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Yeah so When is Wilcox gonna start?
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misterearl
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3/23/2009  11:00 AM
Which guy is easier to push around?

VDesai - are you really missing Lee's average rebound numbers so much?

Forget the numbers for a moment. I'm no math major.

franco12 makes an excellent point. "And while Wilcox might not grab as many boards as Lee, I think he would actually prevent some offensive boards that Lee allows since bigger/stronger players push him out of the way, and likewise, Wilcox defense would probably help prevent points."

Get Wilcox to focus on his recognition and ball movement skills in the off season. Hell, let him play Summer League in Vegas. I'm certain there are worse places he could be.

"We're a 30 win team with Lee, and we're a 30 win team with Wilcox."

The Knicks desperately need a 6'11 center

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VDesai
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3/23/2009  11:09 AM
Lee is a lot better than rebounding. I don't know why his finishing ability is constantly underrated and passed of as "easy baskets." There are only a few players in the league that produce at a level 16 ppg on 56% shooting. Its certainly not a dime a dozen quality. And I think people have long underrated his ability to play team O- he moves the ball very well in the flow of the O.

Either a few guys here or blind or I'm on LSD- cause I see Lee doing a lot more on the court than Wilcox is able to do. Wilcox is not a bad player, but Lee is a skilled and extremely productive NBA player and way, way above a replacement level NBA talent, which is way he is being characterized on this and other threads.

Its one of those ludicrous overreactions to another bad year. Sure we have not one with Lee, but what exactly are your expectations of this roster. Lee is not the kind of player that can lift up trash. We PURPOSELY downgraded our roster this year to allow for financial flexibility in the future- and somehow we are blaming Lee and Nate for not raising the level of the rest of these guys to make the playoffs? Lets get real here- these guys developed quite nicely and are high level NBA players. Whether we are ever going to be able to build on them is greatly, and rightly in question. These guys will not develop into superstars and never were supposed to be superstars. They've already exceeded what was expected of their draft position and what was expected of them given their physical limitations. But they are good players and would not be recieving some of the unwarranted criticisms they have recieved on a more talented roster.
misterearl
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3/23/2009  11:52 AM
VDesai - I feel you but allow me to separate the issues on the table in this thread, from those that have been badmittoned about since the moment David Lee was drafted at 30.

This issue is not whether David Lee is a consistently productive NBA basketball player. He is and we love him for it. You see Lee doing a lot more on the court than Wilcox is able to do, I can respect that, but respectfully submit a modest "HOLD UP" to the "lot more" part. Averaging two more rebounds, for me, is not "a lot more".

Lee contributes on both ends. So does Wilcox. I would also offer that the contributions that comprise a TEAM must compliment the whole. Lee is not a gifted offensive rebounder. He gets lost on defense and cannot contest shots inside. That is a stone cold fact. Wilcox also has his flaws, he has no jumper to speak of and can play out of kilter - but I would offer that system stability and consistent minutes would correct some of that.

The Knicks need to rebould their interior presence on both ends. On offense we need a strong finisher who does NOT get his shot blocked with regularity as Lee does. Now, I will grant that he has been playing injured so his lift and quickness is affected, but I want power in my power forward.

Lee is a nice sixth man and a championship team.

So is Wilcox.

Neither will make the All Star team on the first ballot.

I am suggesting that the skill sets of the two are very similar. I use the measurements of stats, passion, muscle (a power forward 'must have'), court presence and team play. My personal preferences thrown out of the window.

With some subtle variance in dexterity (advantage Lee) and strength (advantage Wilcox - in holding his position) Lee and Wilcox are basically the same guy.

Neither can hit a 25 foot shot if their life depended on it.
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martin
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3/23/2009  11:57 AM
Posted by misterearl:

VDesai - I feel you but allow me to separate the issues on the table in this thread, from those that have been badmittoned about since the moment David Lee was drafted at 30.

