[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

THE NY sports debate
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum
Page 2 of 4 ‹ Previous 1  2  3  4 Next ›
« Reply To Topic
Author Thread
djsunyc
Posts: 44929
Alba Posts: 42
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #536
12/19/2008  8:54 PM
the debate isn't about whether you like baseball or not. the debate is whether baseball is the #1 sport in ny. and it is. $$$'s, attendance, talk radio, ratings, merchandise all support this.
AUTOADVERT
GallOfFame
Posts: 20554
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 11/6/2008
Member: #2320
USA
12/19/2008  8:57 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

the debate isn't about whether you like baseball or not. the debate is whether baseball is the #1 sport in ny. and it is. $$$'s, attendance, talk radio, ratings, merchandise all support this.

Not that this is a revelation but it's been this way for a while now.
kam77
Posts: 27664
Alba Posts: 25
Joined: 3/17/2004
Member: #634
12/19/2008  8:58 PM
nobody plays baseball in ny. the debate wasn't about ratings or atendance at all. it was about what kind of town th is is.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
djsunyc
Posts: 44929
Alba Posts: 42
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #536
12/19/2008  9:02 PM
when the knicks are good, is this a hoops town?

how in the blue heck does that translate to "do you play basketball in ny"?
kam77
Posts: 27664
Alba Posts: 25
Joined: 3/17/2004
Member: #634
12/19/2008  9:11 PM
The city is a reflection of the game of hoops. Bright lights. Jazz music. Improvisational wizardry. Grittty ballers for fans from gritty streets chanting DEE-fence, DEE-fence. Basketball is ballet with a ball. The calculus of hoops blows the geometry of baseball out of the water like NY's bright lights blow other cities out of the water. Teams clash, players clash, systems clash. Baseball is a series of individual face-offs. An old fashioned piecemeal assembly line method of scoring. Basketball requires 5 moving parts flowing in unison, each riffing off the other when their turn comes like so much jazz music flowing from smokey dimly-lit bars. NY understands basketball and basketball is NY. Its the game of the streets, the soul of the city.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
Cookdcokehop
Posts: 22452
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 3/25/2005
Member: #880
USA
12/19/2008  9:12 PM
For people that live in the hood like me, basketball is not only the best sport but medication to numb reality. I have some hispanic friends that play baseball but they are also NBA fanatics. I guess the answer to this question is based on where your from. If you live in Staten Island your more likely to like baseball than someone from the Harlem.
Silverfuel
Posts: 31750
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 6/27/2002
Member: #268
USA
12/19/2008  9:20 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

when the knicks are good, is this a hoops town?

how in the blue heck does that translate to "do you play basketball in ny"?
I thought the same.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081
12/20/2008  4:29 AM
NY loves baseball and it's 24/7..365...It's not fanatical about it but its the number one sport if you ask me...That said, if the Knicks are playing well and winning, you would think it's an all hoops town...It was just nuts when Ewing and the gang made their run...The fever and the emotion was all there like no other time in sports..Not even when the Yankees, Mets, Giants or Jets are winning...People are split in their allegiance with baseball(Yanks/Mets) and football(Giants/Jets)...But its all one love for the Knicks...If the Knicks are winning and playing well, it dominates baseball and football...Go figure...
TMS
Posts: 60684
Alba Posts: 617
Joined: 5/11/2004
Member: #674
USA
12/20/2008  11:31 PM
how can u say baseball is barely a sport? since when does it not take top conditioning & extreme athletic ability to hit a 99 mph fastball? or to run down a ball in the gap & make a dive play fully stretched out to catch it? or to throw out a fast runner on a sac fly from deep right field to gun him out at the plate? or throw a baseball at 99 mph? can any of you do it?

