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Laydog, Laydown, Laydum, Doldumb, Doldrum, and Dolomite..........
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Pike
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9/9/2003  3:47 PM
I don't think anybody would have predicted Riley would do so poorly with the money and control he has had in Miami... Major disappointment thus far, has tarnished his reputation, in my opinion.
AUTOADVERT
Vmart
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9/9/2003  6:26 PM
I don't think he has done that poorly. BUt certain thing out of his control like Zo who came up with a disease to his Kidney had a lot to do with his down fall. If Zo is healthy they make the playoffs and they don't miss much of a beat. But that really hurt Riley more than anything. When a franchise corner stone player goes out like that than you really can't blame Riley for something like that. If anything Riley has developed a new nucleus in a short anount of time. He has filled that team with players who have potential and can become stars. Butler, Wade and Odoms. That to me is the forming of one of the stronger team in the future.
Pike
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9/10/2003  11:27 AM
They might be stronger going forward with a core of good young players and Mourning's illness didn't help but, Riley can't hide behind it... I think he has done poorly and I'm willing to bet most in Miami would agree with me... not the least of which, Pat Riley.
Snowman
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Iceland
9/10/2003  1:40 PM
Very true PIKE my man !!! ( j.e.t.s ) ROFL.........LOL..
What does DICK CHANEY & DON CHANEY have in common ?? They both accidentally fell into a job they don't deserve & really suck at doing it !!!! Both need to be fired !!!
Nedyal1
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9/10/2003  3:30 PM
Mourning at the height of his powers would lose his mind, and Miami would fail. Riley can jack his players into a frenzy, but could not keep their heads on straight.
THE PROBLEM AT HAND MUST BE SOLVED WITH A HIGHER LEVEL OF THINKING THAN THAT IN WHICH IT WAS CREATED: ALBERT EINSTIEN
sebstar
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9/10/2003  10:45 PM
Nedyal 1 enough with the Scott Layden P.R campaign…we get your point, you are in love with the guy ( get medication for it) Enough with your admittedly well argued but logically impaired arguments that you are flooding the board with.

You keep slamming this “philosophy shift” down our throats like a Shawn Marion breakaway in some desperate attempt to shill for this regime .. First off “philosophy shift” and “results shift” are two entirely different matters.

Second, what “philosophy shift”?!? We trade our best player in a deal that had nothing to do with basketball and had everything to do with the Knicks sick little corporate agenda that places a heavy emphasis on everything that is white and having a direct pipeline to Utah. Layden then uses our #1 pick on an wildly undersized power forward who doesn’t possess an athletic bone in his body, but fear not for we hear “THAT HE IS A REALLY NICE GUY”…I am suffering from whiplash from this “philosophy shift”.

We havent seen Lampe or Sweetney play one second of ball against anything resembling NBA competition. And wasn’t Frank Williams scouting out property in whatever CBA city he was headed for after a disastrous NBA season just a couple of months ago? A couple of decent summer league performances and now he is Jason Kidd? Point is slow down on these guys. Milos is acting like he will do practically anything to avoid playing here. I know your lust for Layden demands it, but don’t be so quick to stamp their careers with any hall of fame stickers just yet.

And no, Knicks fans are not “out of line” for holding Layden to the bad trades he has made which have eaten away at this franchise like a cancer. Unless you call “out of line” holding someone accountable for the pathetic job they have done…Its not rehashing either, because his intellectually challenged deals are still impacting the team today….Eisely and the rest of the sorry lot are still on the team!

Really now, how are Knicks fans supposed to have any faith in Scott Layden? It is what Year 4 in the Layden regime and I cant think of one good move he has made!! Yet you could probably write a 500 page novel on all of the bad ones that he has decapitated the franchise with. I know, we are all supposed to pray at the Shrine of Layden because he appears to not have massively screwed up this years draft by trading all the picks for Jon Barry. Its called a track record, and you just cant wash away four years of incompetence with one *potentially* decent draft.

Any competent organization would have fired him years ago, but sadly Layden has fed off of the mediocre environment that the Dolan family not only accepts but seems to relish. That’s what makes me the most upset. Good basketball minds are out of a job while this lapdog gets to run NY in the ground and get paid millions in the process…

People have mistaken loyalty with blind obedience.

