Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by martin:

Posted by SeattleStew:

Too bad his adjusted plus/minus over the last 2 seasons is negative.

...which really doesn't say much more than we already knew. He was on a losing team and his interior D isn't stellar. No biggie, he is improving and gonna get paid.

I noticed that start and find it very hard to just dismiss it. The fact that we're on a losing team is irrelevant. The stat merely looks at whether the team is better with him on or off the court and let's just say it's not a fun stat for D Lee fans to look at. Now I wouldn't place 100% faith in this one stat and say something like "cut D. Lee" but the stat is *a little* concerning.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 02-23-2009 10:49 AM]

Posted by martin:

Posted by martin:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by martin:

Posted by SeattleStew:

Too bad his adjusted plus/minus over the last 2 seasons is negative.

...which really doesn't say much more than we already knew. He was on a losing team and his interior D isn't stellar. No biggie, he is improving and gonna get paid.

I noticed that start and find it very hard to just dismiss it. The fact that we're on a losing team is irrelevant. The stat merely looks at whether the team is better with him on or off the court and let's just say it's not a fun stat for D Lee fans to look at. Now I wouldn't place 100% faith in this one stat and say something like "cut D. Lee" but the stat is *a little* concerning.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 02-23-2009 10:49 AM]

Bonnie better take some more stat classes.

Being on a losing team means you are being outscored as a whole more than you are outscoring your opponents, and especially considering last year, this would have a BIG impact.

If Lee was on BOS, his +/- stats would be different, but he would be the same player. How do you equate that one PhD?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1351

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by martin:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by martin:

Posted by SeattleStew:

Too bad his adjusted plus/minus over the last 2 seasons is negative.

...which really doesn't say much more than we already knew. He was on a losing team and his interior D isn't stellar. No biggie, he is improving and gonna get paid.

I noticed that start and find it very hard to just dismiss it. The fact that we're on a losing team is irrelevant. The stat merely looks at whether the team is better with him on or off the court and let's just say it's not a fun stat for D Lee fans to look at. Now I wouldn't place 100% faith in this one stat and say something like "cut D. Lee" but the stat is *a little* concerning.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 02-23-2009 10:49 AM]

Bonnie better take some more stat classes.

Being on a losing team means you are being outscored as a whole more than you are outscoring your opponents, and especially considering last year, this would have a BIG impact.

If Lee was on BOS, his +/- stats would be different, but he would be the same player. How do you equate that one PhD?

It depends on the stat you're using. If you go to 82games.com, it adjusts for the quality of the team. Specifically, it compares how much your team is outscored by per 48 min while you're on the court and how much your outscored by while you're off the court. To keep it simple, let's say that in a stretch of 96 minutes, the player plays 48 and sits 48. For the 48 he played in, his team is outscored by 12 points. For the 48 he sat in, however, his team is outscored by 18 points. His +/- number is then +6 because the team does 6 points better per 48 min with him on than off the court. The negative value means the team is being outscored by more points when Lee is on the court than the amount they are getting outscored by when he is off the court. In essence, they're less bad with him off than on the court.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 02-23-2009 8:22 PM]

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by martin:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by martin:

Posted by SeattleStew:

Too bad his adjusted plus/minus over the last 2 seasons is negative.

...which really doesn't say much more than we already knew. He was on a losing team and his interior D isn't stellar. No biggie, he is improving and gonna get paid.

I noticed that start and find it very hard to just dismiss it. The fact that we're on a losing team is irrelevant. The stat merely looks at whether the team is better with him on or off the court and let's just say it's not a fun stat for D Lee fans to look at. Now I wouldn't place 100% faith in this one stat and say something like "cut D. Lee" but the stat is *a little* concerning.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 02-23-2009 10:49 AM]

Bonnie better take some more stat classes.

Being on a losing team means you are being outscored as a whole more than you are outscoring your opponents, and especially considering last year, this would have a BIG impact.

If Lee was on BOS, his +/- stats would be different, but he would be the same player. How do you equate that one PhD?

It depends on the stat you're using. If you go to 82games.com, it adjusts for the quality of the team. Specifically, it compares how much your team is outscored by per 48 min while you're on the court and how much your outscored by while you're off the court. To keep it simple, let's say that in a stretch of 96 minutes, the player plays 48 and sits 48. For the 48 he played in, his team is outscored by 12 points. For the 48 he sat in, however, his team is outscored by 18 points. His +/- number is then +6 because the team does 6 points better per 48 min with him on than off the court. The negative value means the team is being outscored by more points when Lee is on the court than the amount they are getting outscored by when he is off the court. In essence, they're less bad with him off than on the court.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 02-23-2009 8:22 PM]

Specifically, the Knicks are -3.2 per 48 with Lee on the court and +1.2 per 48 with him off the court. http://www.82games.com/0809/0809NYK.HTM
I'll accept a written apology, Martin, or full, permanent moderator privileges so I can have some fun editing people's posts.

Posted by Cosmic:

82games.com is the worst site ever created. Anyone using it as an example to support their opinions is doing themselves a great disservice. It's total trash. Always has been.

Never seen a site that can show you a good player is absolute trash - and a bad player - is a diamond in the rough you should start and play 35 minutes a night.

It's the worst site I HAVE EVER come across in MY LIFE.


Here's a much better site:

http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/newgf.cgi

It's actually realistic.

Posted by Bonn1997:
With that reasoning, we'd expect starters to be at a disadvantage. Yet we don't find that to be the case. Most starters have good +/- stats.

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by Bonn1997:
With that reasoning, we'd expect starters to be at a disadvantage. Yet we don't find that to be the case. Most starters have good +/- stats.

most starters on winning teams

Kevin Durant is -4
Rudy Gay is -6
Tracy McGrady -1
Derrick Rose -7
Biedrins is -3
Tayshawn Prince, Rip Hamilton and Antonio McDyess this all year, all -

I think its a good site actually because those #s can tell a story, if your informed.

Saying Lee or another player isnt very good or is bringing his team down because of his +/- suggests one doesnt understand those numbers.