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Times article on progress, regress of Knicks Players under Dantoni
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Ira
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1/6/2009  1:37 PM
They were way off mark on Lee, who's a much better player than last season. Lee's scoring around 15, which means his offense is more than just putbacks. Naturally his percentage will go down.
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Masterplan
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1/6/2009  2:27 PM
crummy article. basically, the guy cherry-picked stats to fit his "little-to-no improvement" thesis. spend a little time looking at full stats, not just the ones he includes, and you can probably feel better about each player individually. anyway, how the team is doing is totally separate.
ramtour420
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1/6/2009  2:30 PM
Ok, so i actually went to this link and i read it. Conclusion? Math is nice, i like math. The numbers show something, what that something is i don't know. Akrud makes a lot of sense tho in what he's saying
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VDesai
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1/6/2009  2:58 PM
Here's an example of someone who presents numbers but doesn't really understand them, and then turns around uses them to mislead, and misrpresent what they are saying in some cases.

1) Chandler- He mentions he has been virtually the same- and he absolutely has been on a per minute basis vs. last year. However some credit has to be given for a young player actually parlaying the same kind of performance in over twice the playing time. A better article detailing Chandler's play was in Knickerblogger yesterday- his real problem is heading to the line...something he has done better in the recent games

2) Duhon- This one is outright shoddy analysis- 1.5 assists per 40 minutes vs. a year ago is a greater than 20% improvement from last year. That's just outright bad math to characterize that as a small increase as he did. His FG% has also improved slightly as the year has gone on.

3) Al Harringon's numbers are brought down significantly by the fact that they are including his horrid games with Golden St., which are not a function of D'Antoni or the Knicks. WIthout those, his numbers are closer to his career norms.

4) David Lee- Ok, his .562 FG% is lower than his true shooting percentage of 59.8% is below 60- but since when were either of those numbers bad, and since when was 59.8% signficantly far away from 60%. The criticisms here are somewhat ridiculous...More minutes, more shots, more importance in the offense- yet he's still remained a remarkably efficient scorer. In fact, his updated True Shooting is now over 60% (per knickerblogger) and he's 15th in the league. This isn't really regression, is it?
VDesai
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1/6/2009  3:02 PM
BTW, lets attribute the idiocy to the right guy. That's not Beck, who's a good beat guy. Its also not Hollinger, who's numbers are misinterpreted. The guilty party is Benjamin Hoffman.
VDesai
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1/6/2009  3:15 PM
Posted by arkrud:
Posted by markvmc:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/sports/basketball/04dribble.html?_r=1

Based on PER. By that measure, Nate is the only improved player. Should go down well here.

The numbers shown and conclusions on them based on assumption that increasing playing time should have no effect on P.E.R as it is simple math.
I think this is fundamentally wrong.
Good players (and to be good all our starters had to improve from last year as they suck big time) will maintain P.E.R with increase of the minutes but most of the players will have P.E.R decreased due to fatigue and playing against best opposition. All our current starters were backups in the past and played against backups and junk.

Absolutely- one major problem with per 40 stats and playing time increases are the diminishing returns involved in playing more minutes. Fatigue, overexposure, increased defense as the game wears on- there are number of factors that would cause those numbers to differ when a player is playing increased minutes. I wouldn't expect them to stay completely static.

Per 40 can be a good indicator of players with less playing time that perhaps warrant more time, but no guarantee of that performance carrying forward
djsunyc
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1/6/2009  3:21 PM
we should start using per 68 stats. it's a better indicator.
Bippity10
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1/6/2009  3:25 PM
The best player in the history of my coaching career averaged 10 pts, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal and shot 40% from the field. He also won conference player of the year 2 years in a row. Stats can kiss my asse.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 06-01-2009 3:34 PM]
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LBeast
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1/6/2009  3:54 PM
Why anyone puts any stock in PER stats is beyond me.

Chandler didnt play last year, he's starting and getting major minutes this year, yet, he's not as good as he was last year? Seriously?
Marv
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1/6/2009  4:02 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

The best player in the history of my coaching career averaged 10 pts, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal and shot 40% from the field. He also won conference player of the year 2 years in a row. Stats can kiss my asse.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 06-01-2009 3:34 PM]

sounds like the poor kid was held back by poor coaching.
TMS
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1/6/2009  4:08 PM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by Bippity10:

The best player in the history of my coaching career averaged 10 pts, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal and shot 40% from the field. He also won conference player of the year 2 years in a row. Stats can kiss my asse.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 06-01-2009 3:34 PM]

sounds like the poor kid was held back by poor coaching.

everyone knows Bip doesn't develop his young players.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
BasketballJones
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1/6/2009  4:41 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Marv:
Posted by Bippity10:

The best player in the history of my coaching career averaged 10 pts, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal and shot 40% from the field. He also won conference player of the year 2 years in a row. Stats can kiss my asse.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 06-01-2009 3:34 PM]

sounds like the poor kid was held back by poor coaching.

everyone knows Bip doesn't develop his young players.