BTW, I’ll take one bad late first round pick over years of incompetence.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
Snowman
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9/11/2003  9:24 AM
what will your excuse be when we make the playoffs ???
What does DICK CHANEY & DON CHANEY have in common ?? They both accidentally fell into a job they don't deserve & really suck at doing it !!!! Both need to be fired !!!
Nedyal1
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9/11/2003  11:21 AM
Sebstar,

Its a process of improvement, and as a fan I want to find a sign of change. With 4 young players on the roster I find that different than in the past.

With no stupid trades last year to give up a future asset, I find that different than in the past. I find restraint in using the exemption for the last two years than waste it on the formentioned players.

You project the past into the future, but I see things as changing. IN sports you either sell winning or sell hope. I have hope. If Dolan wants to keep his GM on board to make changes, its his team to do so. I have laid out logical arguments for many of which you said in previous medicated rants or devout love for the Laydog.

I have suffered during the Scotty Sterling years, Sonny Werblin years, Donovans return (GM built knicks in late 1960's went to build expansion Buffalo franchise) and returned in 1975 and did a bad job, Al Bianchi, Dave Debussre, Willis Reed, and then Checkets. Checketts build win now teams, which his residue is well documented.

I don't dispute the bad moves of the past, they sucked for many reasons. I just don't think that firing Laydog would solve much going forward, if the team is operating with a different objective now.

Ultimatly, it will take a few years to sort this out.

If not, then ownership has choosen a bad model in which to operate under, and that is just unfortunate for the fan.

You need not question my personality or need for medical attention. Its just an opinion. The many rumors that initiate anger have proven fasle thus far. No Raef, No Bradley, No NVE, No Antwain Walker. Lampe got signed.

The Utah lilly white consipicy is not as you say. Shandon and Howard are both African American. Doleac is a very inexpensive and insignificant role player whom went to school there, and KVH from Calif, also went to school there. Rumors of Sean Bradley are just rumors, and remember the Mavs coveted Kurt Thomas, we are not shopping him. I think below the surface there are hard feelings spree was exiled. Especially for Kvh.

I respect your opinion and you make good argument. When taking a minority view to the evaluation of our GM, I expect opposition.

My hopes are in 2-3 years, which is a long time to go, I expect the young players and others not yet known to provide exciting times. We all desire a common goal of seeing the team win, and perhaps one day we can argue the finer points of positional play and whether to use a zone defense or not! Thats hoop talk I prefer.

THE PROBLEM AT HAND MUST BE SOLVED WITH A HIGHER LEVEL OF THINKING THAN THAT IN WHICH IT WAS CREATED: ALBERT EINSTIEN
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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9/11/2003  2:30 PM
Now Nedyal, all I was doing was point out what seemed to be a mistake in the years of the finals for the '95 run. If I were antangonizing you, beleieve me, there would be no need to question it. If anyone is getting touchy, it's you for being so hypersensitive to my having clarified a fact.

What Riley did and why (about the quest for power and the exit to Miami) could possibly be what you suggested, but the truth about that is only known to Riley himself.

When Sebstar called you out about the failed logic in some of your views and being a LayDown apologist (to sum it up), did you accuse him of "hating the team"? I too mentioned your lack of logical analysis and unwillingness to acknowledge the track record of those fools running this team, but stopped short of calling you a LayDown fan because I didn't want to attack you (even though it's obvious that Seb called that one right on the money).

I feel the way I do out of love for my team, and have said that to you and many others in this forum. Think what you want about how I view the team, but I will not stand around and write volumes about "forgetting the past" and "new philosophy" (and have holes repeatedly exposed in that argument in the process) just because it's NYK management who does it. I hold them accountable like any sensible fan would do. One does not have to be omniscient to know that, just logical. It's commmon sense.

So for the last time, I'll say to you and all the Scott LayDown fans out there: it's not about "hating" the team when someone disagrees with management decisions and when players are brought here that fans have good reason NOT to like.

I called it "blind optimism", Seb called it "blind obedience". Accusing someone of hating the team for having a less-than-positive or non-utopian opinion not only reeks of blindness, but ignorance.

