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Bob Raissman Gets It!!!
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DefAndReb
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7/27/2003  10:48 AM
Posted by laydenmustdie:

sInce YoU DoNt wAnT mE tO PoSt in ALL CAPS aNd WanT me To SHow some of your precious "NETIQUETTE"....LMAOO...here goes....sorry to bust your bubbble but anyone who believes that we should just sit here and be content and not vent or post about the pathetic movement of this franchise because our "masters" dont care obviously has given up and doesnt care much either...what are all your posts gonna be well we suck but we cant do anything about it so dont complain and just watch and hope for the best ...get a clue...being a fan and having an opinion are what the newspapers and sports shows comment on every day ...having an opinion and voicing it may seem like whining to you but your "we cant do anything about it "philosophy looks like u dont care to us...

Thanks for dropping the caps lock. It's much easier on the eyes. Don't ask me why. It just is.

I didn't say "don't complain", but that complaining will get you nowhere. Can you tell the difference? sebstar obviously cannot. But he starts to come around at the end of his reply.

I used to care. But when Layden gave Allan the $100mil, I knew something was up. It's been all downhill from there. As long as Dolan is in charge, this will never change. That's the point of the article. I'm not saying it's a good thing. It isn't. It's a very bad thing for sports lovers. Do you have to like it? No. Does Cablevision care if you like it or not? No. Can you do anything about it? Not really, which I'll explain last.

Cablevision will replace the fans with new ones, just like the players. Not only will complaining make you feel worse at the end of the day (because it won't have any affect) it will only increase your blood pressure or your stress level, or both, and lead you to an early grave. Don't believe me? Letting things get to you is murder on your nervous system. I know this first hand.

Sebstar thinks MJ was an icon simply because of his play. Nonsense. Basketball fans (the ones who actually watch for the ball) saw a great player. He played brilliantly. Madison Avenue marketed the crap out of him, and every little kid knew who he was, WITHOUT EVER WATCHING A GAME. And MJ backed it all up with more stellar play. Without the marketing, he wouldn't be as famous the world over. Without his play, the marketing eventually loses steam. Think Grant Hill is as good as MJ? Of course not. But, he is extrmemely marketable and recongnizable, without having gotten a team past the first round of the playoffs. Yet, I barely see Allen Iverson do endorsements on TV, even though he is a far better player than Grant Hill ever was.

Can you market "street"? AI? Rasheed? You can try, but it's very tricky, most corporations would consider it not worth the risk. Meanwhile, Vince Carter gets into the All-Star game without having to play. He's such a nice boy, that Vince.

Notice how sebstar, in trying to argue me, starts to get it in his last paragraph? If I didn't crawl up his butt and call him out, he might not have seen it. If I didn't resort to "B-movie" dramatics, would he have started to see it?

"Racist" is a strong term for what this is. This is more misguided foolishness than actual racism. The owners have decided that ticket sales are down not because of the losing, but because of overall exodus of fans from the NBA, which is mainly because no one has been able to step into MJ's shoes and be the family-friendly spokesperson. Only Kobe and Shaq have come close, but now that is in jeopardy. Of course, Dolan is wrong - if he puts together an exciting team, rather than a safe one, more fans will stick. But he's the owner. You can't get rid of him. It's his team. Cablevision belongs to him and his brother. They cannot be removed through fan protest.

Only selling the team will change things. The only way the team gets sold is if they continue to lose money. The only way they lose money is if they lose games, lose ticket sales, and lose merch sales.

What I'm saying is, if you're a true fan (meaning you root for your team even when they stink) you show your loyalty, but nothing will change. If you root for them to lose, and they miss the playoffs, Layden will be fired, but he will be replaced with another corporate yes-man to implement Dolan's directives, nothing will change. If you boycott the team, stop buying, stop watching, stop caring, this could work, but probably not. Dolan has already thought of this. He will replace the b-ball fans (he thinks) with affluent suburban families (they don't have to be white, that's just to get people to pay attention) who don't care about basketball, just about having something to do with their money. If the team is half-decent, meaning playoffs but not championships, this could work, and it justifies his methods to the Cablevision Board of Directors.

Nothing will change. It doesn't matter if Dolan is right or wrong. Nothing will change. Complain all you want. Nothing will change.

Do you see what you're up against? Until Cablevision gives up and sells the Knicks and Rangers, both teams will continue to disappoint sports fans. P. Diddy can't get a phone call returned, much less take control. They will sell when they want to sell, not because of fan complaints. Nothing will change.

So, either watch the Knicks like a zombie and hope the guys they have transcend the corporate masters and win a championship, or run screaming to a team that gives you the product you want. ICE already does this. After I got NBA League Pass three seasons ago, I probably watch more (name a team from the West) games than Knicks. Vote with your dollar. It's the only thing you can do.

