Posted by TMS:

Posted by Finestrg:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Allanfan20:

I never said we had to trade Gallo for him. WOULD I? Yes, in all honesty, I would. have I given up on him? No. I just like AR better.

What do I think it would take to get AR? I would say most likely David Lee. Not sure if I would go that far though. I'd rather get a sure thing for Lee.

David Lee? no way dude... only way i'd trade Lee for AR is if they threw in their 1st rounder along w/it... AR is still a completely unproven commodity while D Lee is a guaranteed double double every night & still a young player himself... i MIGHT go for a Wilson Chandler for AR & a 2nd rounder if they wanted to do it only because this team needs a shotblocker in the worst way & that 2nd rounder can be a relatively high pick if GS keeps struggling this season, but definitely not D Lee in a straight up swap... Gallo for AR is a tough call because i think both kids have potential but i would really not like to give up on Gallo before at least seeing what he can do at this level playing in this system.

I think you got something here. I like the idea of trying to get Golden State's 2nd rounder. I totally agree with you - you can get a player at that spot.

How about something like this:

David Lee and Roberson for Marcus Williams, Marco Belinelli and their 2009 2nd rounder. Maybe we don't look to get too greedy here by asking for Anthony Randolph and their 1st rounder - maybe that scares them off. I think this would be a fair trade. Essentially we get a brand new young backcourt for the future - we're gonna NEED a PG for the future and a 2-guard as well. Williams hasn't done much and wouldn't command too much money to reup (even if we had to reup this kid in the $3 mil. per range, that's over 100% more than what he's getting now - $1.2 million) but he's young and a good passer that can shoot the 3 as well and with increased PT, Belinelli's really coming on strong now as a shooter/scorer. Still want Randolph? Then you go all in by throwing them Chandler for Randolph. Both trades were successful with the trade checker over at Realgm.com btw. That could work. It's obvious Don Nelson doesn't like or appreciate Williams, Belinelli or now even Randolph - I would think all three would come in here and fill some gapping holes. Odds are these guys would excel under MDA & be the cost-effective, salary-controlled guys we're looking to re-load with w/o interfering too much with our 2010 cap plan.

Then we use our 2009 1st to draft Cole Aldrich and the 2nd rounder we just acquired to grab Taj Gibson. Brand new frontcourt right there. So not even counting Randolph (who we could get by sweetening the deal by including Chandler) we could potentially add 4 really nice players here:

Marcus Williams
Marco Belinelli
Cole Aldrich
Taj Gibson

AND possibly Anthony Randolph if we had to have him by included Wilson Chandler

Brand new dynamic frontline with enough talent left over to cover the 3 (Gallinari, with Harrington and Q still in the mix for next year) AND a brand new talented backcourt for the future. Aldrich looks to be a legit center that will contribute in the NBA, Gibby's had a fine season so far and would come in here and more than cover for the departed David Lee (Taj just had 10 pts., 18 rebs. & 3 blocks in a USC win yesterday) and like I said, Williams is capable of running the show and scoring and Belinelli is really starting to contribute with additional PT. Nelson gets to clear guys out that he's obvious not satisfied with and gets a guy in Lee that's coveted around the league right now and that they could definitely use. Nelson also gets to decide if he wants Wilson Chandler over Randolph. I'd do both trades if I'm the Knicks - they're not gonna get anything better for David Lee IMHO. Hopefully that might be enough positive turnover to lure a LeBron in 2010 or at least appear to be a step in the right direction...


[Edited by - finestrg on 12-21-2008 06:31 AM]

i do like Marco Bellinelli for this system & i think he'd be a nice fit... if we could get AR & the paisan for Wilson Chandler i'd probably do it, but Chandler's doing a fine job so far so why should we look to give up on him now? why do we as Knick fans always covet unproven players on other teams so much more than players that are putting up better stats on our own? it's puzzling to me... i have zero interest in Marcus Williams, the guy hasn't been able to prove himself anywhere since he's been in the NBA... maybe he just isn't all that good to begin with? plenty of players have looked great in the college ranks & haven't lived up to their hype at the pro level... in my mind Marcus Williams isn't worth giving up anything more than a 2nd round pick at this point.

