foxsports: top 10 pg's
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EnySpree
Posts: 44919 Alba Posts: 138 Joined: 4/18/2003 Member: #397 |
9/13/2008 3:24 AM
Marbs gets a lot of flap but yo.....he "was" more a point guard than Arenas....AND Phoney Parker! Marbs still "was" getting 8 assists every night. Don't take that away from him no matter how much of an ******* you think he is.....and he is an *******.
Baron needs to get bumped up a bit. Subscribe to my Podcast https://youtube.com/c/DiehardknicksPodcast
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tkf
Posts: 36487 Alba Posts: 6 Joined: 8/13/2001 Member: #87 |
9/13/2008 5:39 AM
Posted by Markji: nash being behind parker is really a joke.. Honestly nash should be ahead of deron williams(who is less of a PG than nash) and second behind chris paul who is the best PG in the league and a top 10 player overall... Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser...............
TKF
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SupremeCommander
Posts: 34074 Alba Posts: 35 Joined: 4/28/2006 Member: #1127 |
9/13/2008 3:07 PM
Posted by tkf:Posted by SupremeCommander: Kidd is a terrible defender. Let's be real here... any quick point destroys him. Look at the Mavs... they got worse after they acquired him because they lost Devin Harris' ability to stay infront of Paul, Parkers, and Williams of the world. On the other end, teams cave in because his already terrible shot was God-awful last year. He's still one of the best distributors in the game but, yeah, I'd rather have Calderon or Arenas than Kidd. DLeethal wrote:
Lol Rick needs a safe space
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knicks1248
Posts: 42059 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 2/3/2004 Member: #582 |
9/13/2008 5:35 PM
Posted by Paladin55:Posted by daddynel: IMO pgs are suppose to be able to put up at least 18pg 4/5rbs 10ast 2stl. a night. you won't win rings with a poor scoring pg, especially with the way the game is being played. Pg needs to be double or trap every time down court to create for his team mates. That list shoudn't really have an order, it should be listed as "In no special order" ES
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oohah
Posts: 26600 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 4/7/2005 Member: #887 |
9/13/2008 7:08 PM
Kidd is a terrible defender. Let's be real here... any quick point destroys him. Is there another Jason Kidd I don't know about? Sure, he's lost a step and is no longer the best defensive PG in the game, but he is pretty much top 5 ever at his position, defense-wise. Kidd was second team all-defense just 2 years ago. last season, 2007-2008 he was 11th in the NBA in steals, and 7th career leader. He has been all defense first team 5 times, second team 4 times, in a 13 year career. http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_defense.html http://www.nba.com/nets/news/All_Access_Online_Jason_Kidd_All_Defensive_Second_Team.html However, Chris Paul did eat Kidd's lunch in last year's playoffs, but that is just the changing of the guard. Literally. oohah [Edited by - oohah on 13-09-2008 7:19 PM] Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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oohah
Posts: 26600 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 4/7/2005 Member: #887 |
9/13/2008 7:10 PM
IMO pgs are suppose to be able to put up at least 18pg 4/5rbs 10ast 2stl. They should put up those kind of numbers if their name is Magic Johnson, Kidd, Payton, Stockton, Nash, or Thomas. Those are hall of fame numbers, most PG's have not and will not ever come close to those kinds of numbers even in their best season. oohah Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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SupremeCommander
Posts: 34074 Alba Posts: 35 Joined: 4/28/2006 Member: #1127 |
9/13/2008 11:33 PM
Posted by oohah:Kidd is a terrible defender. Let's be real here... any quick point destroys him. He is no longer an elite defender. I don't care about his past performance. He is no longer an elite defender. He *was* an elite defender. Look at the opposing points stats from him *THIS* season. All the quick guards destroyed him. Chris Pual had one of his greatest season this season right after Kidd got traded to Dallas. He's not the only one to put up numbers against Kidd. I'm not discounting what Kidd has accomplished in his career. But that's in the past. His defense *TERRIBLE*. His shot is *TERRIBLE*. He is not the same class of player that used to be. If he's such a great player still, why was he so pedestrian in the playoffs? He had Dirk and Howard to pass to! 8/6/6 are hardly terrible numbers, nor is an 16.8 PER. But I think the best way to see if another player is great is by stacking him up against the best. Chris Paul was the best PG in the NBA last season. He doesn't have the weapons Kidd had in Dallas. But he chewed Kidd up... game 5: 24/15/11, game 4: 16/8/7, game 3: 16/10/2, game 2: 32/17/5, game 1: 35/10/3 I know Paul is great, but if Kidd truly was still a great defensive player, Paul wouldn't have scored 30+ twice. If Kidd was still such a great defensive palyer, he would have stayed in front of Paul and he wouldn't have had those absurd assist totals... 