Our loyalty can't be scrutinized by those who fail to see what's going on with this team.

BTW, excellent post, Seb.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
Nedyal1
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9/12/2003  9:06 AM
"Think what you want about how I view the team, but I will not stand around and write volumes about "forgetting the past" and "new philosophy"

Hardcore, don't worry about writing those volumes, thats my position.

"(and have holes repeatedly exposed in that argument in the process) just because it's NYK management who does it. I hold them accountable like any sensible fan would do. One does not have to be omniscient to know that, just logical. It's commmon sense."

Its subjective topic, and you need not defend your postion over and over again if I state mine. If I voice my opinion and you consistantly jump on it, then it becomes an argument. Im not sensitive, but its just not polite to not let any opinion you object to go unchallenged. If you cannot handle it, I'll just move on to another forum where contributions are not so intensily challenged. It cool to say you don't agree, and even challenge, but your very adament about your stance, which is by the way the obvious majority opinion.

I don't think we debate to win. This is hardly the intellectual forum to attempt that. Its the fooking knicks, not Middle Eastern Politics! I am trying to bring an objecive view. Read my stuff, I don't defend Laydogs past moves, I am not obsolving him of his history, I just don't think it makes sense to fire him regardless because of his contract, the owners objectives, and that he is not soley responsable for the teams demise. IT think there is a of blame to go around.

YOu take the emotional stance often heard. Your angry about this team and thus someone must pay for it! Ok, I don't agree, lets move on.

This is also a forum, I don't have a fact checker, and I don't try to be too ambitious if I am not sure on a date. You seem to revel on a potential missed fact and look for a hole to pounce on to. Let it go man, you seem to feel that the other readers will hold you in higher esteem by pointing out the mistakes of others, but when I see you do it to others my opinion is that your being a pain in the ass.

I also like the bail out of "we are just being "sensitive." When you challenge all my points, your just showing that you only care about your opinion and am really not digesting my point of view. Is that being sensitive? Not really, its just wasting my time, and why bother with a good discussion if the person your talking with is not even listening. Some people hear have good points that do not jive with yours, but they are worthwhile to listen to.

As always, I can expect your getting in that last word. Perhaps we are too alike in that regard.
THE PROBLEM AT HAND MUST BE SOLVED WITH A HIGHER LEVEL OF THINKING THAN THAT IN WHICH IT WAS CREATED: ALBERT EINSTIEN
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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9/12/2003  3:20 PM
Posted by Nedyal1:

"Think what you want about how I view the team, but I will not stand around and write volumes about "forgetting the past" and "new philosophy"

Hardcore, don't worry about writing those volumes, thats my position.
LOL Indeed it is...


"(and have holes repeatedly exposed in that argument in the process) just because it's NYK management who does it. I hold them accountable like any sensible fan would do. One does not have to be omniscient to know that, just logical. It's commmon sense."

Its subjective topic, and you need not defend your postion over and over again if I state mine.
Making a reference to a view stated in another thread is not a big deal. We all do it.

If I voice my opinion and you consistantly jump on it, then it becomes an argument.
No, not at all. It only becomes an argument when the level of the convo is lowered. As long as the exchange is not condescending or snotty, I will always keep it just as respectable.

Im not sensitive, but its just not polite to not let any opinion you object to go unchallenged.
It's what discussion forums are for.

If you cannot handle it, I'll just move on to another forum where contributions are not so intensily challenged.
No matter where u go, people say what's on their minds. Once again, that is one of the basic functions of forums. This isn't the Knicks front office, where "yes men" have the run of the place.

It cool to say you don't agree, and even challenge, but your very adament about your stance, which is by the way the obvious majority opinion.
When you say things like "I don't care about the past or whose fault it is" in here, folks are gonna come at you. Fans in this forum really care about this team.

I don't think we debate to win. This is hardly the intellectual forum to attempt that. Its the fooking knicks, not Middle Eastern Politics!
True, and logic can be applied to either discussion.

I am trying to bring an objecive view. Read my stuff, I don't defend Laydogs past moves, I am not obsolving him of his history, I just don't think it makes sense to fire him regardless because of his contract, the owners objectives, and that he is not soley responsable for the teams demise. IT think there is a of blame to go around.