Just trying to figure out a way to make the Knicks more attractive w/o adding too much salary. I think Marcus Williams, even though he hasn't done much in the league so far, has good ability. At U-Conn he was a real solid floor leader, a good passer and a decent shooter with legit 3-pt. range - and he's shown flashes in the NBA for the Nets in a limited capacity, both before and after he came back from the broken foot. He pretty much became expendable for the Nets once they made the trade to bring in Devin Harris for Kidd last February however. The Nets then saw an opportunity to grab a future 1st rounder for him & then dealt him to GS. Last year, before the trade, Williams was playing pretty well. Wasn't he hitting on like 38, 39% from 3? Was never too crazy about hearing how he and AJ Price conspired to steal laptop computers on the U-Conn campus, but everyone makes mistakes when you're young I guess. Bottom line for us - if we decide to move on w/o Chris Duhon next year, we're gonna need a PG, esp. if Duhon continues to play himself right out of our price range. We could roll the dice on other options while keeping an eye on what the Warriors wind up doing with Williams (they never picked up his option and there have been strong rumors that they were close to cutting him recently so, yeah, there's a chance we could pick him up off the scrap heap eventually OR another team could come along and grab him and then we loose out on a 23 yr. old PG with promise) or we could be bold and move Lee/Roberson now for an entire new backcourt plus a 2nd rounder that we could use to possibly get a good enough PF to replace David Lee with. Lee's been great and his double-doubles and hustle are gonna be hard to replace but if you ask me, what would basically amount to 3 players here - Williams, Belinelli and Taj Gibson - is EXCELLENT value for Lee. There are a ton of question marks with this team moving forward - who's gonna be our PG in a couple of seasons? Our SG? Our C? Our PF if we don't retain Lee? How can we add more depth? - to me, with a move like this, we have a chance to answer 3 of those questions and help make the team a lot more attractive to a potential 2010 FA.

I hear ya on possibly keeping Chandler rather than including him to get them to kick in Randolph - I kinda felt the same way when I wrote it, that's why I phrased it like I did, "if we had to have him we could...". Chandler might wind up being the better player. He's shown an inconsistent offensive game so far but he's very versatile and still learning. To me, as long as Chandler STAYS AGGRESSIVE he'll be alright. So yeah, I wouldn't HAVE TO HAVE Randolph necessarily - I just wanted to point out an opportunity to get what I want and what I think we need & to also possibly get the guy you guys like too. Bottom line, Randolph or no Randolph, you give me Williams, Belinelli and their early 2nd rounder that I can use to get a decent player with, I fine with that for David Lee. More than fine actually. If we're gonna trade Lee, this is the trade you make right here IMO.

[Edited by - finestrg on 12-21-2008 11:49 AM]

Posted by Ira:

He's done very well in some ways, but it's hard to see where to play him. He doesn't have a good enough shot to play small forward and he'll get physically abused at power forward. If AR can either learn to hit a 3 or find a way to put on weight, he'll have a very nice career. But each of those things seem like major issues for him.

Randolph is someone who should have stayed in college for another year- he would have been a top 5 pick if he had made any progress from his freshman season.

Not sure that he can develop a consistent 3 from my observation of how he holds the ball, releases it, and the arc on his shot, but he will be a good midrange shooter. I don't think he has hit a 3 in Summer League or the season so far, and that tells me something about his game at this stage of his young career.

Like you, I also wonder about the weight issue- he does not have much of a frame to work with, but trainers and dieticians can do amazing things these days, so I can't make a final judgement on this factor.

It looks like he can be a very good off the ball shot blocker- I've seen him leave his man to make some nice blocks in where he makes the block shortly after the shot leaves the shooter's hand (like Russell), but I also remember Tim Thomas backing him down low and jamming on him as if he was not there, and Thomas' interior game is hardly legendary. Randloph is quick enough, though, to be an excellent team D defender, although I wonder if he has the mental tenacity to play man to man D at the 3 on a consistent basis.

I consider myself to be one of the biggest Gallo supporters on this board, but I also believe that you cannot have too much talent on a team, and if they have to compete against each other, I have no problem accepting one or the other as the "winner." I do think that a healthy Gallinari is a better fit in D'Antoni's system, but if he grows any more, which is what people expect, he could play the 4 and Randolph the 3, with Gallo's shooting range making up for Anthony's lack of range, and Anthony's PF shot blocking ability possibly compensating for Gallo's shotblocking deficiencies (Don't know much about this part of his game, though.). The Knicks did have Randolph in for a pre-draft look, so you have to think that they have an idea of how he would play in D'Antoni's system, and they obviously thought that Gallinari was a better fit for a MDA team based on what they saw.

