I'm going to bet that the people who use numbers to show that those Lakers teams didn't play defense, never really saw them play.

And Phil Jackson never said anything of the sort about D'Antoni's style. But he did bring up a well founded concern about it not being able to win championships.

They may not have been stoppers, but they were solid defensively. That should be our goal for the 2010 team.

We aren't contenders yet but the defense the Knicks have been playing lately is as solid as it has been since the Van Gundy days.

uh..what? uptown?

Posted by Uptown:

Posted by holfresh:


One thing has been proven so far is this league, you are not winning without playing defense, even if Phil Jackson says it...

First of all, its all about when you get the stops. Thats kind of what the Lakers and Celts did in the 80's. Speaking of the Lakers take a look at these stats and tell me they were a defensive Juggernout.

1988 world champion Lakers

Defensive FG% 48%
Pts per game against 108

1989 world champion Lakers

Defensive FG% 47%
Pts per game against 107

1988 Celtics

Defensive FG% 48%
Pts per game against 108

1887 Celtics

Defensive FG% 46%
Pts per game against 106

Okay Holfresh....come with the excuses...BTW, I have some of the Laker/Celts game on tape and I still watch them to this day. No way were they big time defensive teams.

[Edited by - uptown on 12-17-2008 10:35 AM]

[Edited by - uptown on 12-17-2008 10:35 AM]

Well the game has changed hasn't it...Back then, those numbers you posted were league wide averages...104/105 pts per game were league averages...holding a team to 48% FG was the league average are well...It's not until the Knicks, Detroit, Chicago, Charlotte started changing the game with their emphasis on defense...But relatively speaking, those teams has some decent defenders..

That coupled with having the best Center(Kareem), best point guard(Magic),One of the better small forwards(Worthy), with all other position players playing defense and rebounding and you will win some games...But that said, playoff basketball comes down to possessions and stops...Thats what made the showtime Lakers and Boston great..Those were two of the best halfcourt execution teams that I have ever seen play...They weren't the best defensive team but Dennis Johnson and Ainge will get those steals and stops to change the game when you needed them...I can go on about this, but if I have to, you don't and won't get it...

Posted by Uptown:

Posted by islesfan:

I'm going to bet that the people who use numbers to show that those Lakers teams didn't play defense, never really saw them play.

And Phil Jackson never said anything of the sort about D'Antoni's style. But he did bring up a well founded concern about it not being able to win championships.

First, Instead of saying people, why not just say my name.

Second, you would lose your house, your pot to piss in and the clothes on your back if you bet I never saw them play. Not only dis I see them back in the 80's but I still watch the tapes to this day of the classic Lakers vs Celtics series' and then some.



[Edited by - Uptown on 12-17-2008 11:51 AM]

Then please explain why you think that those numbers prove that those Lakers teams weren't a very good defensive team.

What exactly did you see when you say those Lakers teams play?

I'm not as smart as Jim Calhoun or Larry Brown for that matter but I have seen my fair share of NBA games and this excerpt from Herb Brown's book about Larry Brown "Let's talk Defense" I believe to be true...

-How many times have you heard the old adage that "defense wins championships"? While it is true that one can't teach things like height, talent, or heart, sound defensive play can and is taught to great success at all competitive levels. Author Herb Brown of the Detroit Pistons preaches that defense is a state of mind - the great equalizer. If a team is prepared and committed to playing defense each time it hits the floor, Coach Brown believes it has an opportunity to win any game, especially if each player has dedicated himself to collectively stopping their opponent. Whether or not that opponent is more physically talented, if you can limit their ability to score, you will be in a position to win. Let's Talk Defense distills forty years of coaching experience into one handy volume. Beginning with the basis that effort is the major prerequisite for playing defense successfully, Coach Brown contends that a defensive mindset must be a constant if you hope to be able to build a championship caliber team. Effort, along with determination, preparedness and proper execution must be there every night to truly give your team a chance to win when your shots aren't falling and your team is struggling to score.

I will always believe it is easier to stop/limit a team from scoring than to outscore them, but that's just me...

