Duhon has been a great pick up for us but we all know what his ceiling is and what his purpose is... He's the stop gap we needed until a permanent option is found. We needed a capable guy and he's been that, so why bash him when he's more than done his job? He's shut up all his critics this year cuz he was supposed to be garbage! He was supposed to be a flop but he's been solid and logged huge minutes and played hurt!

Posted by TMS:

Posted by KnicksSince88:

Posted by TMS:

Duhon's still the same guy that has the Knicks' record for most assists in a game right? just checking... carry on.

Duhon is also the same guy who is posting an efficiency rating of about 12 this year. Virtually every team in the NBA has a PG superior to Duhon or a kid with upside and a bigger ceiling than Duhon, with very very few exceptions

In addition to that, despite this awesome record setting superstud, our offense operates better when he is OFF the floor, and has all season

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-23-2009 11:33 PM]

Duhon has been getting D Lee open looks all year long & some guys continue to call him garbage... i don't get it at all... stop trying to paint this discussion like we're saying Duhon's a more talented player than Nate... the point being debated is that Nate is a better PG than Duhon is... we're not talking scoring ability so what the hell do +/- stats have to do w/this discussion? if u wanna tell me that u believe Nate's a better orchestrator than Duhon is i completely disagree w/u... if u wanna tell me u think Nate's a better player than Duhon then i agree, he is.

Again. If Duhon is such an orchestrator why does the Knick offense run better when hes off the floor. Wouldn't make sense. Nate in his limited spurts at PG over the last couple of months has been far more under control and more effective in those minutes than Duhon has ever been. He should be getting more minutes at the point. Hes playing far more under control now and is coming into his own as an NBA player. His ast to TO ratio over the last few weeks has been insanely good, Hes at about 7:1 over the last 6-7 games, and handling the ball a ton yet barely turning it over, facilitating offense for others and just flat out bringing the team an energy they feed off of nightly. Duhon is flat out a below average PG. Nate may have untapped upside at the position if given a chance. The Knicks owe it to themselves to see if he can do it

If Nate was playing 36 minutes a night at the point we would be better offensively than we are now.

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-24-2009 01:16 AM]

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-24-2009 01:18 AM]

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-24-2009 01:22 AM]

Posted by TMS:

Posted by KnicksSince88:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by KnicksSince88:

Posted by TMS:

Duhon's still the same guy that has the Knicks' record for most assists in a game right? just checking... carry on.

Duhon is also the same guy who is posting an efficiency rating of about 12 this year. Virtually every team in the NBA has a PG superior to Duhon or a kid with upside and a bigger ceiling than Duhon, with very very few exceptions

In addition to that, despite this awesome record setting superstud, our offense operates better when he is OFF the floor, and has all season

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-23-2009 11:33 PM]

Duhon has been getting D Lee open looks all year long & some guys continue to call him garbage... i don't get it at all... stop trying to paint this discussion like we're saying Duhon's a more talented player than Nate... the point being debated is that Nate is a better PG than Duhon is... we're not talking scoring ability so what the hell do +/- stats have to do w/this discussion? if u wanna tell me that u believe Nate's a better orchestrator than Duhon is i completely disagree w/u... if u wanna tell me u think Nate's a better player than Duhon then i agree, he is.

Again. If Duhon is such an orchestrator why does the Knick offense run better when hes off the floor. Wouldn't make sense. Nate in his limited spurts at PG over the last couple of months has been far more under control and more effective in those minutes than Duhon has ever been. He should be getting more minutes at the point. Hes playing far more under control now and is coming into his own as an NBA player. His ast to TO ratio over the last few weeks has been insanely good.

well yeah he's playing the best basketball of his career right now... no one's even debating u... but he's more of a scorer than he is a facilitator... if u don't believe that i don't know which games ur watching... Duhon's a perfect pass first type G to have to play alongside a guy like Nate cuz he's not concerned about getting his points off, he just wants to try & set up other guys for open looks & only takes shots when the defense dictates him to do so... he's a smart basketball player that knows how to play a team oriented style of basketball... he learned that in college & has carried it on in the pros... he's not making any Allstar teams anytime soon but it's not a coincidence that the team got better this season & he was a part of that equation, & has shown that he's willing to play hurt & extended minutes all year for the sake of the team... now cuz he's had a few bad games of late people wanna hate on him all over again... i swear if the stock market had as many peaks & valleys as the UK forums i could have made a fortune by buying & shorting stocks over the past 2 months.

