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Where's the Progress?
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djsunyc
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3/26/2009  10:27 AM
i think mike will be a good hire in 2010. but this year, imho, there's nothing he's done that stands out. i think any other coach with walsh's backing would've done at least the same thing with this team.
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DrAlphaeus
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3/26/2009  10:30 AM
D'Antoni is "good vibes" coach, which others have eluded to in this thread. His system works if the vibe is positive and loose and fun-loving. Once he gets that going, it's contagious and it reflects on the court. Other folks like a Larry Brown don't need chuckles and sunshine, and probably actually are fueled by the opposite.

Case in point: D'Antoni isolates Marbury because he wasn't getting a good vibe from him. There is other explanation for why he didn't put his only all-star into the game. I think the Sulkmaster was too big an obstacle to coach around. So D'Antoni gets support from the rest of the locker room and organization by isolating Marbury, and it paid off in the first half of the season. The Knicks played better than they should have, and it was exciting basketball.

Now, it is painfully apparent that the talent isn't there to sustain that energy into a tight playoff hunt. And I really don't know if Mike pays anything more than lip service to the idea of defense. But I think things are heading in a much better direction for the club than before, if only because we don't have Jerome James on the bench!
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JohnWallace44
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3/26/2009  10:41 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

i think mike will be a good hire in 2010. but this year, imho, there's nothing he's done that stands out. i think any other coach with walsh's backing would've done at least the same thing with this team.

That is utterly ridiculous.

Imagine Isiah in charge of this team when all of the LeBron stuff was exploding in the press. The team would have completely quit and never showed up the rest of the year.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
djsunyc
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3/26/2009  10:44 AM
Posted by JohnWallace44:
Posted by djsunyc:

i think mike will be a good hire in 2010. but this year, imho, there's nothing he's done that stands out. i think any other coach with walsh's backing would've done at least the same thing with this team.

That is utterly ridiculous.

Imagine Isiah in charge of this team when all of the LeBron stuff was exploding in the press. The team would have completely quit and never showed up the rest of the year.

of course not isiah. but you're telling me if they brought in mark jackson (or anybody else) and walsh eliminated marbury, zach, and craw, that he would've done a terrible job?
Nalod
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3/26/2009  10:54 AM
Posted by fishmike:

gone Marbury - check
gone Zach - check
gone Crawford - check
gone Isiah - check

looks like a lot of progress to me


Isles looking for every miserable aspect and write about it: Check
JohnWallace44
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3/26/2009  10:55 AM
Walsh might as well be in the locker room with a loudspeaker every day screaming, "you guys don't matter! Only LeBron matters!"

They mail it in every few nights.

Shocker.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Pharzeone
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3/26/2009  11:00 AM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Walsh might as well be in the locker room with a loudspeaker every day screaming, "you guys don't matter! Only LeBron matters!"

They mail it in every few nights.

Shocker.

A coach job is to get past all that though. He motivated them for spurts and then nada. I also think his in-game management needs a lot of work. He needs a better group of assistants around him. I like his brother and Mike seems to know what the hell he is doing. Herb is the guy that should be replaced with a defensive specialist.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
nixluva
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3/26/2009  11:04 AM
We don't have a center! We barely have a PG! In fact we have no post game whatsoever with Lee, Wilcox or Jared! We don't have any shotblocking and few natural defenders. What coach could fully overcome all of that? Larry Brown wouldve lost his mind trying to get some defense out of this group!

Once Gallo got hurt it further hurt our chances. We were 14-14 with a hurt Gallo. I think a healthy Gallo a year wouldve helped and not having all the trades wouldve allowed more stability and development. MDA is a top tier coach and you don't judge that by what they do with broken teams but how they handle real talent and stars cuz no coach wins without the star talent.
islesfan
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3/26/2009  11:16 AM
Posted by nixluva:

We don't have a center! We barely have a PG! In fact we have no post game whatsoever with Lee, Wilcox or Jared! We don't have any shotblocking and few natural defenders. What coach could fully overcome all of that? Larry Brown wouldve lost his mind trying to get some defense out of this group!

Once Gallo got hurt it further hurt our chances. We were 14-14 with a hurt Gallo. I think a healthy Gallo a year wouldve helped and not having all the trades wouldve allowed more stability and development. MDA is a top tier coach and you don't judge that by what they do with broken teams but how they handle real talent and stars cuz no coach wins without the star talent.