Sounds like the kid needed a little Effort Management.
https:// It's not so hard.
Masterplan
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1/6/2009  4:46 PM
Posted by VDesai:

Here's an example of someone who presents numbers but doesn't really understand them, and then turns around uses them to mislead, and misrpresent what they are saying in some cases.

1) Chandler- He mentions he has been virtually the same- and he absolutely has been on a per minute basis vs. last year. However some credit has to be given for a young player actually parlaying the same kind of performance in over twice the playing time. A better article detailing Chandler's play was in Knickerblogger yesterday- his real problem is heading to the line...something he has done better in the recent games

2) Duhon- This one is outright shoddy analysis- 1.5 assists per 40 minutes vs. a year ago is a greater than 20% improvement from last year. That's just outright bad math to characterize that as a small increase as he did. His FG% has also improved slightly as the year has gone on.

not to mention, the guy bases his case on will chandler on his PER, but doesn't even mention it when discussing duhon. why? maybe because duhon's PER this season is a career best?
Bippity10
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1/6/2009  4:48 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Marv:
Posted by Bippity10:

The best player in the history of my coaching career averaged 10 pts, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal and shot 40% from the field. He also won conference player of the year 2 years in a row. Stats can kiss my asse.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 06-01-2009 3:34 PM]

sounds like the poor kid was held back by poor coaching.

everyone knows Bip doesn't develop his young players.

Sounds like the kid needed a little Effort Management.

I once had a lady reporter say that my team would get better if only I could get them to try harder. I told her "the world would be a better place if she got the f out of my office." Then I stabbed the bitche.

True story.
I just hope that people will like me
Marv
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1/6/2009  4:58 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Marv:
Posted by Bippity10:

The best player in the history of my coaching career averaged 10 pts, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal and shot 40% from the field. He also won conference player of the year 2 years in a row. Stats can kiss my asse.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 06-01-2009 3:34 PM]

sounds like the poor kid was held back by poor coaching.

everyone knows Bip doesn't develop his young players.

Sounds like the kid needed a little Effort Management.

I once had a lady reporter say that my team would get better if only I could get them to try harder. I told her "the world would be a better place if she got the f out of my office." Then I stabbed the bitche.

True story.

that's the type of old school sports-as-character-building story that brings a tear to my eye.
TMS
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1/6/2009  5:03 PM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Marv:
Posted by Bippity10:

The best player in the history of my coaching career averaged 10 pts, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal and shot 40% from the field. He also won conference player of the year 2 years in a row. Stats can kiss my asse.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 06-01-2009 3:34 PM]

sounds like the poor kid was held back by poor coaching.

everyone knows Bip doesn't develop his young players.

Sounds like the kid needed a little Effort Management.

I once had a lady reporter say that my team would get better if only I could get them to try harder. I told her "the world would be a better place if she got the f out of my office." Then I stabbed the bitche.

True story.

that's the type of old school sports-as-character-building story that brings a tear to my eye.

i guess the old saying "the team is a reflection of its head coach" really is true.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
VDesai
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1/6/2009  5:11 PM
Here's a much better article that weighs the ups and downs of Wilson Chandler's progress vs. last year:
http://www.knickerblogger.net/?p=1260
holfresh
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1/6/2009  5:19 PM
Posted by GallOfFame:

If you respect Hollinger's statistical breakdown sure. I didn't need PER to come to this conclusion. I already proved as much in the Simmons thread, our coach really doesn't improve a player's overall game.

This system is very good at being deceptive because of how fast paced and frantic the play is.

I think your original premise in the Simmons thread was incorrect...I don't think Simmons was saying MDA's system made these players better but instead it improved their stats...His example in Nash was that his numbers reverted to what they were prior to playing in SSOL...Simmons thought Nash was not deserving of the MVP votes, as did I, because his numbers were hyped by the system...Does the Knicks players stats at their career highs not prove this...I mean do we really believe all these players are better...I think you and Simmons were saying the same thing...
markvmc
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1/6/2009  5:50 PM
Posted by LBeast:

Why anyone puts any stock in PER stats is beyond me.

Chandler didnt play last year, he's starting and getting major minutes this year, yet, he's not as good as he was last year? Seriously?

The article doesn't say he isn't as good as last year; only that so far, by certain objective statistical measures, he isn't significantly better.
Bippity10
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1/6/2009  6:29 PM
I'm pretty sure that Isiah Thomas used this analysis to make his free-agent signings and trades.
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Times article on progress, regress of Knicks Players under Dantoni
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