i don't care how much skill u think u might have or how much u wanna practice learning the game, none of us will ever be able to do the things that major league baseball players do on a daily basis... it takes athletic ability to excel in baseball just like it does in any sport... it also takes a ton of mental toughness as well, maybe moreso than in any other sport out there, which is what makes baseball so unique in its own way.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-20-2008 8:34 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
ramtour420
Posts: 26769
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 3/19/2007
Member: #1388
Russian Federation
12/21/2008  3:31 AM
Posted by TMS:

how can u say baseball is barely a sport? since when does it not take top conditioning & extreme athletic ability to hit a 99 mph fastball? or to run down a ball in the gap & make a dive play fully stretched out to catch it? or to throw out a fast runner on a sac fly from deep right field to gun him out at the plate? or throw a baseball at 99 mph? can any of you do it?

i don't care how much skill u think u might have or how much u wanna practice learning the game, none of us will ever be able to do the things that major league baseball players do on a daily basis... it takes athletic ability to excel in baseball just like it does in any sport... it also takes a ton of mental toughness as well, maybe moreso than in any other sport out there, which is what makes baseball so unique in its own way.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-20-2008 8:34 PM]


Ok, i see what you are saying. I think first of all, there needs to be a clear criteria of what makes up a sport. Obviously every single sport requires some sort of a skill, thats a given. Obviously only a rediculously small amount of people can be great at it so the arguement that neither one of us can do it is weightless.

To me what separates a sport from a game is how much athleticism vs. skill is required in order to be one of the best at it. If you can be the best with just skill- its a game(pool, golf, darts, bowling etc). On the other hand you have "pure" sports where skill alone wount cut it(swimming, running, weight lifting, pole vaulting, gymnastics, boxing etc) Baseball requires both- some elements require more athleticism than skill, others are more skill based. Lets use the examples you gave.

To make a dive play to catch a ball- mostly athleticism but a lot of skill as well.To throw out a fast runner- all skill.To throw a baseball 99mph- athletic but to be the best pitcher it takes skill. Even if we look at what makes some1 a Hall of Famer. Its not how fast they throw the ball, its their ERA.To hit a 99 mile fastball you definately need some athletic ability but you need more skill than athleticism, back in the day when there were no steroids all of them baseball legends were not athletic freaks, they were just incredibly skilled. Yes to steal bases you need to be a really fast runner( athletic ability) but that wount make you a hall of famer if your batting average sucks.

Now it seems like steroids are giving the players enough athletic ability to break the previous records and there is talk of how its ruining the game. So in its essence baseball was always a skill based game.
Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
TMS
Posts: 60684
Alba Posts: 617
Joined: 5/11/2004
Member: #674
USA
12/21/2008  7:53 AM
every sport requires skill dude... but u'r kidding urself if u truly think that throwing out a fast runner takes mostly skill... i don't care how many times u wanna practice throwing the ball to get out runners, if u don't have the arm strength & velocity to throw the ball u ain't gonna have a chance in hell of getting the runner out a home plate... no way... same goes for hitting a 99 mpg fastball, u need batspeed to catch up to it & w/o the athletic ability & the extreme hand to eye coordination that it takes to actually catch up to a ball thrown that fast u ain't gonna be hitting it i don't care how many practice swings u wanna take in a batting cage... baseball is unique in that it not only takes extreme athletic ability but it also is a very mental game where you have to know the pitchers' patterns or the hitters' patterns in order to succeed at the ML level... baseball encompasses both factors of athleticism & the cerebral which IMHO takes it to a level that u just can't get in other sports.

in regards to steroids, it pervades every single sport out there whether u'r talking about football, basketball, baseball, ultimate fighting, weight lifting, cycling, swimming or anything else... baseball involves skill just like every other sport does... u can't seriously think that NBA players don't dabble in the juice, do u? just because baseball has been in the spotlight of late because of the steroid scandel doesn't mean tons of other athletes in the professional sports world aren't turning to the stuff to give them a competitive edge... the mere fact that baseball players are using the stuff in itself just reinforces the notion that it takes supreme athletic ability to excel in the sport, otherwise why bother corrupting their bodies in the first place?

