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this team is so unorganized, so poorly coached with mosh posh talent
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OasisBU
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10/16/2003  8:45 AM
Posted by knickgeek:
Posted by dodger78:

tkf i really think thats a good point!
With our veterans playing like crap and having NO upside at all!
Why not let our rookies have some playing time! At least they have a chance to get better and they got a reason for having some bad games!

This is an argument for a whole season of Garbage Time. I'd like to see the Knicks do a better job of developing young players, but we have a whole new team this season. Let's see how they do in the regular season before we throw in the towel.

[Edited by - knickgeek on 10/16/2003 08:37:41]

Isnt that what we did last year? New coach (not really but he claimed the season before didnt count), new players (not really but the season before didnt count according to Chaney). Didnt we play all the vets up until the end? Taking away minutes where Williams could have been learning and growing so this year we would be at least a little better off? Hmmmmmm.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
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OasisBU
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10/16/2003  8:50 AM
Posted by playa2:

Yea you guys are real GM material, you don't ruin a young man's 18 yr olds(Lampe) confidence by putting him in games against veteran ball players in the Worlds Most Famous Arena in reg season game unless he has the ability of having immediate impact, especially when your (BOSS) wants to win now. Justifying playing Lampe to plz a few fans who have their own agenda of entertainment is ludacrious. How many 18 yr old European's get run in the nba?

[Edited by - playa2 on 10/16/2003 07:24:02]

Playa, you sound like you have a hangover from the mid to late 90's...last time I checked the worlds most famous arena was filled with 2 losing franchises, terrible ownership - fans supporting other teams, and the only people winning on that floor are the visiting teams. The Garden is a great place, but it is filled with garbage right now - I dont think it will harm Lampe's psyche to play in such an environment if the team is committed to making him a better player and providing a proper supporting cast...

No more excuses, no more patch fixes, get this team re-organized and straightened out. They made changes, and this season we will see if they are the right ones - but you of all people should understand the reservations Knicks fans have about our current Coach, GM, Owner, and Squad.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
UKDad
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10/16/2003  10:03 AM
An - aside to all this. Why is Travis Knight getting minutes now? Is this a case of trying to hype him for a trade? I would sit him and let sweet, williams and lampe play significant minutes. Now is the time to give them some NBA experience, cause as everyone knows Chaney will be playing vets in the season.
The Old Man of UK...
playa2
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10/16/2003  10:24 AM
You can't sit eisley, spoon, and anderson and knight with the money they make. You guys talk as fans not businesssmen. Never said it was the right thing to do, but it's business 1st at MSG. Dolan want's wins not losses this is the only reason why layden and chaney are not gonna play youngbloods.

[Edited by - playa2 on 10/16/2003 10:25:31]
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
DefAndReb
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10/16/2003  10:47 AM
This idea of "forget playoffs" is ridiculous. How do you plan to make money? Dolan wants playoffs. The ticket money, even for a first round and out team, is substantial - as is the NBA money that goes to playoff teams. Dolan wants playoffs, that's his measure of Layden's success. The only way Layden gets fired is if the team does NOT make the playoffs.

Wake up to the realities of the sports business. It isn't about winning, per se. It's about profit. Donald Sterling's team has been to the playoffs once in the last ten years, but his team makes money, because he refuses to pay his players (until this year, of course - but he will change that tune if it doesn't produce a wider profit margin). Think he's sorry?! Think again, he's rich, rolling in cash. That's what Dolan wants.

Play the rookies? Unless their names are Yao, Lebron, or Carmelo, or unless Lampe or Sweetney become ROY material overnight, they'll get 10-15 a night. Dolan wants that 8th seed. He doesn't want to risk not getting to the playoffs for a third season by leaving it up to the rookies, espceially rookies with no marketing value.

1) Pleasant corporate work environment (no arguing or emotions)
2) Playoff spot
3) Ticket sales

Those are the Dolan priorities. To expect something different requires new ownership. Also, when Layden goes, don't expect a better GM to replace him. Dolan wants "nice guys", not go-getters.