This issue is not whether David Lee is a consistently productive NBA basketball player. He is and we love him for it. You see Lee doing a lot more on the court than Wilcox is able to do, I can respect that, but respectfully submit a modest "HOLD UP" to the "lot more" part. Averaging two more rebounds, for me, is not "a lot more".

Lee contributes on both ends. So does Wilcox. I would also offer that the contributions that comprise a TEAM must compliment the whole. Lee is not a gifted offensive rebounder. He gets lost on defense and cannot contest shots inside. That is a stone cold fact. Wilcox also has his flaws, he has no jumper to speak of and can play out of kilter - but I would offer that system stability and consistent minutes would correct some of that.

The Knicks need to rebould their interior presence on both ends. On offense we need a strong finisher who does NOT get his shot blocked with regularity as Lee does. Now, I will grant that he has been playing injured so his lift and quickness is affected, but I want power in my power forward.

Lee is a nice sixth man and a championship team.

So is Wilcox.

Neither will make the All Star team on the first ballot.

I am suggesting that the skill sets of the two are very similar. I use the measurements of stats, passion, muscle (a power forward 'must have'), court presence and team play. My personal preferences thrown out of the window.

With some subtle variance in dexterity (advantage Lee) and strength (advantage Wilcox - in holding his position) Lee and Wilcox are basically the same guy.

Neither can hit a 25 foot shot if their life depended on it.

i agree with some of this and disagree with about the same. Let me add: GMs around the league have been hungering for DLee to be in their rotation and we just set the very low barometer for Wilcox's trade value (an expiring no less) at Malik Rose.
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misterearl
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3/23/2009  12:19 PM
Cue The Theme Music: The Godfather

Martin - c'mon, unless you have just one NBA General Manager on speed dial, the only evidence of how much any of them covet David Lee is to know what offers are on the table. The amount of "hunger" for David Lee could also be directly proportionate to the number of NY beatwriters who need to fill copy space on a slow day.

How many stories about David Lee on the trade block have been written?

Of course there is interest in David Lee. What's not to like? He's talented AND marketable. He shows up for work and does his job. He battles. He is a walking double-double. But think of it this way....

... If anyone had made Donnie Walsh an offer he could not refuse for David Lee guess what?

He would not have refused it.
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martin
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3/23/2009  12:26 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Cue The Theme Music: The Godfather

Martin - c'mon, unless you have just one NBA General Manager on speed dial, the only evidence of how much any of them covet David Lee is to know what offers are on the table. The amount of "hunger" for David Lee could also be directly proportionate to the number of NY beatwriters who need to fill copy space on a slow day.

How many stories about David Lee on the trade block have been written?

Of course there is interest in David Lee. What's not to like? He's talented AND marketable. He shows up for work and does his job. He battles. He is a walking double-double. But think of it this way....

... If anyone had made Donnie Walsh an offer he could not refuse for David Lee guess what?

He would not have refused it.

no doubt about not refusing to trade DLee, but you also can't just trade one of your only productive big men outside of Harrington.

OKL, with a dearth of muscle in the middle, couldn't refuse Malik Rose.
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nychamp
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3/23/2009  2:13 PM
Misterearl is thinking in the right direction for sure. Wilcox can be a Plan B stopgap, and a perfectly good one at that, if we need to let Lee walk because he got offered too much money. He is significantly better on the defense (in other words an average defender), potentially can become a bit of an enforcer down low, and once accustomed to the system/teammates will get his share of putbacks, fast-break layups/dunks and other occasional offense to be effective. No he's not as polished or versatile as Lee, but there is one huge hole in Lee's game which coincidentally is something super-important for his position. The team doesn't need Lee's decent but still not star-like offensive game anywhere near as much as it needs a harder-nosed defensive player and overall bigger presence in the paint. Harrington can score way more capably from the 4 spot than Lee anyway, for the time being. And, as alluded to, Wilcox can be had for cheap and for short term. Pretty much dirt cheap actually, I would assume.
GKFv2
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3/23/2009  2:26 PM
Never. D'Antoni likes Avid Lee to give up 35 ppg.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
misterearl
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3/23/2009  2:32 PM
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Walton, Shaq, Bill Laimbeer, Walt Bellamy, Tom Chambers and one of my Personal Al-Time Favorites, Jack Sikma Were All Traded

"but you also can't just trade one of your only productive big men outside of Harrington."

