeone:

^This is why fans are respected by players but past and present as well as NBA executives. In that same week, Kobe Bryant stepped out of bounds not once but twice in the same game, as I mentioned on this forum when it occured. I asked so what's Kobe's BB IQ, not a single response to my post. Then to top it off, Paul Pierce stepped out of bounds against the Knicks in the 4th quarter in Boston. Once again I pointed out does Paul Pierce have a low BB IQ. Just want to know if some fans' heads are in the game. Is a travel a sign of low BB IQ, every player knows that they have to dribble the ball before they move their pivot foot, yet traveling is call. It is really curious about how some fans think and what are behind their thoughts.

I don't think I said he had low basketball IQ. I think I said I wanted him to keep his head in the game. Which means I want to see him not commit unforced turnovers. What I'm talking about is Wilson hanging out in the deep corner and backing out of bounds with no one on him at all, which happened and was without question one of the worst plays I've seen from a Knick this year. Frankly, I don't care about Kobe or Pierce and how their superstardom gets them calls and no-calls. Stinks we didn't get a call, but that happens. What I do care about is Wilson improving focus, which I think will/should happen, and as I said before, his progress in limiting the terrible play is something I'll pay attention to next year

Geez, you'd think I crucified the guy given these responses. I sing the dudes praises, but levy one legitimate criticism...

How bout this, tell me why I shouldn't be concerned by a perceived lack of concentration from Wilson Chandler? I mean, I'm not the only one on this board with that impression

Posted by SupremeCommander:



I don't think I said he had low basketball IQ. I think I said I wanted him to keep his head in the game. Which means I want to see him not commit unforced turnovers. What I'm talking about is Wilson hanging out in the deep corner and backing out of bounds with no one on him at all, which happened and was without question one of the worst plays I've seen from a Knick this year. Frankly, I don't care about Kobe or Pierce and how their superstardom gets them calls and no-calls. Stinks we didn't get a call, but that happens. What I do care about is Wilson improving focus, which I think will/should happen, and as I said before, his progress in limiting the terrible play is something I'll pay attention to next year

Geez, you'd think I crucified the guy given these responses. I sing the dudes praises, but levy one legitimate criticism...

How bout this, tell me why I shouldn't be concerned by a perceived lack of concentration from Wilson Chandler? I mean, I'm not the only one on this board with that impression

Now, that's where I am trying to figure out. You mentioned incidents that you PERCEIVED where because his "head wasn't in the game", I gave you examples where all-star players who have acclodes thrust upon them are guilty of the same infractions and you dismiss them. Also, you indicated that we didn't get the call which is off-topic because if you read what I said those players were called for such infractions. Get your head into this discussion. You didn't justify your assumptions clearly. This may come as a shock to you but every player will commit a turnover in their career if they play long enough. They're human not robots.

Why I say your point doesn't carry weight is that among the Knicks that average more than 30 minutes, Chandler has the lowest turnover rate only to Hughes who played far less games than Chandler and until his injury was pacing hard to pass him. So basically upon starters and Nate, he has the lowest turnovers per game. Which is very interesting since he leads all Knicks in games played this season. I can't take credit for this nugget, D'Antoni actually commented about his low turnovers this season last month. So is Lee's head into the game? Duhon? I guess we can both argue that Harrington's head isn't to the game since he leads the Knicks in turnovers and silly plays.

When you compare his turnovers to the rest of the league among qualified starters he is in the middle of the pack towards low turnover numbers. Lebron nearly averages 3 turnovers per game but the ball is in hands a lot more. Yet his assist/turnover rate is only 1.5 more than Chandler's. Which means why everyone celebrates Lebron for being a great passer, he still turnovers the ball a lot. Are we going to say that Lebron's head is not in the game or he just commits a lot of turnovers, silly or otherwise. That's the problem with perception, it's not really perception if it is really an assumption.

BTW, for all you Gallinari is such a "court vision" guy and high BB IQ. You would be interested to know that while Gallinari didn't turnover the ball much when played, only .54. He still average more turnovers than assists per game (.5). Leaving him with a -.04 assist/turnover ratio. I can understand his scoring being low but for the hype surrounding his court vision and high BB IQ and the ability to set up his teammates, that stat is ridiculous. I don't care if he played one minute per game or just one game. I know some people hate stats but sometimes they pierce this so called "perception"

Earl and Pharzeone quit being passive aggressive and just tell these people what you are driving at.

bippity -"passive aggressive"?

Why the need to label?



[Edited by - misterearl on 04-03-2009 09:38 AM]

Personally the conversation about Chandler "having low basketball IQ" is an entirely appropriate conversation and a great window into the subtle world of how language determines perception and expectations.

If the conversation is so ridiculous that to you that it's "not worth having", why do you participate?

If you are indeed going to stick around for a dialogue bippity, please provide your opinion, why would the descriptions and projections for two new players, at nearly similar stages of their careers, be different?

bippity - if we consider ourselves intelligent basketball fans. (or at least borderline crazy) what can be done to elevate the level of dialogue on the topic of players beyond labelling and random player expectations?

Expectations. As Wilson Chandlers Campaign Manager I would offer that running for Mayor was always a longshot. No one gave us a chance. But here we are, in the starting lineup.

I would submit that some of the criticism of players who seem to fit a certain profile is inevitable. I am also not interested in rehashing the rehashed. I would like to hear informed analysis, such as the information provided by Pharzeone, that challenges the norm.

As we look forward to the draft, and the development of the young Knicks who stick around, I want to look at individuals with an open mind and the ability to watch the subtle growth spurts and stops without feeling the need to throw them in any trash heap of the past.

Most of all, I wish both Gallinari AND Chandler good health because I think both of them bring something to feel good about. That thing that makes us willing to come back for more, watch the games and post on a damn near daily basis. They both have the thing that makes us come back for more despite Eddy not being all that interested, enough player turnover to make D-League players look attractive, Jared being overmatched on a nightly basis and Al Harrington hanging on the rim... twice.

Hope.

I've lived this situation before so it isn't subtle to me. I played in a basketball league with half poor city teams and half rich suburbian teams. In the 80's and 90's it was basically the blacks against the whites. The papers would write about how we won with our athleticism and speed. When a suburban school beat a city school the conversation was about how they used their all out hustle and smarts to beat an athletically "gifted" or "blessed" team. When we outrebounded one of these teams 4 to 1 the conversation was never about how we simply just outworked them on the boards. It was about our athletic ability. When I went by my guy 80 times in a row the conversation was about my inherited athletic gift. It was never about the fact that while this guy was visiting the lake house in Maine, my teammates and I were playing 5 hours of basketball for the 1000th day in a row.

I've lived that perception and I believe it's there. Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant and even Nate Robinson have worked harder on their games and their bodies than David Lee ever will, and yet David Lee is considered to be the tireless worker. I understand this concept and do not feel it needs to be veiled. It's true and exists. I still don't lose sleep when someone calls Nate or Wilson low IQ players, which I don't think is the case. I may challenge and ask this person to tell me why they think this way, but won't lose sleep over it.