For the Knicks, nothing will change.
AUTOADVERT
playa2
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7/27/2003  1:52 PM
AMEN!
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
sebstar
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7/28/2003  2:43 AM
Your antagonistic tone that we are “rabid fans who are whining” and that we don’t get, or are missing their “corporate agenda” gave the impression that we are unjustified in our criticism, or unrealistic… My obvious reply was with squads like the Mavs, Spurs, Lakers, and most especially the Kings…Those Organizations appeal to everybody. They are fan-friendly, exciting to watch and championship caliber…Why on earth can’t we have the same? In NY, the supposed Mecca of basketball!

There is no law that says you have to sacrifice one for the other. You never directly answered that, but the statement that it is too hard to put together a championship team spoke volumes and answered it indirectly…This is a lazy, incompetent regime, that just isn’t good enough to put a championship team on the floor, nothing more, and Knicks fans in no way should put up with that. I’d like to think that is a mainstream sports fan view, and not the voice of the “rabid” minority.

With the parameters you laid out, “They don’t want Black or Ethnic players…” that is almost an exact definition of racism. Now whether that is the actual case, is up for debate. I think there is a racial element for sure. Whatever’s going on, the end result is a terrible team with an emphasis on bland ballplayers with no athleticism. No hope and no future. Great “corporate agenda” , build resentment and have every popular T.V and radio sports show calling your franchise a joke. A winner of a formula.

Now that your positioned has softened like Charles Smith’s game, it’s a little more palatable…Hell, I agree with some of it now…You can still be a Knicks fan and support the team, just not financially which does nothing but encourage them like you said. I think this regime has created the Paradox Knick fan. A fan that loves the Knicks, but hates the actual team, especially its management and actually roots against the team hoping that losing and the ensuing fallout will be an agent for positive change.

We have already seen an erosion in pay fan support (albeit small) …But what if that dam breaks completely with disgust over this team. Unlike you I am not all that confident that there will be a flood of middle to upper class people who will swoop in and pay thousands of dollars to see a “family friendly” mediocre team, especially in this Bush led faltering economy… “Boy that Howard Eisely, he is by far the worst starting point guard in the league, and he makes an obscene amount of money, but he sure is a nice guy and “family friendly” lets go spend our whole paycheck to go watch him & Othella and Travis Knight play” …Maybe in Utah you might hear that, but in NY? The most intense, media saturated sports town in the world? Rabid sports fans, or at least knowledgeable fans basically describes NY in a nutshell. My question, is instead of all of this counter productive nonsense, why not just put in the work, and field an exciting championship team on the floor? What evidence has been unearthed that that is a bad thing?


Sorry, but I just cant let your “street” debate go.

What do you mean its tricky to market street? That’s what every corporation does nowadays, build a direct pipeline to the streets… I think you have a gross misconception of the suburbs in relation to the streets. How many Dockers pants do you see worn by 16 y/o white kids in the suburbs? All you see is Roc a Wear/Mecca/Ecko and all you hear is hip hop. There isn’t the big culture clash that you make it out to be. If anything the streets tell the suburbs and middle America what to do and how to spend their money. A.I is everywhere and his shoes can’t stay on the rack. You haven’t seen his commercials on t.v??? Even in the NBA Finals in 2001, the series drew solid ratings even tho the series was a total mismatch, in large part because of A.I’s appeal...There is also a reason why Spree was the most popular Knick by far.

Let me ask you this question, whom does the public respond to more favorably…A.I or Tim Duncan. Tim has championships, and probably a better game relatively speaking, but no corporation would even touch Tim Duncan’s bland, no emotion game, and “wholesome” personality. That tells you all you need to know. Don’t kid yourself, Michael Jordan wasn’t world famous because he was the pitch man for Ballpark Franks and Duracell batteries. His game was amazing, and he had credibility in both the streets and the burbs, but not one without the other.. You really answered that yourself, because no matter how hard the new NBA players smile, they cant captivate the public like Mike’s revolutionary game did.

I think you are way off base…Look at the culture trends in America, who is screaming for wholesome values anymore? Its more of a young vs. old debate that has marked every generation rather then a wide gap between the suburbs and “the hood”.

My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
playa2
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7/28/2003  6:59 AM
Posted by sebstar:

Your antagonistic tone that we are “rabid fans who are whining” and that we don’t get, or are missing their “corporate agenda” gave the impression that we are unjustified in our criticism, or unrealistic… My obvious reply was with squads like the Mavs, Spurs, Lakers, and most especially the Kings…Those Organizations appeal to everybody. They are fan-friendly, exciting to watch and championship caliber…Why on earth can’t we have the same? In NY, the supposed Mecca of basketball!

