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Will Mike Mussina Make It to the Hall of Fame?
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Bonn1997
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Will Mike Mussina Make It to the Hall of Fame?
Yes, but he needs to get more wins
Yes, he cemented his hall-of-fame status today
No, he's never been dominant enough to be a hall-of-famer
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Bonn1997
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9/28/2008  9:19 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

Bonn it's obvious you're a huge Mussina fan (which is fine) so it might not really be worth debating this topic with you.

I love Mussina, I'd be happy for him to get into the HOF, I don't think he deserves to though. If he pitches 3 more years like he did this year, then I would gladly change my mind.
3 more years like this???? That puts him at 330 wins, which would be equivalent to at least 400 in the 4 man rotation era. I think that's a crazy standard.

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Bonn1997
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9/28/2008  9:22 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by nyk4ever:

I mean to me, it's pretty hard to digest that in 04, 05 and 07 Moose had ERAs of 4.50 (12 wins), 4.41 (13 wins) and 5.15 (11 wins) respectively. Those are 3 pretty bad seasons and out of those 36 wins, I bet he earned maybe half because of his poor pitching, the other half came because he played on a high-powered offensive team. So really to me, him getting near 300 right now is more a product of the team he's on than anything else aka not his great effectiveness.

I hate to do this because I love Moose, he's always been a gamer and I'm happy he got his 20th this year, but he's honestly not a HOFer.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 09-28-2008 8:57 PM]

4.50 and 4.41 are average to slightly better than average AL ERAs. Why is it so surprising that someone with average/slightly better than average AL ERAs would have a 13 and a 12 win season? Look here at the win totals of starting AL starting pitchers with ERAs between 4.38 and 4.90: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?league=al
They are 13, 14, 14, 11, 12, 14, 11, 14
Now those are not hand-selected pitchers. Those are ALL of the AL starting pitchers with ERAs in that range and with enough total innings pitched to qualify to be listed as ERA leaders.

In 04 05 and 07 respectively the American league ERA for those years was 4.59 (Moose 4.50) 4.23 (Moose 4.41) 4.47 (Moose 5.15.) Each year Moose was either right at the league ERA or worse, sometimes by a wide margin, how is that HOF worthy? This isn't to say no HOF pitcher has ever done the same (look at Pedro this year and last), but for guys like that, they cemented their spots in Cooperstown already. Moose was always pretty good, never great, which is why he won't get in the HOF, nor should he.
He wasn't great this year?
nyk4ever
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9/28/2008  9:33 PM
Bonn, there's not much else I can say. A 3.69 ERA with one 20win season, no Cy Youngs and no Championships, is not the best recipe to try and get into Cooperstown. Say whatever you want, but it's not.
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djsunyc
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9/28/2008  9:46 PM
he's debateable but they will use the steroid era as a reason for him to get inducted...
Solace
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9/28/2008  10:08 PM
It's hard to say where Moose falls in. I think he's borderline. In his defense, I think there's other seasons where he would've gotten 20 wins under other circumstances, particularly in Baltimore. A 3.69 ERA is very good in the AL. I, like others, though, will say that his HOF chances are solely based on whether he makes 300 wins or not.
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Bonn1997
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9/29/2008  6:39 AM
Buster Olney just said after today's performance he locked himself in as a hall of famer. I think we Yankee fans are Mussina's toughest critics.
Nalod
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9/29/2008  9:26 AM
270 wins in this era is pretty good.

Base line career is like Maddox who got his 300th while pitching for a few teams.
Vmart
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9/29/2008  11:02 AM
To be honest I get nothing out of players going into the Hall of fame.
TMS
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9/29/2008  2:28 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

How many career games was Blylevyn over .500?

u know u pick ur stats selectively it seems for players u like... any other time we discuss a pitcher's performance & the topic of W's comes into the equation, u tell me that has little to do w/individual performance & relies on too many other variables... BB's career ERA is at least 30 points lower than Moose's & he's got 900 more career K's... now u gonna tell me that ERA & K totals have little to do w/judging a pitcher's HOF status? btw, BB was also a much better pitcher in the postseason than Moose, it's not even close.

like i said, if he's not in the HOF u have a hard time arguing why Moose deserves to be there. (for the record, i happen to think BB should be in)
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Bonn1997
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9/29/2008  3:09 PM
I said ERA and K totals have little to do with judging a pitcher's HOF status? Where? I actually think ERA is very important but you should look at where the player ranks ERA wise within his time era to control for the fact that ERAs vary dramatically in different periods.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 09-29-2008 3:11 PM]
Bonn1997
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9/29/2008  3:20 PM
I guess what I was hoping for was an explanation for why Mussina should be the first pitcher in the history of the game to be over 100 games over .500 and not in the hall-of-fame. The only answers I get are:
"He never won a world series." But then if you point out lots of hall-of-famers didn't, there is no response.
"He was never totally dominant." But then if you ask why that's more important than being extremely reliable over, possibly the most reliable pitcher over the last three decades, there is no response.
"He never won a Cy Young Award." OK, but then I guess you think Mariano should not be a hall-of-famer either. I don't have the info. but I'd be curious how many baseball hall-of-fame pitchers never won Cy Young Awards. I'd bet there are plenty and bet many have far worse career records than Mussina.