If they Knicks really don't have any intention of signing D Lee, who I would prefer to keep, I would use him to trade for Randolph if GS was willing.

Posted by cooch2584:

A Randolph for the medical ex. agree??

I don't know...I think GS would want more than just an exemption in return.

Also, isn't Randolph disappointing? A 190 PF who is just mentally weak? Is this not the kid that nearly cried on the court after QBrick jammed on him? W's had to take him out of the game because of it? It happened to him again recently - got dunked on - cried and stopped playing - had to be sat out.

This really isn't something I'd look to fill Mobley's roster spot with.

Right now, if we get the exemption, and Marbury isn't resolved, we MUST got a guard in here that can handle the ball.

I still say our best option is the Exemption (4.4M or so) for Chucky Atkins (3.8M + 700k only guaranteed in 09/10). I think he could spell Duhon and Nate enough so we don't kill those guys out there. If not Atkins I'd rather sign a hungry young guard like say that scrappy kid Walker Russell JR. Again, if a clear cut solid guard is out there, we go for it, but I don't see one.

Guard first until we have another roster spot.

Randolph is not available. Nelson singled out Randolph because Mullins is high on him. Randolph is caught in the middle of a messy divorce. Mullins said he has no intentions on trading him because he believes he will be a star in the league.

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by Pharzeone:

Randolph is not available. Nelson singled out Randolph because Mullins is high on him. Randolph is caught in the middle of a messy divorce. Mullins said he has no intentions on trading him because he believes he will be a star in the league.

Sucks for Randolph. I think Mullin is gonna lose out on this one since the Warriors just signed Nellie to a 2year extension.

I am not sure. Fans having been screaming some obscene things at home games about Nellie and their desire is that he leaves and takes his guy Crawford with him. Didn't take long for Warrior to appreciate Crawford.

[Edited by - pharzeone on 12-21-2008 9:47 PM]

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Finestrg:

Bottom line, Randolph or no Randolph, you give me Williams, Belinelli and their early 2nd rounder that I can use to get a decent player with, I fine with that for David Lee. More than fine actually. If we're gonna trade Lee, this is the trade you make right here IMO.

if u want a PG for the future in case Duhon leaves, i would look to get one in the draft... unless a team was gonna kick back a pretty high 1st rounder i would stay away from any D Lee for unproven player deals... u don't even know if Marcus Williams or Bellinelli are anything more than role players or that u'll get anything more than that from that 2nd round pick either... D Lee is a proven young double double guy w/a terrific attitude & will not be making close to max dollars in the contract extension he signs... he should definitely get you back at the very least a high 1st round pick if not a proven player on the same level as he is.

Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on Lee's worth my friend. I'm interested in a couple of things for the good of my team here - rebuilding a roster as quickly as possible and keeping team salary low in the process. It's a fine line and a real tough task Walsh has ahead of him, but that's what he needs to do. You're calling Williams and Belinelli role players - what is Lee exactly? Now we've been down this road before - Is Lee an all-star? I would have to say no. Is he even a starter on one of the better teams in the league? Probably not. Lee's the epitome of a role player bro. He's double-digit rebounds & great hustle combined with limited offense, basically no defense and a pretty low ceiling from here on in. Some of you guys have been saying it - MDA's system, along with the sudden lack of decent frontcourt depth on this team, has really allowed Lee to shine and probably appear better than he is - and his numbers are only inflated to the 14/10 mark, not 20/10 or more. Why? Because he's just not that good. 20/10 is elite status - Lee's just not an elite level player. He's not one of the better PFs in the game, probably never will be, regardless of how good the current system makes him look. And for the upteenth time, don't get me wrong, I love the guy and truly appreciate what he brings to the table. He has value. Nice value actually. I just have trouble seeing how we get a lottery pick for him or a player of his caliber or better like you're suggesting. I know Memphis was prepared to do it, but IMHO, they were completely out to lunch. How do you deal a top 5 pick, a player that ultimately turned into OJ Mayo, for David Lee? Of course you shoot for the stars, but let's be honest here, Memphis' willingness to deal us the 5th pick in the 2008 draft in exchange for Lee was really an aberration and definitely not something we should expect to happen again. Memphis would've lived to regret that trade for years if it went down and they lost out on a potential STAR player like Mayo - A team like Memphis needs to build around a guy like Mayo, not David Lee. And who's the salary-controlled similar player/players we're getting for Lee? Remember, dealing Lee at this point has got to be for a young player or players whose salaries don't come into play for 2010 - guys we can acquire, develop and pay AFTER 2010 once we got what we wanted from the 2010 FA crop. So who? Josh Smith? Al Horford? No way would Atlanta do that. Both of those guys are better players with much higher ceilings. Josh Smith just reuped to a rediculous contract extention not too long ago anyway...

