Posted by izybx:

I will NEVER support a candidate like Obama. Im pro life, pro Iraq war, pro lower taxes for everybody, pro stop giving my money to other people. Barry Obama will never represent a person like me, no matter how smart they guy is.

I guess I'd like to understand your positions a little more clearly to see why and how you are aligning yourself with McCain or against Obama.

Pro life
- this is pretty cut and dried and I understand it completely, no problems; McCain pro life, Obama pro choice.

Pro Iraq War
- What does this mean? Bush Doctrine?
- Do you support invading foreign countries whose dictators are a little nutty based on a whim? Or do you support our troops? Or do you support infrastructure for complete democracy in the middle east?
- Do you support spending $5B a month in security and whatnot for Iraq?
- Do you support not putting 100% effort into finding and killing 9/11 masterminds (can't really do both Iraq and Afgan).
- Do you support raising taxes to make sure we have money to take care of our troops for weapons, armor, health care for vets?
- Do you support possible need for military draft?

Lower Taxes
- I don't know anyone who is NOT for lower taxes and yet have things we have to pay for.
- In lieu of lower taxes... do you support getting rid of health care for elderly/poor?
- Do you support eliminating social security?
- Do you support bring home our troops immediately so that we don't have to foot that bill?
- Our budget deficit is killing us in the international market... do you support borrowing/selling america to China?


I am for lower taxes but the reality is we need the money to pay for stuff. I am pro our troops but I don't want to spend more money than we have to and we have better places to spend it. I am pro choice. I just feel like in the long run Obama will put our nation in a better place longer term than McCain would. McCain has been outright lying to the public lately, and if that's not a reflection of the type of office he would run, I don't know what is.

Who needs the rest of the country to vote? Every four years the presidential election should be decided by Markji's poll on untimateknicks. Go Obama!

Posted by martin:

I am for lower taxes but the reality is we need the money to pay for stuff. I am pro our troops but I don't want to spend more money than we have to and we have better places to spend it. I am pro choice. I just feel like in the long run Obama will put our nation in a better place longer term than McCain would. McCain has been outright lying to the public lately, and if that's not a reflection of the type of office he would run, I don't know what is.

imho, both candidates are weak and will be in office for 1 term only...and more often than not, that's basically not enough time to see a big enough change take place...

the next president's sole stamp on us history will be what he does with the troops over the next 4 years...it's basically what dictates the american economy...

[Edited by - djsunyc on 09-18-2008 10:50 AM]

Posted by izybx:

Posted by Markji:

Izy
I am glad you explained your positions so well. And while I am for Obama I respect your opinions and agree with your remarks about debating politics with people with different views and their responses. Very insightful and funny...and so true.

I want to innocently ask you a question on Pro-Life as most people I talk with are very Pro-Choice.
1. Is there an accepted time during pregnancy when the "soul" actually enters the embryo in the womb? Is it different with different religions.

2. This may be more political, but I am open to hearing your answer without debating or calling you names - If someone is Pro-Life, how can they also be Pro Iraq war. Pro-life wants to save the life of innocent babies and yet, in Iraq, we have killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, many of them woman, children, and babies in a war that we started for falacious reasons?


[Edited by - markji on 09-17-2008 9:26 PM]

I dont pretend to know when a embryo becomes a person. I personally believe that at conception an embryo should be given all the same rights as an other human neing. Everyone of us here today was an embryo at some point, and I dont think any of us would say that we didnt deserve a chance. Im pro life in all circumstances, with the exception of when it would endanger the life of the mother.

I think being in Pro life and supporting the war in Iraq are two different topics. I obviously dont support the death of any innocent person. But in war that is simply reality. In every war during the last 100 years innocent people died. I dont think many here would debate the merits of either World War or Korea. And I understand that the reason for the invasion of Iraq are murky and suspect, I feel that at this point it is necessary to salvage what we can from the war, and install a friendly regime in an otherwise hostile region. Lets not forget that historically, no democracy has ever gone to war with another democracy. A lot of people dont understand that perserving the honor and strength of our nation is important to many voters. Some people either dont care and want to leave Iraq as soon as possible, or think it would be honorable to admit to the world that we were wrong to invade and pull out. But I disagree, and I express myself with my vote. And that vote will be for Mccain.

[Edited by - izybx on 17-09-2008 10:55 PM]

I accept your opinion on ProLife. Personally, I don't feel there should be a law banning abortions, especially in the first few months, for those who want it. I am not for abortion as a means of birth control. Prevention is better option. And sex education should be offered. Abortion should be there as an alternative to those who want/need it.