Basically none of the reasons people come up with are used to evaluate other pitchers. So I'm still left with no answer as to why Mike Mussina should be the first mlb pitcher ever to be 100 (well over 100 in his case) games over .500 denied hall-of-fame status.
TMS
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9/29/2008  3:25 PM
put it this way, i'd put Curt Schilling into the HOF before i would Mike Mussina, & i'm not trying to diss on Moose... IMO he needs another year like the one he just had, or he has to get that magic 300 wins, to get in... people are giving u reasons but if u don't wanna accept them, that's on u.
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Bonn1997
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9/29/2008  4:16 PM
I'd put Curt in too. He can be the subject of a separate thread. People are giving me weak reasons that they can't when I offer a response, and here again, you couldn't or at least didn't respond to any of the comments I made about the reasons people were giving.
TMS
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9/29/2008  4:30 PM
a lot of people will also say the reasons u give for wanting Moose are weak reasons in themselves... in the end this is a highly subjective topic & u being a big Moose fan it's probably not a topic we can ever fairly debate.
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Allanfan20
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9/29/2008  4:50 PM
Bonn, I agree that he deserves to have a shot at it, but I wouldn't be dissapointed if he never made it. Look at it this way. He never had AAANY of the following, at least as of yet:

Cy Young (Although maybe this season?)
World Series (Along with World Series MVP)
Completely dominant season or series of dominant seasons
No hitter (Although that's unfair)
300 win season (Also maybe unfair but hey, he's close)
Amongst career leaders in strike outs (I'm pretty sure he isn't)

How many hall of fame pitchers have NONE of those credentials?
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Bonn1997
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9/29/2008  6:31 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Bonn, I agree that he deserves to have a shot at it, but I wouldn't be dissapointed if he never made it. Look at it this way. He never had AAANY of the following, at least as of yet:

Cy Young (Although maybe this season?)
World Series (Along with World Series MVP)
Completely dominant season or series of dominant seasons
No hitter (Although that's unfair)
300 win season (Also maybe unfair but hey, he's close)
Amongst career leaders in strike outs (I'm pretty sure he isn't)

How many hall of fame pitchers have NONE of those credentials?

Those seem arbitrary but my guess is that the answer is higher than zero.

Just to offer some counterarguments:

In what sense was he not completely dominant in 1992? 2.54 ERA, 1.08 WHIP. Eight complete games in 32 starts. That's better #s than most Cy Young winners put up. A lot of guys with those #s win 22 games.

Mike does have the 5 man rotation equivalent of 300 wins. Another way of putting it is that we're probably only going to have one hall of fame starting pitcher per decade (my guess) if we continue to have 300 wins as a requirement.

It amazes me that TV announcers are being much more positive than Yankee fans toward Moose's hall-of-fame credentials. I really think some Yankee fans are just displacing anger (that should be directed at Cash/Stein) over not winning WSs. They're incredibly harsh, harsher than any non-Yankee fans, toward any of our players who (a) signed big contracts and (b) were not members of WS winning teams.


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 09-29-2008 6:32 PM]
nyk4ever
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9/29/2008  6:43 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

It amazes me that TV announcers are being much more positive than Yankee fans toward Moose's hall-of-fame credentials. I really think some Yankee fans are just displacing anger (that should be directed at Cash/Stein) over not winning WSs. They're incredibly harsh, harsher than any non-Yankee fans, toward any of our players who (a) signed big contracts and (b) were not members of WS winning teams.

So anyone who doesn't think Moose isn't worth of Cooperstown is an angry Yankee fan who hates players who signed large contracts?

That is extremely unfair and I take offense to it.
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Bonn1997
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9/29/2008  7:34 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Bonn1997:

It amazes me that TV announcers are being much more positive than Yankee fans toward Moose's hall-of-fame credentials. I really think some Yankee fans are just displacing anger (that should be directed at Cash/Stein) over not winning WSs. They're incredibly harsh, harsher than any non-Yankee fans, toward any of our players who (a) signed big contracts and (b) were not members of WS winning teams.

So anyone who doesn't think Moose isn't worth of Cooperstown is an angry Yankee fan who hates players who signed large contracts?

That is extremely unfair and I take offense to it.
Anyone? No, I said some.
TMS
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9/29/2008  7:41 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Bonn1997:

It amazes me that TV announcers are being much more positive than Yankee fans toward Moose's hall-of-fame credentials. I really think some Yankee fans are just displacing anger (that should be directed at Cash/Stein) over not winning WSs. They're incredibly harsh, harsher than any non-Yankee fans, toward any of our players who (a) signed big contracts and (b) were not members of WS winning teams.

So anyone who doesn't think Moose isn't worth of Cooperstown is an angry Yankee fan who hates players who signed large contracts?

That is extremely unfair and I take offense to it.

i don't get that sense at all... seems like Bonn's reading way too much into these arguments... unless u agree w/his point of view i guess no explanation will be a viable one.
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Bonn1997
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9/29/2008  7:41 PM
I'm a psychologist. Reading a lot into people is what I do! I can't find any other explanation for the fact that Yankee fans are harsher than anyone else is toward all their players who signed big contracts and haven't won WSs. You seemed to understand this pretty well with A-Rod at least. I probably shouldn't have shared my theory out loud, though. It's not something people would suddenly say, "Oh yeah, you're right. I was doing that."

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 09-29-2008 7:43 PM]
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Will Mike Mussina Make It to the Hall of Fame?
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