as for technique, it is essential to pull off 500 lb. deadlifts just like it's essential to pull off getting by a defensive lineman to get to the QB, but w/o athletic ability to pull off those moves it doesn't matter how much skill u have u ain't gonna be able to excel in any sport, whether we're talking about baseball or whatever else.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
ramtour420
Posts: 26769
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 3/19/2007
Member: #1388
Russian Federation
12/24/2008  4:11 AM
Posted by TMS:

every sport requires skill dude... but u'r kidding urself if u truly think that throwing out a fast runner takes mostly skill... i don't care how many times u wanna practice throwing the ball to get out runners, if u don't have the arm strength & velocity to throw the ball u ain't gonna have a chance in hell of getting the runner out a home plate... no way... same goes for hitting a 99 mpg fastball, u need batspeed to catch up to it & w/o the athletic ability & the extreme hand to eye coordination that it takes to actually catch up to a ball thrown that fast u ain't gonna be hitting it i don't care how many practice swings u wanna take in a batting cage... baseball is unique in that it not only takes extreme athletic ability but it also is a very mental game where you have to know the pitchers' patterns or the hitters' patterns in order to succeed at the ML level... baseball encompasses both factors of athleticism & the cerebral which IMHO takes it to a level that u just can't get in other sports.

in regards to steroids, it pervades every single sport out there whether u'r talking about football, basketball, baseball, ultimate fighting, weight lifting, cycling, swimming or anything else... baseball involves skill just like every other sport does... u can't seriously think that NBA players don't dabble in the juice, do u? just because baseball has been in the spotlight of late because of the steroid scandel doesn't mean tons of other athletes in the professional sports world aren't turning to the stuff to give them a competitive edge... the mere fact that baseball players are using the stuff in itself just reinforces the notion that it takes supreme athletic ability to excel in the sport, otherwise why bother corrupting their bodies in the first place?

as for technique, it is essential to pull off 500 lb. deadlifts just like it's essential to pull off getting by a defensive lineman to get to the QB, but w/o athletic ability to pull off those moves it doesn't matter how much skill u have u ain't gonna be able to excel in any sport, whether we're talking about baseball or whatever else.

Thats my point exactly, to lift weights you need to be a brick****house , then work on your form. To get to the QB you need to be not only strong but fast as well, then get enough experience and technique to get the most out of your athletic ability. When you are hitting the ball its hand eye coordination first, then its your form, then its your reaction time(don't wanna swing on a ball), then its the mental aspect of it all(pitches patterns etc) and only then, if and only if you have all that already, you can make it better with your athletic ability. If it was such an athletic feast you'd see all these huge guys(especially with the steroids) but thats not the case, pretty much all the baseball HoF are not so different athletically from the regular baseball players. Why would the athletes taint their bodies with steroids then? Because they already have the skill, the technique and adding steroids will give them that extra edge.

Throwing the ball , same thing you can be huge, fast, strong but if your hand eye coordination is only average it woun't matter. There is so much technique, such subtle body adjustments, so many different types of throws(99 mile fastball is just one type), there is so much of a mental part to it like you said. To get 99 mph on that ball the pitcher has to have perfect footwork, perfect balance, perfect form on his arm, perfect release(i remember reading Pedro Martinez saying that the tips of his fingers burn when he releases the fastball)and a bunch of other technical things that i am not aware of. Athleticism is just a part of that and not the main part i don't think. So if we can agree that athleticism is present but its not the #1 factor in baseball, then from my point of view baseball is not a "pure" sport.

Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
TMS
Posts: 60684
Alba Posts: 617
Joined: 5/11/2004
Member: #674
USA
12/24/2008  4:27 AM
i think we both have differing definitions of the word "athleticism" then... to me, athleticism encompasses physical ability & natural talent... all pro baseball players have that gift whereas average Joe's like you & me can practice the game of baseball all we want but we'll never ever be able to do the things that those baseball players do on a daily basis, we simply don't have the physical capacity or the natural talent to do it... even if we work out like crazy & take steroids to bulk our bodies up, we still won't be able to play at the pro level... to me, athleticism is not just pure strength & muscle mass... it's a God given gift... 1 of the most gifted natural athletes of alltime by the name of Dave Winfield who excelled at all of the 3 major sports & could have probably played in the pro ranks in any of them, chose baseball over basketball or football... u wanna tell me he wasn't a superior athlete? Bo Jackson, another phenomenal athlete who excelled at the game of baseball during his era... Rickey Henderson, Ty Cobb, Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, Alex Rodriguez, Albert Pujols, Mickey Mantle, Derek Jeter, Roberto Alomar, Mariano Rivera, the list of great athletes in baseball over the years goes on & on... & yes, even though u may not think of Babe Ruth as an athlete, he was probably 1 of the greatest athletes of alltime in pro sports cuz not only was he able to dominate the game of baseball w/his natural hitting ability, but was also a dominant pitcher in his early years & set tons of records... u don't do that in any sport unless u possess athletic ability... this is completely different than when we talk about purely skills based "sports" like bowling, billiards & to a lesser extent golf (tho u do need to possess athletic ability to drive the ball a long distance but that's still much more of a skills based sport)

when i refer to skill, i'm talking about the learned aspects of the game... adjusting of strategy, practicing footwork on defense, getting better jumps off 1st base when stealing a base, adjusting your pitching motion to fine tune your location & motion on your pitches, stuff like that... that stuff can be practiced & learned through coaching... but you cannot coach raw talent or physical ability... u either have it or you don't... that's why i think baseball encompasses both aspects of athleticism & skill equally which makes it quite unique among other sports out there that rely more heavily on the physical aspect only & less on the mental.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
jrodmc
Posts: 32927
Alba Posts: 50
Joined: 11/24/2004
Member: #805
USA
12/24/2008  10:32 AM
The whole stupidity surrounding which sport is better, I'll almost sidestep and leave to the rest of you mental titans.

I hate baseball. I play basketball. I love the game. Baseball is a pasttime, like golf. Basketball is listed in most medical guides along with swimming and chopping firewood as some of the best activities to promote your health. My arthritic knees, hips and ankles aside.

But I have one question for you all that should settle what type of town NYC is:

When was the last time you heard of ANYONE talking about hot stove basketball? (and I'm not counting loser GM boards and those fantasy league idiots)

Hoops is lucky in this area, even during the Ewing and Clyde glory years (and I've lived through both) to get mentioned before hockey and college sports. That's just the way it is. Because the majority of the population lose interest in hoops once march madness comes and goes.

One thing I've never understood about Boston, and this might be my pasty white naivete, but how does one man win everything in college, win Gold at the Olympics and then practically win 11 f-uh-huh-ucking rings in a row, and they go and name a tunnel after Ted Williams? Priceless.
arkrud
Posts: 32217
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
12/24/2008  11:01 AM
Posted by TMS:

i think we both have differing definitions of the word "athleticism" then... to me, athleticism encompasses physical ability & natural talent... all pro baseball players have that gift whereas average Joe's like you & me can practice the game of baseball all we want but we'll never ever be able to do the things that those baseball players do on a daily basis, we simply don't have the physical capacity or the natural talent to do it... even if we work out like crazy & take steroids to bulk our bodies up, we still won't be able to play at the pro level... to me, athleticism is not just pure strength & muscle mass... it's a God given gift... 1 of the most gifted natural athletes of alltime by the name of Dave Winfield who excelled at all of the 3 major sports & could have probably played in the pro ranks in any of them, chose baseball over basketball or football... u wanna tell me he wasn't a superior athlete? Bo Jackson, another phenomenal athlete who excelled at the game of baseball during his era... Rickey Henderson, Ty Cobb, Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, Alex Rodriguez, Albert Pujols, Mickey Mantle, Derek Jeter, Roberto Alomar, Mariano Rivera, the list of great athletes in baseball over the years goes on & on... & yes, even though u may not think of Babe Ruth as an athlete, he was probably 1 of the greatest athletes of alltime in pro sports cuz not only was he able to dominate the game of baseball w/his natural hitting ability, but was also a dominant pitcher in his early years & set tons of records... u don't do that in any sport unless u possess athletic ability... this is completely different than when we talk about purely skills based "sports" like bowling, billiards & to a lesser extent golf (tho u do need to possess athletic ability to drive the ball a long distance but that's still much more of a skills based sport)