Your opinion on the war, however, troubles me.

I obviously dont support the death of any innocent person. But in war that is simply reality. In every war during the last 100 years innocent people died.

You too easily dismiss the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent people during war, especially one that we created under "murky and suspect reasons" as that's what happens during a war. How can you not be outraged that so many innocent people have been killed, especially if you are Pro-Life? I thought killing (especially innocent people) was a sin! I find this very hypocritical!

I also find it interesting that most people who are Pro-Life have been Pro-war (i.e. Pro Killing) right from the start, and most people who I know that are Pro-Choice have been against the war from the start.

Posted by martin:

Posted by djsunyc:

Posted by martin:

I am for lower taxes but the reality is we need the money to pay for stuff. I am pro our troops but I don't want to spend more money than we have to and we have better places to spend it. I am pro choice. I just feel like in the long run Obama will put our nation in a better place longer term than McCain would. McCain has been outright lying to the public lately, and if that's not a reflection of the type of office he would run, I don't know what is.

imho, both candidates are weak and will be in office for 1 term only...and more often than not, that's basically not enough time to see a big enough change take place...

the next president's sole stamp on us history will be what he does with the troops over the next 4 years...it's basically what dictates the american economy...

[Edited by - djsunyc on 09-18-2008 10:50 AM]

could be true, but the above has also been said about a lot of 2-term presidents and a lot of very good presidents before they took office.

I'd have to say 80-85% of our presidents have been weak. Obama makes a cool t-shirt so therefore he's the better candidate. (Yucky yucky sacrasm, )

I also wanna add that the next president will get flamed miserably while trying to fix the problems of the Bush administration. Whoever the next president is after the next 4 years probably gonna be an even bigger douche bag than Bush.....oh yeah and get the credit for fixing the country.

Posted by EnySpree:

Posted by martin:

Posted by izybx:

I will NEVER support a candidate like Obama. Im pro life, pro Iraq war, pro lower taxes for everybody, pro stop giving my money to other people. Barry Obama will never represent a person like me, no matter how smart they guy is.

I guess I'd like to understand your positions a little more clearly to see why and how you are aligning yourself with McCain or against Obama.

Pro life
- this is pretty cut and dried and I understand it completely, no problems; McCain pro life, Obama pro choice.

Pro Iraq War
- What does this mean? Bush Doctrine?
- Do you support invading foreign countries whose dictators are a little nutty based on a whim? Or do you support our troops? Or do you support infrastructure for complete democracy in the middle east?
- Do you support spending $5B a month in security and whatnot for Iraq?
- Do you support not putting 100% effort into finding and killing 9/11 masterminds (can't really do both Iraq and Afgan).
- Do you support raising taxes to make sure we have money to take care of our troops for weapons, armor, health care for vets?
- Do you support possible need for military draft?

Lower Taxes
- I don't know anyone who is NOT for lower taxes and yet have things we have to pay for.
- In lieu of lower taxes... do you support getting rid of health care for elderly/poor?
- Do you support eliminating social security?
- Do you support bring home our troops immediately so that we don't have to foot that bill?
- Our budget deficit is killing us in the international market... do you support borrowing/selling america to China?


I am for lower taxes but the reality is we need the money to pay for stuff. I am pro our troops but I don't want to spend more money than we have to and we have better places to spend it. I am pro choice. I just feel like in the long run Obama will put our nation in a better place longer term than McCain would. McCain has been outright lying to the public lately, and if that's not a reflection of the type of office he would run, I don't know what is.

Impressive post. Lets see how many things get ignored so we can prolong this argument for a zillion pages.

Being Pro Iraq war
Yes I support the Bush Doctrine
I support the troops. I support installing democracy in the middle east if necessary.
We should spend whatever it costs at this point to win the war.
The masterminds of the war are in Pakistan.
We dont need to raise taxes to pay for the war at this point. iF it became necessary than I would have to support it so long as it would be temporary.
At this point I dont want a draft. If we are having problems recruiting and retaining troops than we have to pay troops the market rate. Private contractors are being paid double the average soldier to do the same job.

As far as taxes, I dont see how not raising taxes will equal all you said. Our country has hundereds of billions of dollars in pork spending and pet projects. Im a fan of reducing spending rather than increasing taxes.