D'Antoni doesn't like centers and the team passed on a pretty good one in Lopez. What happened to all that talk about Duhon and how he could even be the starting PG in 2010 and beyond? Post game? Since when does D'Antoni have any use for a post game? Why do you have to be a natural defender to play even basic defense? Larry Brown has improved the Bobcats defensively year.

Gallinari wasn't, and still isn't, a known positive quantity that you can automatically assume they would have been better with and certainly not to the degree that you're assuming.

BS, a top tier coach would have this team looking respectable and playing with effort This team is unwatchable, disjointed and playing as if they've never been coached.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Allanfan20
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3/26/2009  11:26 AM
This is what you see with players with habits. It's extremely extremely hard to get rid of habits. You can put them aside for a few days, weeks, months or even a couple of years, but to keep them out of your life, is very difficult. Now you see the habits creeping back in. The laziness on defense, one on one play, ect...

This isn't Mikes fault. He's to blame for certain things this season, absolutely. However, we weren't expecting this to be an important season for the team in the first place. We all knew it was the start of rebuilding especially since we got rid of Zach and Jamal for Al Harrington and Larry Hughes expiring (Essentially.)

This is why you go after players who are commited on both ends. Maybe they aren't great on one end but they are commited. We have nobody expect MAYBE Wilson and Gallo who are commited on either end, and we have no clue if those guys are keepers at this point, especially Gallo.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Vmart
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3/26/2009  11:47 AM
Posted by Pharzeone:

MDA is not a stellar coach. I didn't think so before he arrived and this season only proves it for me. He isn't on the Pat Riley level of coaching. I don't even think he is on Brown's level and that guy didn't even try when he was here. I think D'Antoni needs everything perfect in order for him to succeed. This season reminds me of his first season in PHX after Marbury was traded. Amare was injured so he didn't really have a superstar besides Marion. But he had the same issue when he took over the Nuggets. I think this guy needs a lot of superstars just to compete. That's just my feeling. I think this guy really needs Steve Nash in here.


Get MDA Pat Ewing, Magic, Jabbar, Worthy, Shaq and Wade in their prime then call out MDA. This Knicks team is full of crap and you know it. They have two promising young players and a few marginal player.

MDA did well in Phoenix was close to the finals every year what more do you want. It ain't his fault this team is full of crap no team is successful without a star player and no coach is great without one. Just look a Pat Riley every time the going gets tough he leaves to save face. He has had a miserable season with the heat, everyone forgets that why did he have such a bad season because he didn't have anything to work with. Every coach needs something to work with and we know that most of these Knicks aren't worthy of working with because its like teaching an old dogs new tricks.

They will make some moves this off season to get better and get better talent, I don't doubt it.
JohnWallace44
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3/26/2009  11:51 AM
I really love Knicks fans and the way they love to hate coaches.

Wilkins, Brown, MikeD - "kick em out, they suck, worst ever"

It might be the players. Juuuuuust maybe.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Vmart
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3/26/2009  12:00 PM
Its tough to have progress when the talent level isn't there. Young players need time to develop and old vets who aren't winners in their prime basically are just getting older. To continually blame coaching is down right idiotic, there are instances when the coaching is bad but it can't always be the coach sometimes its the players.
martin
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3/26/2009  12:14 PM
Posted by Vmart:

Its tough to have progress when the talent level isn't there. Young players need time to develop and old vets who aren't winners in their prime basically are just getting older. To continually blame coaching is down right idiotic, there are instances when the coaching is bad but it can't always be the coach sometimes its the players.

agreed. Even tougher on the coach when half the roster has changed during the season.
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Pharzeone
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3/26/2009  12:24 PM
Posted by Vmart:

Its tough to have progress when the talent level isn't there. Young players need time to develop and old vets who aren't winners in their prime basically are just getting older. To continually blame coaching is down right idiotic, there are instances when the coaching is bad but it can't always be the coach sometimes its the players.