I agree with the majority of that, but you made several comments that can only lead one to believe that you did excuse LayDown for all the past bad moves, like you were wiping the slate clean. You should know from what most postas say that that prolly won't wash in here. Some other boards, yeah. This one? It won't fly.

YOu take the emotional stance often heard. Your angry about this team and thus someone must pay for it! Ok, I don't agree, lets move on.
You again confuse emotion with logic. This is why I repeatedly break down the reasoning to you. If you can grasp that, then moving on would happen naturally.


This is also a forum, I don't have a fact checker, and I don't try to be too ambitious if I am not sure on a date. You seem to revel on a potential missed fact and look for a hole to pounce on to.
I only corrected one thing you said DAYS ago. I have moved on from it. You are still dwelling on it. If you think that's pouncing on something, you have a lot to learn. Read my posts, man. When I "pounce", I go for the jugular. All I did in this case was acknowledge what could have even been a typo.

Let it go man, you seem to feel that the other readers will hold you in higher esteem by pointing out the mistakes of others, but when I see you do it to others my opinion is that your being a pain in the ass.

If it is so much of a pain in the ass then stop bringing it up. I let it go right after I said it. Catch up. I don't have to try to get props from "other readers" by pointing out a damn thing. I post what I feel- whoever has the sense to respect it, cool. If not, they can suck it up and keep it moving.

I also like the bail out of "we are just being "sensitive." When you challenge all my points, your just showing that you only care about your opinion and am really not digesting my point of view.
Son, I don't have to bail out an anything. Standing by what I say has never been a problem. All 600+ of my posts in this forum are all comments I have stood by. You are still very much a Newbie who is still learning the ropes around here. I care about what's best for the team, and have no problem agreeing with airtight standpoints, even when I may initially disagree. Have you forgotten so soon that we agreed on anything? LOL that amnseia must be contagious.

Is that being sensitive? Not really, its just wasting my time, and why bother with a good discussion if the person your talking with is not even listening.
Prescribe a bottle of that medicine for yourself, doc.

Some people hear have good points that do not jive with yours, but they are worthwhile to listen to.
And I do, as my thread history proves.

As always, I can expect your getting in that last word. Perhaps we are too alike in that regard.
True. Had your reply been a little less confrontational, I would have let it slide. Hopefully we can keep the discussion clean from now on.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
Nedyal1
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9/12/2003  5:40 PM



"Son, I don't have to bail out an anything. Standing by what I say has never been a problem. All 600+ of my posts in this forum are all comments I have stood by. You are still very much a Newbie who is still learning the ropes around here. I care about what's best for the team, and have no problem agreeing with airtight standpoints, even when I may initially disagree. Have you forgotten so soon that we agreed on anything? LOL that amnseia must be contagious."

That was some point counter point.

IM a newbie here, oops, did not mean to leave my scent on your established turf. LOL

We snipping like two old bitches.

I love you man, you can have my bud light.

We should teach a course at NYU "Deep psychoanalysis of Knick Management translations.

My final word, If I may be sold bold: "The past is tangable, the future is abstract".

See you in another topic............................


THE PROBLEM AT HAND MUST BE SOLVED WITH A HIGHER LEVEL OF THINKING THAN THAT IN WHICH IT WAS CREATED: ALBERT EINSTIEN
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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9/12/2003  6:39 PM
Let's split the Bud Light, and I'll give you a full control of all the newbie turf in this forum. lololol

LMAO I'd rather teach that class @ 2 Penn Plaza in front of Dolan and LayDown.

Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
Nedyal1
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9/13/2003  12:48 AM
LMAO I'd rather teach that class @ 2 Penn Plaza in front of Dolan and LayDown.

One is a drunk with a rich dad, the other with a 10 year at 2 mil each. They need to teach us!









THE PROBLEM AT HAND MUST BE SOLVED WITH A HIGHER LEVEL OF THINKING THAN THAT IN WHICH IT WAS CREATED: ALBERT EINSTIEN
Laydog, Laydown, Laydum, Doldumb, Doldrum, and Dolomite..........

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