Posted by izybx:

Posted by Markji:

Posted by izybx:

Posted by Markji:

Izy
I am glad you explained your positions so well. And while I am for Obama I respect your opinions and agree with your remarks about debating politics with people with different views and their responses. Very insightful and funny...and so true.

I want to innocently ask you a question on Pro-Life as most people I talk with are very Pro-Choice.
1. Is there an accepted time during pregnancy when the "soul" actually enters the embryo in the womb? Is it different with different religions.

2. This may be more political, but I am open to hearing your answer without debating or calling you names - If someone is Pro-Life, how can they also be Pro Iraq war. Pro-life wants to save the life of innocent babies and yet, in Iraq, we have killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, many of them woman, children, and babies in a war that we started for falacious reasons?


[Edited by - markji on 09-17-2008 9:26 PM]

I dont pretend to know when a embryo becomes a person. I personally believe that at conception an embryo should be given all the same rights as an other human neing. Everyone of us here today was an embryo at some point, and I dont think any of us would say that we didnt deserve a chance. Im pro life in all circumstances, with the exception of when it would endanger the life of the mother.

I think being in Pro life and supporting the war in Iraq are two different topics. I obviously dont support the death of any innocent person. But in war that is simply reality. In every war during the last 100 years innocent people died. I dont think many here would debate the merits of either World War or Korea. And I understand that the reason for the invasion of Iraq are murky and suspect, I feel that at this point it is necessary to salvage what we can from the war, and install a friendly regime in an otherwise hostile region. Lets not forget that historically, no democracy has ever gone to war with another democracy. A lot of people dont understand that perserving the honor and strength of our nation is important to many voters. Some people either dont care and want to leave Iraq as soon as possible, or think it would be honorable to admit to the world that we were wrong to invade and pull out. But I disagree, and I express myself with my vote. And that vote will be for Mccain.

[Edited by - izybx on 17-09-2008 10:55 PM]

I accept your opinion on ProLife. Personally, I don't feel there should be a law banning abortions, especially in the first few months, for those who want it. I am not for abortion as a means of birth control. Prevention is better option. And sex education should be offered. Abortion should be there as an alternative to those who want/need it.

Your opinion on the war, however, troubles me.

I obviously dont support the death of any innocent person. But in war that is simply reality. In every war during the last 100 years innocent people died.

You too easily dismiss the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent people during war, especially one that we created under "murky and suspect reasons" as that's what happens during a war. How can you not be outraged that so many innocent people have been killed, especially if you are Pro-Life? I thought killing (especially innocent people) was a sin! I find this very hypocritical!

I also find it interesting that most people who are Pro-Life have been Pro-war (i.e. Pro Killing) right from the start, and most people who I know that are Pro-Choice have been against the war from the start.

I mean, if Im being hypocritical than so are you. As you stated above, people who are pro choice (pro killing) also lament the thousands of innocent Iraqis and freedom fighters who have died because of the Americans.

The only people who arent hypocrits are people who are Pro Choice and Pro War, and people are Pro life and Anti War. Good like finding any of those!

Pro Choice doesn't mean pro-abortion. It means letting the woman make the choice herself, hopefully after consulting with her parents if she is under 18.

IMO,abortion is really a religious issue. Major religions have debated abortion issues for centuries. That is why I originally asked when the soul goes into the embryo. That is a key fact for me. Unfortunately, major religions aren't clear on this fact.

This is a defense, altho not that strong, for Pro-choice. You can call it hypocritical, as you have. I am not strongly versed in the whole abortion thing as I don't consider it a major political issue, although it is being made one. Overall, I think Gov't should stay out of it, and therefore, I'm pro-choice.

But now, please explain how being Pro-Life and Pro-War is not hypocritical? (You can't just leave it by saying the other side is also hypocritical....two wrongs don't make a right.

I can see how it can appear to be hypocritical. When Americans go to war we take the greatest care to preserve human life. But in war, people die, its the nature of conflict. Because I believe that an unborn child shouldnt be sucked through a vaccuum doesnt mean that I cannot support my nation in war. Because I believe that it is our responsibility to protect a 5 month old child that cant protect itself doesnt mean that I cant support the death penalty for convicted murderers. So when I say I am pro life, should I add the caveat that I am pro life only when it comes to unborn children? Perhaps. But I also believe that human life should be perserved whenever possible. It seems that in war tho, that preventing the death of innocent people is impossible.

[Edited by - izybx on 18-09-2008 4:01 PM]

Iraq, and a number of other middle eastern countries.