Posted by Bippity10:

Are people really watching the Knicks games right now and saying that the team is not working hard on defense? They are struggling defensively because they are undersized and overmatched at some positions but clearly they are busting their bizzalls on defense. There are fewer and fewer dunks and uncontested shots and they are actually hammering guys that have easy shots. They all appear to be working hard. The defensive flaws of this team appear to be more about the player shortcomings than they do the coaching staff IMO.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 17-12-2008 12:53 PM]

Not at all. I think they're definitely trying and I like their effort. But they lack the fundamentals of good team defense. That falls on the coaching staff.

They also lack the fundamentals of a half court offense.

Posted by holfresh:

I'm not as smart as Jim Calhoun or Larry Brown for that matter but I have seen my fair share of NBA games and this excerpt from Herb Brown's book about Larry Brown "Let's talk Defense" I believe to be true...

-How many times have you heard the old adage that "defense wins championships"? While it is true that one can't teach things like height, talent, or heart, sound defensive play can and is taught to great success at all competitive levels. Author Herb Brown of the Detroit Pistons preaches that defense is a state of mind - the great equalizer. If a team is prepared and committed to playing defense each time it hits the floor, Coach Brown believes it has an opportunity to win any game, especially if each player has dedicated himself to collectively stopping their opponent. Whether or not that opponent is more physically talented, if you can limit their ability to score, you will be in a position to win. Let's Talk Defense distills forty years of coaching experience into one handy volume. Beginning with the basis that effort is the major prerequisite for playing defense successfully, Coach Brown contends that a defensive mindset must be a constant if you hope to be able to build a championship caliber team. Effort, along with determination, preparedness and proper execution must be there every night to truly give your team a chance to win when your shots aren't falling and your team is struggling to score.

I will always believe it is easier to stop/limit a team from scoring than to outscore them, but that's just me...

People don't have to believe Brown. Just look at every NBA Champion for the last 30 years and how they all played defense. D'Antoni's Suns teams never came close to that level defensively. It's not a coincidence.

The argument is more or less about philosophy...Whether or not this style can win a Championship...It tough doing both over the course of a season...Playing defense and running this uptempo offense for 82 games...

Posted by Bippity10:

It seems like we are having 2 different arguments. It is obvious to all that you need to play defense to win a title. So the question is, does D'Antoni preach it. So far, I'm not seeing much that says he isn't. The team is clearly hustling on D. They also clearly are overmatched at many positions and are not a great defensive team because of it. But we all knew that coming into that season.

I guess your opinion on Mike stems from how you feel about his Phoenix days. If you think they lost because they didn't play D, then you have no faith that he can win here. If you think they would have won without the suspensions then you think he can win here.

Personally I think you can win with any style. If Walsh signs Bosh and Lebron and fills the team in with great role players guess what, D'antoni can win a title just like anyone else. It's all about the players.

There are 2 different arguments. Playing D and playing D well are two different things. The team is definitely trying and D'Antoni just might be prodding them to play defense but it's not comparable to teams that are strong fundamentally on defense and put in the effort.

Prodding 5 players to play defense isn't the same as teaching 5 guys to play defense together and prodding them to do it.

Posted by islesfan:

Not at all. I think they're definitely trying and I like their effort. But they lack the fundamentals of good team defense. That falls on the coaching staff.

They also lack the fundamentals of a half court offense.

1) Are they playing better D than last year?

2) If so, how could they possibly have improved on D under a coach who doesn't care about defense?

I don't think you take back-to-back games, against the Suns and the Lakers, on the road, to the final possession if you can't play a lick of defense. Both those teams are still composed of premiere offensive talents. A bad defensive team gets eaten alive and blown out in back-to-back games against PHX and LAL. I'm not saying we're a good defensive team. But if we were bad last year, then we are mediocre this year. Once we can start matching up size-wise, we'll improve from mediocre to good. Will we ever be great? Who knows? But I agree with Bip that it will depend more on personnel than coach. Anyone notice how our D has improved with the departure of Crawford?