The parameters surrounding dealing David Lee at this point are crystal clear to me - it requires a lot of guts, a lot of vision and a lot of conviction in your decision. If guys like Curry/Jeffries can't suddenly be moved by 2010 for shorter deals (something that's highly unlikely IMO - both guys STINK), I'm afraid trading Lee and the $10 mil. a year he'll undoubtedly be looking for IS COMPLETELY NECESSARY FOR THE GOOD OF THIS TEAM. Otherwise, we won't be able to max out come 2010 FA. How can we allow a role player that will command $10 mil. a pop to limit our FA opportunities like that?? I've said it before and I'll say it again right now - Lee's replaceable. Again, in return for Lee, we need 1 or 2 guys who are preferably still on their rookie contracts that aren't up for a raise in 2010 - guys that have ability now but potential for a whole lot more playing for MDA. And we also need to fill some rather HUGE holes on this team moving forward that will begin to reveal themselves at almost every position as time moves along here. You'll see, this whole roster will have to be flipped soon in order to (a) clear salary - so many guys just won't be retained because they'll want too much money to stay and (b) to hopefully add enough young talent to still make the organization look attractive to a potential 2010 FA. Now with Lee & Roberson (included to make the money work) for Williams, Belinelli and their 2009 HIGH 2nd rounder we'll have the opportunity to plug some holes here for the future - I personally like the idea of adding a brand new backcourt myself. Williams could be a real nice, well-rounded PG for D'Antoni, a guy that could score and dish (think a better, quicker, more creative, more aggressive version of Chris Duhon) - Williams will be past his rookie deal but won't command much money at all - a lot less that what Duhon will want, that's for sure; Belinelli is one of the better young SGs in the league who's really starting to show what he can do now with more minutes (he's getting time now because Jackson and Maggette are out with injuries) and I personally like that 2009 high 2nd round pick - I think we can get a decent player at that position or maybe use it and some cash to trade up to get back into the first round for a second pick. That's a nice 3 for 1 right there. You're right in a way - of course, you shoot for the stars and try to get the most you can for Lee (I'm confident Walsh is out there trying to do just that - the guy's ultra-patient & doesn't panic - I'm confident he'll get the most he can for him) but I don't see how we could do much better than what amounts to 3 capable young pieces to help fill out our future rotation in exchange for a solid role player like David Lee.


[Edited by - finestrg on 12-21-2008 10:45 PM]

I just realized and posted this in another thread that Lee is basically Kurt Thomas. Lee has more hops, less defense and a more limited outside game.

If we can sign Lee to KT type money, I'd love to keep him. Otherwise, I think we can find a similar player elsewhere if we look hard enough.

I think you will need KT money +25% more to sign Lee at a minimum.

Why do I like this kid--OK he's not a great 3 point shooter--but he can do everything else--everything that a good team has to have ---take into account that he is 19 and doctors said he has 2-3 inches to go yet--this is why I was high on him--we need this type of player but alas we wont get him because GS cant be that stupid. we didnt need gallinari--we dont need another 6-10 guy who can shoot 3's and grab 4 rebounds--we needed this guy.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2008122219

Briggs get over it. We didn't draft him and GState is not going to trade him.

Posted by BRIGGS:

Posted by Knicksfansince94:

Randolph update: 2 blocks in 21 minutes tonight; a blow out in favour of the Magic.

I just looked it up--after tonight Randolph has just as many blocked shots as the ENTIRE Knick team and this kid barely plays! This guy has KG like potential

Briggs- I think your right- the only kind of big MDA is going to be happy with is the kind that can shoot from outside. And if we are ever going to have a center that can actually block shots, its going to have to be a player like this kid might become.