What you guys would do is based on having love for the Knicks and the game of basketball, and of course winning a championship. Think Dolan shares those feelings? Hah!
playa2
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10/16/2003  11:16 AM
Thank You
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
OasisBU
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10/16/2003  11:41 AM
You know what generates ticket/merchandise sales more then anything? Winning. You know what happens the further you go in the playoffs? You make more money. You know what happens if you win the championship? You gain more fans, generate more ticket revenue, and what does that mean? YOU MAKE MORE MONEY. Success breeds revenue. You dont have to spend 90 million to win a championship...ask the Spurs. Now if its all about making money, why does NY have a 90 million dollar payroll, a losing team, falling ticket revenue, and a dwindling fan base? To me that doesnt sound like Dolan is all about the bottom line. Even if he is, there is still a ton of mismanagement in this organization.

[Edited by - OasisBU on 10/16/2003 11:43:23]
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
playa2
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10/16/2003  12:03 PM
You are stating the obvious about mismanagement, but this is where we are. As a fan you can't change who runs the team .
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
DefAndReb
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10/16/2003  12:09 PM
It's not that you guys are wrong to want these things. We all want the Knicks to be the best team in the league, not the highest-paid and weakest achievers they are today. It's just that some of you act surprised when rookies aren't played, Spree gets traded for KVH, or Layden/Chaney get extensions. You seem genuinely shocked that Eisley gets minutes over Frank or that we don't dump contracts or give up the season to develop young talent. I'm just stating what is apparent.

Those things are incompatible with Dolan's directive. He tells his employees, Mills and Layden, what he wants, and they do what they can within those boundaries, and they pass on those orders to Chaney, who does what he can within those boundaries. Sure, those guys are culpable, too, but if Chaney benched the high-paid guys and played rookies, he'd be fired immediately. If Layden bought out a bunch of contracts and traded for young, raw guys, that would get him the pink slip, too. Dolan wants playoff money, he even says so publicly, that making the playoffs is his goal, not a championship. He knows he will not put together a championship team, because that takes higher risks with betting on who will be the next superstar, and he doesn't want to be like the Bulls of the last few years, who gambled themselves into the basement.

If you're thinking "But we stink anyway, and we have the highest payroll, what's the difference?!" Well, you'd be right, but do you think Dolan is smart enough or humble enough to admit he is wrong or incompentent?! Think Layden or Chaney would dare tell him he is wrong?!

Nothing changes until Dolan sells the team. Keep talking about what you would like to see happen, but never expect it. If Cablevision's team is ever any good at all, it will be in spite of ownership, not because of it.
DefAndReb
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10/16/2003  12:24 PM
Posted by OasisBU:

You know what generates ticket/merchandise sales more then anything? Winning. You know what happens the further you go in the playoffs? You make more money. You know what happens if you win the championship? You gain more fans, generate more ticket revenue, and what does that mean? YOU MAKE MORE MONEY. Success breeds revenue. You dont have to spend 90 million to win a championship...ask the Spurs. Now if its all about making money, why does NY have a 90 million dollar payroll, a losing team, falling ticket revenue, and a dwindling fan base? To me that doesnt sound like Dolan is all about the bottom line. Even if he is, there is still a ton of mismanagement in this organization.

[Edited by - OasisBU on 10/16/2003 11:43:23]

You're right, but I'm not saying Dolan is _all_ about the bottom line, else he wouldn't have signed off on Houston, Spoon, Eisley, Knight or Anderson. He is about "playing it safe". He would rather have a great shot at getting the 6-8th spot than taking the necessary risks to get a 1-4th spot, because he considers playoffs to be what the fans want, because that's what the Knicks did all those years with Ewing. They made big money, without getting a championship.

Dolan operates the way Hollywood operates after the 70's. Better to be average and make consistent money than try to make something great to be enjoyed for years to come, even though the average stuff usually costs more to make than the great stuff. There are exceptions to this, of course. Sometimes you CAN buy the best team, sometimes you get a flop (like the Knicks).

If Dolan hasn't given Layden a greenlight to rebuild by now, why would he start? Because this idiot truly believes that NY fans won't pay to see rookies, and that playoffs is just as good as a championship, because you still make playoff money.
jazz74
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10/16/2003  12:34 PM
look, i admit. the last post i did was because of emotion. i, like others, are frustrated with the garbage being displayed in preseason. i mean, preseason is not a big deal. i mean, the bulls lost all but one of their preseason games in 96 and won a championship. but the fact that they are lethargic and delirious is the most disturbing thing. it tells me how committed our players are in winning being rusty and dull. maybe they are tuning chaney out, which is what van horn said. make no mistake about it,this is a good eastern team. they have the size and strength to cause problems with other teams. so if this team flops, it will be chaney's fault. no excuses this season. we will see in a month if it is time to panic or just a fluke.
tkf
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10/16/2003  1:02 PM
Posted by dodger78:

Oh come on Playa do you really think that a guy like Lampe, who has been away from home and has played in numerous countries throughout europe at this YOUNG age, just following this dream of him to become a player in the nba. does break when he goes up against vets who are years ahead of him and might make him look bad on numerous occasions! nope man this kid would benefit from that pressure the same way Pau Gasol, Tony Parker or Dirk Nowitzki did!!!
But id admit, that youd need the right coaching for that!

Plus i dont think that those kids in the progress of the season would produce less than most of our veteran "players"! Sure it would get us a little worse record but even a guy like Laydon must see the benefit for the franchise in the futur! so this is not about pleasing some fans!!!

Next thing is that IF everbody is healthy on our roster, well have quiet good season and some of our vets wont get major minutes anyway!
so lets see how things develope! but before i play Knight i play Lampe!!!!!!!!!!

dodger, excellent post, only a a fool would look at this team and say that we would be forfeting games by playing Lampe and sweetney more minutes than spoon, knight, othella and anderson. The key is to let these young guys learn, I mean you will still have Houston and Hopefully dice out on the floor at the same time. Lets be real, this team is Dice, Houston and KVH,and KT the rest of the guys are support staff, and I much rather have the rookies out there than Anderson, spoon , knight and eisley... This is not a legitimate playoff team if we are depending on those scrubs to make a difference we are in trouble..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
knickgeek
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10/16/2003  1:42 PM
I don't think there is anything unique in the Knicks organization's approach. I don't think any franchise is going to sit Dice, Van Horn, Houston, KT and Ward to play Vranes,Sweetney, Lampe,Carroll and Williams. And if teams don't make money they're out of business.

Why do you think we've been losing all preseason? Has Houston played? Has Dice? Mutombo has been with us, what two games? This is a time when you can play your less experienced guys and not hurt your record - see what they can do. In the games I've seen, I see Vranes out there. Do you really think Vranes is ready to play in the NBA?

To use the Knicks' preseason record as an argument to play the young guys more in the regular season is illogical. Unless you buy the doublespeak that "losing is winning".


[Edited by - knickgeek on 10/16/2003 13:46:23]
GoNyGoNyGo
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10/16/2003  1:51 PM
Jazz - I agree with your last post. It is not the record is the level of play. Is it possible they all know Chaney is a joke and they are already tuning him out? I really hope that is not true. We will know in a month what the real deal is. This team with this talent is at least 500 team in the East. Assuming Mutombo is not dead and Dice does not play until December. They at least have a C in there that can alter shots and get rebounds. If NY's D does not improve WE WILL ALL KNOW IT IS COACHING!!!

I think KVH will play Ok this year. I am hoping for 18/8 from him on CONSISTENT basis.
tkf
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10/16/2003  3:09 PM
Posted by knickgeek:

I don't think there is anything unique in the Knicks organization's approach. I don't think any franchise is going to sit Dice, Van Horn, Houston, KT and Ward to play Vranes,Sweetney, Lampe,Carroll and Williams. And if teams don't make money they're out of business.

Why do you think we've been losing all preseason? Has Houston played? Has Dice? Mutombo has been with us, what two games? This is a time when you can play your less experienced guys and not hurt your record - see what they can do. In the games I've seen, I see Vranes out there. Do you really think Vranes is ready to play in the NBA?

To use the Knicks' preseason record as an argument to play the young guys more in the regular season is illogical. Unless you buy the doublespeak that "losing is winning".


[Edited by - knickgeek on 10/16/2003 13:46:23]

I think you missed the point, No one wants to sit Houston and Dice for Vranes, come on man, those are our best players, but what we want to do is sit the marginally talented overpaid scrubs we have and play sweetney and Lampe, that is what other organizations who have a firm grasp and understanding of their talent level do...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
OasisBU
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10/16/2003  3:33 PM
Well said tkf...exactly. I dont think anyone on this board wants to see Houston, Dyess, KVH or KT purposely benched for our rookies to get 30 a game. They want to see Shanderson, Eisly, Othella, and Spoon riding the pine though when minutes free up. I dont see anything wrong with that - its not like these guys are playmakers. Williams should have gotten 15 a game last year to get him ready...he didnt get anything. These guys need minutes to get better - they wont just become superstars sitting on the sidelines. At the same time nobody is expecting them to lead NY to the playoffs - thats what H20 and co are here to do. The rookies are just here to help and they should be put in a position to do so.