Of course he is more of a scorer than a facilitator but he clearly has the ability to create offense for others and has displayed that all season long when given the chance. Don't hate on Nate's ability to run an offense just because he has the skill to get his OWN shot any time he want's, something Chris Duhon can't do now or at any level in his life. He is a below average NBA PG. You don't want him playing 40 minutes a night for your basketball team. The one thing he does pretty well is run the pick and roll with David Lee which works pretty well against garbage defenses and not so well against the good ones because they realize he is no threat to pull up and take the J out of it. Nate can beat anyone in the league off the dribble, attract a defense and get others open shots, in addition to that he just gets the game flowing at a faster pace than Duhon which is to our advantage because we aren't beating many teams playing half court ball


[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-24-2009 01:31 AM]

Can we see a starting line up of:

C-Lee
F Wilcox
F Chandler
G Nate Rob
G Duhon

Please?

Posted by KnicksSince88:

Duhon Off Court On Court

Per 100 possessions
On court- Knicks score 107.9
Off court- Knicks score 110.5

Knicks Effective FG%
On Court- 49.9
Off Court- 52.8

Clearly the Knick offense runs better with Duhon off the floor and fairly significantly. And who's generally running the point when Duhon is not on the floor? There lies your answer

Wow, good find.

Posted by KnicksSince88:

Here is the link

And in addition our defense plays better when hes off the floor, and the difference is even more significant than the offensive dropoff

http://www.82games.com/0809/08NYK2.HTM#onoff

The defense has to be obvious, the guy is not capable of guarding point guards therefore we have Jeffries, Chandler or Nate on them.

Posted by TheGame:

Posted by KnicksSince88:

Nate is a better PG than Duhon even if hes not an ideal PG

And hes playing far more under control of late, look at the lack of turnovers over the last few weeks

In Duhon's defense, I think he is still hurt. But it is clear that Nate is beginning to really grasp running the offense and will his superior ability to score, he is turning into our best PG.

and Duhon knows this to be true. Like I said in the game thread at the half. It is no coincidence that Nate had to create his own offense in the first half because on numerous occasions, Duhon just simply looked away from Nate. The remedy I thought at the half was to get Nate more touches at the point. I guess Coach D felt the same way. Nate creates a whole different set of problems at the point than Duhon.

The biggest difference is Nate is a threat to score at any place and anyway on the court. So an opposing defense has to concentrate on stopping Nate by helping the defending PG and they also have to watch the other players as well. The pressure Nate puts on a team just by moving around is crazy enough. Add in the fact that he is hard to stop from penetrating even when you are standing in front of him makes it harder for opposing defenses to simply lock this this offense down. AS LONG AS NATE MAKES IT CLEAR THAT HE WILL HIT THE OPEN MAN IF YOU DOUBLE HIM!!!!

This is not the case with Chris and it allows teams to quickly adjust to our offensive scheme and lock us down. One MAJOR upside Duhon has is his ability to create a starting point and tempo for the base offense. I love Nate's game but when he is not clicking then Duhon is the master at implimenting the base offense and establishing tempo. This is very very important when you it comes to team chemistry and should not be overlooked. As someone else said earlier, a Duhon type PG is exactly what the Knicks and Nate need at this time.

As far as Nate starting, I'm not sure yet. Still thinking that one through. I'm not opposed to it but not sure how that would affect the overall team chemistry. We cannot overlook the importance of establishing team tempo and implementing the base offense.

Posted by BlueSeats:

People were pissed we weren't playing Marbury. Last few weeks Nate's been playing as good as Marbury in his prime, let alone the broken pile of crap he's been the last few years.

Anybody still not over the fact we're not playing Crybury?

No.

great stats in this thread - nice job guys

Is a Nate-Hughes-Chandler-Lee-Wilcox starting lineup in the not too-far distant future?

A few weeks ago I would have agreed with the premise that Nate is the better player but Duhon is the better PG. But the trend has headed in the other direction; even as a PG Nate is getting better and better and Duhon is falling off. I suspect Duhon is worn down/injured, but the arc Nate's career is on now is going to be hard for Duhon to catch up with or ever exceed.

I doesn't have to be one or the other though, we have and can use both of them, but that's why we needed Hughes (or any given SG,) because Nate is spending more and more time at the point, leaving Chandler as our only SG.