15, 8, 10, 17, and 10. Kidd is not the same player he was. He's still very good, but he isn't the same player and I thought this was obvious to everyone that watched him play this past season. I'm not going to put more time into this, but I'll make this statement based upon what I remember this season: if you look at the production of the other point guards on this top-10 list, I'll bet the collective average of those guards is greater than Kidd's averages in those games. That's a hunch because based upon what I saw last season, his defensive play was weak. DLeethal wrote:
Lol Rick needs a safe space
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oohah
Posts: 26600 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 4/7/2005 Member: #887 |
9/14/2008 1:02 AM
He is no longer an elite defender. I don't care about his past performance. He is no longer an elite defender. He *was* an elite defender. Look at the opposing points stats from him *THIS* season. All the quick guards destroyed him. Chris Pual had one of his greatest season this season right after Kidd got traded to Dallas. He's not the only one to put up numbers against Kidd. If you have stats on the guards that destroyed Kidd all season I would love to see them. I don't know where to find them. Being a great defensive player doesn't mean you shut down all the great scorers in the league. Nobody can really do that. However, I am not arguing that he is no longer an elite defensive player. I think you are exaggerating his drop off quite a bit though. In fact, Kidd is still quite good defensively. Since you want to talk about 2008 only, check this out: Kidd got 4 first place and 13 second place votes for the all-defensive team in 2008, almost enough to get him on the team again despite his terrible defense!: http://www.nba.com/news/defensive_team_080512.html You're using as a measure Chris Paul in the playoffs, the best young point guard in the league, and MVP runner up? Paul, one of the top 5-8 players in the game? What next, Kidd didn't shut down Lebron and Kobe so he can't play D? Why did CP score 30+ twice against Kidd? Well, that would be because the Hornets revolve around him and he is a great young player, much like the next Isiah Thomas entering his prime, and Kidd was just a regular all-star starter last year. Also take into account that Dallas is a crappy defensive team in the first place. lastly, one playoff series is a pretty small sample size to base your opinion on. I'm not going to put more time into this, but I'll make this statement based upon what I remember this season: if you look at the production of the other point guards on this top-10 list, I'll bet the collective average of those guards is greater than Kidd's averages in those games. That's a hunch because based upon what I saw last season, his defensive play was weak. I don't understand what you mean, and I am not trying to be a jerk. I really don't understand. However, I will say this: Kidd didn't finish 11th in steals in 2008 because he is a poor defensive player. He didn't nearly make all-defense again because he sucks on D. 2008 was the first season in 9 years that Kidd did not finish on the first or second team all defense. What you are saying is that he went from all defense second team to *TERRIBLE* on defense in one season. I'm sorry, but that is *ABSURD* and the numbers don't back your assertion up. Somehow he came thisclose to making the all-defense again in 2008. Compare him to the entire list above right now and he is still top 5 defensively. Steve Nash and Jose Calderon can't guard me. Arenas and Parker have never been associated with good defense, Baron Davis plays for steals at all times and in 2008 got less votes for all defense than Kidd, Andre Miller and Deron Williams got less votes than Kidd. And if you take into account the ability to guard positions other than PG, he is better than anyone on the list right now. Kidd still guards shooting guards and small forwards regularly. Maybe 2 of the other guys on the list can consistently D up a shooting guard. If you'd like to do a real comparison, look at all the starting PGs in the NBA last year. It is pretty much a guarantee that Kidd is still in the top 5 defensively, which is incredible considering his age and undergoing microfracture knee surgery. oohah [Edited by - oohah on 14-09-2008 01:16 AM] Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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foxsports: top 10 pg's