Agreed. But in the same token, don't great players make average coaches look better. If we are judging D'Antoni on his PHX days then in the same breath say that Nash, Amare and Marion are very good to great players, then where does that leave D'Antoni's impact? Take his limited time in Denver and now this year in NY. Where do you rate him as a coach? It can't be just as simple as saying well he needs Lebron/Wade/Bosh or whoever to compete and by the way, he is a great coach. Is Mike Brown a great coach? In his limited number of years he got his team to two conference finals and a NBA final. Just curious how you guys rate a coach?
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
islesfan
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3/26/2009  12:36 PM
What standard are people using to judge the progress, or lack thereof, of this team? It certainly can't be the won-loss record. For me, I want to see effort, I want to see basic defense taught and the byproduct of that to be apparent and demanded on the court and I want to see fundamental offensive principles to be exhibited (i.e. ball and player movement and not one on one play).

I don't think any of that is too much to ask and none of it should be out of reach for any professional basketball player to learn. For God sakes, you see most NCAA players able to do these things. Watch the games tonight and see how focused the players are and how they play defensively. If they can do it, then why is it too much to ask of the Knicks players?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
franco12
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3/26/2009  1:21 PM
Posted by islesfan:

What standard are people using to judge the progress, or lack thereof, of this team? It certainly can't be the won-loss record. For me, I want to see effort, I want to see basic defense taught and the byproduct of that to be apparent and demanded on the court and I want to see fundamental offensive principles to be exhibited (i.e. ball and player movement and not one on one play).

I don't think any of that is too much to ask and none of it should be out of reach for any professional basketball player to learn. For God sakes, you see most NCAA players able to do these things. Watch the games tonight and see how focused the players are and how they play defensively. If they can do it, then why is it too much to ask of the Knicks players?

I measure progress by the # of posts you make calling out the knicks. And that number has decreased off last year so we have progress!
JohnWallace44
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3/26/2009  1:22 PM
These players all know that they're stop gap guys, so beyond the fact that they are limited talent wise, and playing without a center, I'm shocked that they've been as motivated as they have.

The slate needs to be completely wiped.

In 2010 Curry will be in jail, or fat camp, and we'll be able to restart with the Mayor, the Rooster, and Jeffries who is limited, but he's got the right attitude and doesn't really matter to the overall team.

Nate and Lee have to go because we need the Mayor, the Rooster, and these players that we draft this year to know that its their team to lead. Not Al's, not Hughes'. These players that have the right attitude, they need to know that its on them to lead.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Allanfan20
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3/26/2009  1:24 PM
Basic defense taught? Isn't that something that should be taught in high school. Please, no NBA player should have to be taught basic defense (What is that btw as opposed to complicated defense?) and Mike D'Antoni shouldn't have to teach every player how to play defense. These are all vets, besides Gallo and Wilson. If they don't know how to play defense then they probably will either need to learn on their own time or will never learn. NBA coaches don't have the time to teach that, nor effort. How to you get your players to show effort anyway, if all of them have the bad habits of not always showing effort? Send them to the bench and have a nothing bad effort player come in?

That's what Larry Brown did, and he got fired. Now we have ALL low effort players besides Wilson, Gallinari.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Paladin55
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3/26/2009  1:36 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:



Riley had Ewing competing in what is probably described one of the best times in recent memory for the Eastern Conference. BTW, I am not just talking about championships. I am talking about what a coach can do with the roster he has in front of him. Be competitive, improvement and serious threat.

Just with Ewing, Riley was able to put up 50 wins and take his team within Game 7 of upsetting the NBA champions. Riley had no use for Mark Jackson but was able to coach him in system. Jackson with only Pipen but a Bulls team that he coached up to the Knicks to game 7 Semi-Eastern Conference and depending on who you ask actually won the series. All I saying that D'Antoni needs a lot of help and needs conditions to be perfect to have success. He isn't on that level until he learns how to adjust to his players.

He got rid of Jackson after one year. Now why do you think that happened??

That Jackson/Pippen team was a battle tested group with the same core (minus Jordan) +Kukoc, 25, a major Euro Star. You have to be kidding me if you discount this fact. They all knew his system, almost nobody had to learn a new system except Kukoc, who was no 20 year old rookie. He did not have to start over from scratch with that group.

We don't have the players on this team to win on a regular basis at this point. You are smart enough to know this. Maybe a healthy and slim Curry and an uninjured Gallinari would have made a difference, but the guys we are putting out now are going to have to pay for tickets to the games if they want to be at championship game.

Nobody is saying that MDA is a better coach than Riley or Jackson, but if you can't see the difference in the guys we have now and the players Riley and Jackson have won with, you might want to take a closer look and get back to me.
No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
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