Nonsense. Of course you can trade a productive big man. Even if he is your only one. But it only works when you get equal, (no sidegrades please) or preferably, better perceived value in return.

Martin - I would submit that whatever individual or bundle has been/ being offered for David Lee isn't all that appetizing. What reason is there for Donnie Walsh (or Isiah Thomas who drafted him) to cling to David Lee if a better player and/or draft selection is available?





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djsunyc
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3/23/2009  2:38 PM
Posted by GKFv2:

Never. D'Antoni likes Avid Lee to give up 35 ppg.

going by your construct, shouldn't it be "avi lee"?
GKFv2
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3/23/2009  2:44 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by GKFv2:

Never. D'Antoni likes Avid Lee to give up 35 ppg.

going by your construct, shouldn't it be "avi lee"?

True. Avi Lee and his ouble oubles.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
Marv
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3/23/2009  2:46 PM
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by GKFv2:

Never. D'Antoni likes Avid Lee to give up 35 ppg.

going by your construct, shouldn't it be "avi lee"?

True. Avi Lee and his ouble oubles.

ha. i gotta admit that's funny.
misterearl
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3/23/2009  3:49 PM
"No (Wilcox) is not as polished or versatile as Lee, but there is one huge hole in Lee's game which coincidentally is something super-important for his position. The team doesn't need Lee's decent but still not star-like offensive game anywhere near as much as it needs a harder-nosed defensive player and overall bigger presence in the paint."

nychamp - well said



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TMS
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3/23/2009  4:11 PM
Lee is miles better than Wilcox, but that wasn't Eny's point when he made this thread... he was asking why Wilcox wasn't starting games while Lee was out w/injury... anyone who realistically thinks Wilcox can replace Lee's production on this team on a nightly basis is nuts.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Rookie
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3/23/2009  4:17 PM
Just wanted to say...I really have nothing to say today. I'm looking forward to the off-season, baseball and reruns of Heroes on NBC
Rookie
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3/23/2009  4:20 PM
Oh, and did we really sign Courtney Cox? She's hot
GKFv2
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3/23/2009  4:23 PM
Posted by Rookie:

Just wanted to say...I really have nothing to say today. I'm looking forward to the off-season, baseball and reruns of Heroes on NBC

Thank you, Rick Brunson.
misterearl
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3/23/2009  4:40 PM
I miss Miles Simon

Fuggedabout attempting to police the "point" of a thread, the discussion is what it is.

TMS - exactly how many "miles" better is Lee over Wilcox?

Please account for your mileage with the standard, accepted means of accounting as your cash reimbursement for mileage will be audited.
once a knick always a knick
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3/23/2009  4:43 PM
TMS says:
GKFv2
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3/23/2009  4:45 PM
Posted by TMS:

Lee is miles better than Wilcox, but that wasn't Eny's point when he made this thread... he was asking why Wilcox wasn't starting games while Lee was out w/injury... anyone who realistically thinks Wilcox can replace Lee's production on this team on a nightly basis is nuts.

Lee was out against Orlando and we outrebounded them. They have Dwight Howard. Lee makes little to no impact on the team in terms of wins and losses. The fact that he plays no defense at all compounds that. Wilcox would put 15 and 9 in this system, no question. He plays defense out there or at least tries too. I'd rather re-sign him for cheap than pay David Lee anything he asks for.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
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Yeah so When is Wilcox gonna start?
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