when i refer to skill, i'm talking about the learned aspects of the game... adjusting of strategy, practicing footwork on defense, getting better jumps off 1st base when stealing a base, adjusting your pitching motion to fine tune your location & motion on your pitches, stuff like that... that stuff can be practiced & learned through coaching... but you cannot coach raw talent or physical ability... u either have it or you don't... that's why i think baseball encompasses both aspects of athleticism & skill equally which makes it quite unique among other sports out there that rely more heavily on the physical aspect only & less on the mental.


We all you saying is perfectly right - baseball is an American tradition. It is more that sport; it is a part of American culture.
For people like me who leave in US less those 20 years this game means nothing. It is boring, flawless, and "athletes" looks fat and lazy.
I understand with my mind that this is not true and they really possess some unique skills (which I am unable to understands and appreciate).
But I cannot take this game seriously as a sport.
Same goes for wrestling... This is another cultural thing. Probably in Russia people like Circus show in same way.
These guys are talented clowns of sort.
Football is another American phenomenon. Why these guys are trying to make each other handicapped as fast as possible? Make no sense to me.
But millions in US are doing crazy about this game (essentially modified and simplified British Rugby).

Actually why it called football? And why Rugby is so stripped from original great game in US?
So all in all it’s all cultural things.









[Edited by - arkrud on 12-24-2008 11:02 AM]

[Edited by - arkrud on 12-24-2008 11:03 AM]
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
TMS
Posts: 60684
Alba Posts: 617
Joined: 5/11/2004
Member: #674
USA
12/24/2008  11:14 AM
arkrud, that's exactly how i feel about soccer (or "football" to you Euros)... it bores the crap outta me just like hockey does... doesn't mean i don't consider those players to be athletes tho... it takes tremendous conditioning & athletic ability to excel at both sports.

while we're at it we mine as well throw in ultimate fighting, downhill skiing & other extreme sports into the mix... all of them are sports if u ask me cuz all of them take physical conditioning & ability to be good at it.

btw, i have zero idea what a "pasttime" is supposed to mean... what is that, like a hobby or something like knitting?

[Edited by - TMS on 12-24-2008 08:15 AM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
JrZyHuStLa
Posts: 25677
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 1/5/2007
Member: #1241
12/24/2008  11:36 AM
Baseball hands down.

No team represents its city and heritage the way the New York Yankees represent New York tradition.

The Knicks, not so much. Of course you're going to have a bunch of people on a Knicks forum tell you that NYC is a hoops town, LOL.

This is a no brainer. The NBA isn't what it used to be during the Jordan days, its gotten boring imo.
djsunyc
Posts: 44929
Alba Posts: 42
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #536
12/24/2008  3:57 PM
the great thing about baseball is that there are no guarantees. yanks spend $200 mil but didn't make the postseason with top notch talent. this season, the yanks signed elite players but again, no guarantee they make the postseason.

basketball - EIGHT teams make the postseason in each conference...and if you have the best talent, you will get to the finals. no questions asked.
kam77
Posts: 27664
Alba Posts: 25
Joined: 3/17/2004
Member: #634
12/24/2008  4:01 PM
Who is the last baseball player to endorse anything on the level of what LeBron endorses?
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
djsunyc
Posts: 44929
Alba Posts: 42
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #536
12/24/2008  4:02 PM
Posted by kam77:

Who is the last baseball player to endorse anything on the level of what LeBron endorses?

which sports franchise is recognized worldwide by their logo?
Page 2 of 4 ‹ Previous 1  2  3  4 Next ›
« Reply To Topic
THE NY sports debate
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy