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Dose of Reality: 2010 is a myth- this franchis is FIVE years away from being put on the right path
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GKFv2
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11/4/2008  2:47 PM
Franco can see the future! What else do you have for us Ms. Cleo? Is Obama going to win?
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
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EwingsGlass
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11/4/2008  2:48 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by oohah:
It took the Spurs a long time with both David Robinson and Tim Duncan before they looked like contenders. I would say that you keep adding pieces.

I'm pretty sure Duncan won a championship by his second or third year.

oohah

They were awesome the minute Tim Duncan came on the team. They won nearly 60 his first year and the championship the next--pretty much being frugal as a team the whole time.

I wasn't clear with my point. The Spurs did do well once getting Duncan, beating our Knicks in '99, but so much of that was a work in progress and they had a player to build around. Once they added Duncan, they weren't immediate contenders, they won their first championship in their second season. But my point was that you need a player to build around. I think superstar FAs realize this and want to be the player built around
You know I gonna spin wit it
oohah
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11/4/2008  2:55 PM
Posted by Anji:

I don remember the Spurs having to deal with Dennis Rodman for two years...............

Right, and during most of that time he was reasonably well behaved and averaged 17 rebounds per game: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rodmade01.html

And when he acted up they took care of it in the right way.

Model Franchise.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 04-11-2008 2:57 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
eViL
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11/4/2008  3:39 PM
Posted by oohah:

The Spurs are the blueprint.

David Robinson was an NBA superstar in his prime when he suffered a very early season ending injury. This put him out and put his team in the bottom of the standings. Luckily for them, they won the lottery, leapfrogged in front of Boston to grab a once in a generation type talent to pair up with their returning healthy superstar. Man, I can't believe every team doesn't follow that blueprint.
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Bonn1997
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11/4/2008  4:20 PM
Posted by SlimPack:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by SupremeCommander:

Who cares about Tim Duncan? He's a once-in-a-lifetime talent. If that's we're pinning our hopes on that, then there's going to be a lot of heartache around here for a long, long time.

[Edited by - supremecommander on 11-04-2008 11:42 AM]

no- Duncan, MJ, LeBron, KG are franchise type talents that come along every draft- its an issue of being in a position to be able to draft them.

No they don't.

Maybe closer to every other year.
Anji
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11/4/2008  4:28 PM
Posted by JrZyHuStLa:
Posted by oohah:
Posted by BRIGGS:

They were awesome the minute Tim Duncan came on the team. They won nearly 60 his first year and the championship the next--pretty much being frugal as a team the whole time.

The Spurs are the blueprint. And when will you ever see the drama that you see here there? Never. I'm pretty sure if the Spurs had a malcontent they wanted to get rid of, he never would have seen training camp -->problem solved? No, problem never happens.

oohah

Exactly. That's what a good management does, they sort out these nooks and crannies before the regular season, not panic only 3 games into the season. Popovich and Buford would've never allowed this Marbury fiasco to poison a season as young as this one. This leads me to believe that Walsh was slacking all summer.

This is what separates championship teams from lousy teams like the New York Knicks. Class and responsibility has been a trait of the San Antonio Spurs for a very long time now, as opposed to this pathetic roster and management. There is no sense of responsibility whatsoever.
Ugh............... They had a guy named Rodman. Anybody remember him flipping out and only playing like 40 games one year because the spurs got tired of his act!!!! I think the knicks are actually doing what the spurs would do(if they some how had Marbury I suppose).


What separates us from them right now is David Robinson broken leg and the knicks winning the lottery. Everything seems to smell like roses once you get a guy like that.


[Edited by - Anji on 11-04-2008 4:30 PM]
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
oohah
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11/4/2008  4:48 PM
Ugh............... They had a guy named Rodman. Anybody remember him flipping out and only playing like 40 games one year because the spurs got tired of his act!!!! I think the knicks are actually doing what the spurs would do(if they some how had Marbury I suppose).

yeah I agree with you Anji, the Spurs have had a lot of luck.

However, they dealt with their Rodman trouble waaaay better than the Knicks have handled their troubles. Is that really in question?

And Rodman was actually great when he was flipping out. Is that really in question?

oohah
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Pharzeone
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11/4/2008  5:02 PM
Posted by oohah:
Ugh............... They had a guy named Rodman. Anybody remember him flipping out and only playing like 40 games one year because the spurs got tired of his act!!!! I think the knicks are actually doing what the spurs would do(if they some how had Marbury I suppose).

yeah I agree with you Anji, the Spurs have had a lot of luck.

However, they dealt with their Rodman trouble waaaay better than the Knicks have handled their troubles. Is that really in question?

And Rodman was actually great when he was flipping out. Is that really in question?

oohah

Didn't those Rodman Spurs teams still go the playoffs? Why is anyone talking about the Spurs. The Knicks are nothing like how the Spurs were and are. That team had one of the 50 greatest players already on their roster and added another future HOF player via the draft and had crafty veterans still in their prime. The Knicks best player is crazy and inactive. His replacement is a career backup. And their draft pick has the back of a sixty old man. Much like Donnie and Mike, not even on the same page.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Cookdcokehop
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11/4/2008  5:02 PM
Fuck Lebron. Build through the draft and find the new Lebron. If I was the Knicks I would be stocking up so many first rounders right now.
TMS
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11/4/2008  5:15 PM
Posted by Cookdcokehop:

Fuck Lebron. Build through the draft and find the new Lebron. If I was the Knicks I would be stocking up so many first rounders right now.

if we dump contracts now & amass some picks we can achieve both ends... or at least make a sincere attempt at getting there... doing nothing accomplishes exactly that... nothing.
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Markji
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11/4/2008  6:06 PM
Detroit now is in the best position to sign a franchise FA in 2010. Brilliant trade with Denver. They will be well under the cap. And they keep making the playoffs every year and even winning a championship. Detroit had 2 HOF guards. And 1 of them is a potential HOF GM. Dumars. Unfortunately, we got the other one.
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
Cookdcokehop
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11/4/2008  6:42 PM
Posted by Markji:

Detroit now is in the best position to sign a franchise FA in 2010. Brilliant trade with Denver. They will be well under the cap. And they keep making the playoffs every year and even winning a championship. Detroit had 2 HOF guards. And 1 of them is a potential HOF GM. Dumars. Unfortunately, we got the other one.

If we trade Zach and Curry we will be close to Detroit's payroll in 2010. If we can do that Lebron has to choose... does he want to play with Gallo, Chandler, Crawford & Jeffries or Stuckey, Amir Johnson, Maxiell, & Hamilton. Not a tough choice for a man that desires a championship.
TMS
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11/4/2008  7:04 PM
Posted by Cookdcokehop:
Posted by Markji:

Detroit now is in the best position to sign a franchise FA in 2010. Brilliant trade with Denver. They will be well under the cap. And they keep making the playoffs every year and even winning a championship. Detroit had 2 HOF guards. And 1 of them is a potential HOF GM. Dumars. Unfortunately, we got the other one.

If we trade Zach and Curry we will be close to Detroit's payroll in 2010. If we can do that Lebron has to choose... does he want to play with Gallo, Chandler, Crawford & Jeffries or Stuckey, Amir Johnson, Maxiell, & Hamilton. Not a tough choice for a man that desires a championship.

that's not really accurate... Amir Johnson's a FA in 2010 & w/Hamilton's new contract extension their cap figure in 2010 goes up to about $36-38 mil w/Prince, Hamilton, Stuckey, Maxiell & Afflalo, meaning they will only have enough to sign 1 bigname FA & 1 MLE guy... even if you add Lebron to that team u still don't have enough to win a championship cuz u have no frontcourt at all... their goal has to be to target Bosh instead, as David Aldridge pointed out already... it makes complete sense.

anyway, Lebron is not likely to want to go to DET, IMHO he'll either pick NY or stay in CLE... staying in CLE is the much more likely outcome but who knows... if we can somehow dump Zach & Curry's contracts, we will still have some talent leftover in Lee, Chandler, Gallo, Jamal & Nate along w/alot more cap space than DET will have, at least $14 mil more, which means we can realistically target 2 bigname FA's... u also have to figure in the 1st round pick we take this season which will undoubtedly be a much higher selection than DET will have.

u guys have to seriously take a careful look at just how much cap flexibility can help this franchise... it's not as cut & dry as hopeless a scenario to land a bigname as some of u wanna make it out to be, the problem is there is nothing being done right now to dump those contracts we need to dump for us to even have a chance to get there... u can't effect change unless u take the initiative & be proactive to attain it... look at how the country is so wrapped up in this election... they want change & everyone's being proactively seeking it... the same needs to be done here w/this Knicks franchise... we can't just keep sitting on our hands & doing nothing hoping to land the big prize by some miracle... we gotta make sweeping moves to position ourselves to have that opportunity.
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franco12
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11/4/2008  7:19 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by SlimPack:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by SupremeCommander:

Who cares about Tim Duncan? He's a once-in-a-lifetime talent. If that's we're pinning our hopes on that, then there's going to be a lot of heartache around here for a long, long time.

[Edited by - supremecommander on 11-04-2008 11:42 AM]

no- Duncan, MJ, LeBron, KG are franchise type talents that come along every draft- its an issue of being in a position to be able to draft them.

No they don't.

Maybe closer to every other year.

I'll take my chances on any of these players:

2008 Rose & Beasley
2007 Oden & Durant
2006 No One
2005 Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Bynum, Channing Frye
2004 Dwight Howard
2003 Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Anthony

Now- maybe they aren't MJ type players- they don't need to be, but the fact is, when you have one of these players, you often have one of the best players on the court most games, and you have something to build around.

I'd rather have the top pick in 2009 than the cap room to sign lebron.
TMS
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11/4/2008  7:24 PM
I'd rather have the top pick in 2009 than the cap room to sign lebron.

why not aim for both? dump our bad contracts using D Lee as a sweetener... take back garbage if u have to as long as they have short term contracts, maybe u can pilfer an extra pick in the process... having 2 picks in this upcoming draft could revive this team way faster than just waiting around for the next starphuch type trade to net us guys like Mike Redd, etc... that type of philosophy has gotten us absolutely nowhere... clear cap, draft intelligently, & hold out for the big fish prize in 2010... there's no reason at all why the Knicks can't aim towards achieving all those goals... the only problem is convincing Dolan of it.
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nysportsfan11
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11/4/2008  7:42 PM
Posted by TMS:
anyway, Lebron is not likely to want to go to DET, IMHO he'll either pick NY or stay in CLE... staying in CLE is the much more likely outcome but who knows... if we can somehow dump Zach & Curry's contracts, we will still have some talent leftover in Lee, Chandler, Gallo, Jamal & Nate along w/alot more cap space than DET will have, at least $14 mil more, which means we can realistically target 2 bigname FA's... u also have to figure in the 1st round pick we take this season which will undoubtedly be a much higher selection than DET will have.

LeBron wants to win multiple championships and wants to play for an organization he respects. Right now all the Knicks have is money and a big market. But LeBron's not going to want to come here if he's got to carry a franchise with less talent than Cleveland will have.

Don't underestimate Joe Dumars' reputation among players around the league or William Wesley's influence. Detroit's got just as much of a chance as Cleveland and the Knicks, with Dallas (who will also be targeting Bosh) and Chicago (with Wade as their #1 target) in the second tier.

Both Detroit and Cleveland will have enough space to sign 2 top free agents and don't have to worry about "if we can somehow dump x and y's contracts by then". You're not dumping Randolph or Curry without including Lee and/or Nate and/or Chandler and Gallo might not even be Kukoc let alone Pippen. Pray for Jennings or Donnie's going to be selling Madison Ave to LeBron not the roster.
McK1
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11/4/2008  7:48 PM
Posted by nysportsfan11:

Pray for Jennings.

the chance to draft him is the only thing the Steph drama has me looking forward to
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
TMS
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11/4/2008  8:10 PM
Posted by nysportsfan11:

Both Detroit and Cleveland will have enough space to sign 2 top free agents

DET will not have the cap space to sign 2 top free agents... if they're lucky enough to land a max guy like Lebron they won't have enough left over to land another bigname when u include the extension Rip Hamilton just signed along w/Tayshaun Prince's $11 million & the other guys who will have to round out the rest of the roster... Lebron ain't winnning no multiple championships w/Rip, Tayshaun & no frontcourt whatsoever, i don't care how much of a reputation Joe Dumars has... it's not like Donnie Walsh has no cred when it comes to making deals either.
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nysportsfan11
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11/4/2008  8:43 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by nysportsfan11:

Both Detroit and Cleveland will have enough space to sign 2 top free agents

DET will not have the cap space to sign 2 top free agents... if they're lucky enough to land a max guy like Lebron they won't have enough left over to land another bigname when u include the extension Rip Hamilton just signed along w/Tayshaun Prince's $11 million & the other guys who will have to round out the rest of the roster... Lebron ain't winnning no multiple championships w/Rip, Tayshaun & no frontcourt whatsoever, i don't care how much of a reputation Joe Dumars has... it's not like Donnie Walsh has no cred when it comes to making deals either.

I didn't include Prince in Detroit's longterm plans...and with good reason.
nyk4ever
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11/4/2008  8:47 PM
Posted by nysportsfan11:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by nysportsfan11:

Both Detroit and Cleveland will have enough space to sign 2 top free agents

DET will not have the cap space to sign 2 top free agents... if they're lucky enough to land a max guy like Lebron they won't have enough left over to land another bigname when u include the extension Rip Hamilton just signed along w/Tayshaun Prince's $11 million & the other guys who will have to round out the rest of the roster... Lebron ain't winnning no multiple championships w/Rip, Tayshaun & no frontcourt whatsoever, i don't care how much of a reputation Joe Dumars has... it's not like Donnie Walsh has no cred when it comes to making deals either.

I didn't include Prince in Detroit's longterm plans...and with good reason.

Where do you think he'll end up?
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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