Anyway, i'm glad to see this board getting more debates going on - it gives me something to look forward to when I am bored at work.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
playa2
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10/16/2003  3:44 PM
I would like to see Frank play more too, but for some reason those old vets (scrubs) as you call them led the league in 3 pt shooting last yr. Isn't that what kept us in games and made us almost beat out the bucks for 8th spot? If spree didn't get jiggy with it on his yacht before training camp and miss those first 10 or so games we would have been in the playoffs. Houston, Spree, eisley ward, anderson those were the guys in that 3 pt catergory with KT in the post. lol Now KVH is a better shooter Deke helps in the paint to me that spells playoffs. And until we change owners as knicks fans this is what we have.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
tkf
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10/16/2003  3:51 PM
Posted by OasisBU:

Well said tkf...exactly. I dont think anyone on this board wants to see Houston, Dyess, KVH or KT purposely benched for our rookies to get 30 a game. They want to see Shanderson, Eisly, Othella, and Spoon riding the pine though when minutes free up. I dont see anything wrong with that - its not like these guys are playmakers. Williams should have gotten 15 a game last year to get him ready...he didnt get anything. These guys need minutes to get better - they wont just become superstars sitting on the sidelines. At the same time nobody is expecting them to lead NY to the playoffs - thats what H20 and co are here to do. The rookies are just here to help and they should be put in a position to do so.

Anyway, i'm glad to see this board getting more debates going on - it gives me something to look forward to when I am bored at work.

It is very frustrating to watch the knicks trot out Eisley and anderson and then bring in spoon, I mean that is not even a good rec league team. Those guys are not going to make the knicks an ounce better, so why not play the rookies, If you don't think that sweetney and Lampe can at least contribute what knight and spoon does, then our future is in trouble.....

I say Give F. will.and sweetney about 15-17 MPG and give Lampe starting off about 10-15 MPG, there has to be a way to fit these guys in. Good coaches do that... I find it hard to believe that Lampe and the rest can do worse than Anderson dribbling the ball off his foot or hitting the side of the backboard, or spoon and his comedy of turnovers and having his shot swatted back in his face, come on, I know fans don't want to see that and we all know that will not get the knicks into the playoffs!!!!!!!!!
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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10/16/2003  3:55 PM
Posted by playa2:

I would like to see Frank play more too, but for some reason those old vets (scrubs) as you call them led the league in 3 pt shooting last yr. Isn't that what kept us in games and made us almost beat out the bucks for 8th spot? If spree didn't get jiggy with it on his yacht before training camp and miss those first 10 or so games we would have been in the playoffs. Houston, Spree, eisley ward, anderson those were the guys in that 3 pt catergory with KT in the post. lol Now KVH is a better shooter Deke helps in the paint to me that spells playoffs. And until we change owners as knicks fans this is what we have.

playa, you are going to make me come up to buffalo to whip your azz... stop it man, first you say spree is a cancer, now the knicks could have made the playoffs had spree not gotten hurt... What is it man? huh? Cancer or necessity?

And leading the league in 3pt shooting is garbage, a useless stat, all it showed is that we had no inside game and we hoisted up a bunch of jumpers... You are proud of that?
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
playa2
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10/16/2003  4:03 PM
I support the youth movement and understand what you are saying. But looky here partna rookies 22-23 years old can make impact by seasons end if they got game. 18 yr olds don't! I don't see lampe as a guy who can compete with grown men. If you have an 18 year old that played only in a junior league, played a perimeter position or game, why try and teach him to play the post in the NBA against the worlds biggest and baddest PF and Centers in the world. Lampe is two slow likely to play SF, and not enough power to play PF just yet, CMON MAN LETS BE REAL I'M TALKING REGULAR SEASON PLAY.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
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this team is so unorganized, so poorly coached with mosh posh talent
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