The knicks are much different than those teams above, in the 90's when we were successful we werent nice guys we played mean tuff in ya face basketball ,neither of those teams above had players who played like that. Those teams haven't had to change their persona on the court and the knicks have. That ruff and tuff stuff was a different era brand of basketball and some knicks fans are still in another time zone wanting those type of players and attitudes. Now we are caught in the middle from changing over from ruff neck style in the 90's to nice off the court players like the mavs , dallas sac-town etc.. only thing is we don't have the same talent. Now we make another stride in drafting Sweetney, Lampe and Vranes a now injured Mcdyess Houston Ward etc.. and you see we are trying to immitate that same type of product on the court. This team will turn the corner with it's agenda. And about the argument about nobody is trying to market tim Duncan, Look at where he's playing lil SanAntonio. PUT HIM IN A BIG MARKET AND HE WILL BE SELLING ANYTHING FROM MARSHMELLOWS TO trips to the Island ST CROIX VIRGIN ISLANDS.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
DefAndReb
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7/28/2003  8:27 AM
See sebstar, now you're talking. Except for the Charles Smith thing, that's way worse than anything I called you.

Why can't we have a Mavs, Kings, Spurs team in NY, or hell anywhere in the East? Only the Nets come close. Who is their owner? What other teams does he own?

It starts at the top. Cablevision is as bad for basketball as Bill Bidwill (Cardinals owner) is for football. I grew up around St. Louis. If you've never been there, it's simple. It's a baseball town. Big time. Even when the Cards aren't winning baseball games, people come. It's a team always trying to be in the hunt, if it doesn't always succeed. Most pennants of any National League franchise.

Then there was the Big Red, the other Cardinals. Boy did they suck. My dad used to tell me that the owner was the worst ever. When they sneaked out of St. Louis and over to Arizona, people said "good riddance". Now they have the Rams, and they're much happier (it helps to have a better owner). Arizona has gotten to the playoffs maybe once since the move, and they got knocked out of the first round, just like back in St. Louis. Who owns them now? Same incompetent dude.

It doesn't get better. Bad owner means bad team forever. Or until the owner has to sell the team.

The Maloofs, Mark Cuban? These guys are excited about winning and bringing in fans. They are not traditional corporate types. They are not "playing it safe".

Instead of protesting Spree's trade, instead of calling for a new coach, instead of screaming "Fire Layden!" at the top of your lungs, the best you can hope for is to bring down the Cablevision organization. If you have their cable, use someone else's. Instead of going to the Wiz, go to Circuit City. Boycott MSG's sponsors. If Cablevision is drowning in its own red ink, there's a chance they would sell the team. That's a lot more productive than protesting the Spree trade. These guys do not change their minds based on media reports or fan protest. Only the financial destruction of Cablevision will bring about the change required to give the Knicks the chance of being an exciting contender.

Until then, the Knicks will be a highly paid, "safe" blend of unexciting role players, good enough to win half their games, but never good enough to complete for the big prize. And the main thing is, everyone in the group gets along well. Camby did not, Spree did not, JVG did not. Gone. They were either traded or couldn't take the BS anymore. JVG left before he got the Rick Carlisle treatment. Dolan likes Chaney and Layden because everyone gets along well. That's what's priority number one at Cablevision. Smiles and handshakes. Pure corporate facade.

Yes, my hope is that part of this Cablevision downfall comes from fans. In this city, people like winners. Also, families at basketball games? This ain't baseball, folks. How much would it cost to take a family of four to a game at MSG?

But if their scheme works, and the Knicks get into the playoffs, that's as good as they'll ever be. And it will never change.

P.S. - Yeah, Duncan vs. AI. By "family-friendly" I mean the guy has to actually be friendly, not a robot. Duncan is a highly talented android. He has zero expression. I said safe, not alien.

Vince is a prime example. They're not a contender, but he's a big star, nonetheless, mostly because of his dunking abilities and family-safe image. He's got no heart, at least none that he's really shown yet, but he's a nice boy, and he scores points. That sells tickets. Get them back into the playoffs, the people in Toronto will pay the bucks to see it. That's the Knicks strategy, especially if Dice can play again, and by that I mean really play. If not, then they rely on Houston, whose acting performance in "Black and White" was so unlifelke that he made Claudia Schiffer look like an oscar winner in their scenes together.
playa2
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7/28/2003  9:34 AM
Knick fans will alays come to games! Those who previous had season tickets who didn't renew, well there are many who has been on the waiting list and the Dolans know that. In all reality he's now bringing in a new knick fan , the ones who were never able to get season tickets because of the many yrs of being sold out along with the ones who left who will wait until a different product hits the court. This is why screaming for change is so funny to me by knick fans why? Cuz it ain't happening!
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
ICEMAN
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7/28/2003  11:50 AM
def and reb you got some good points, but i will give the nod to sebstar in this thread. to make it short and sweet, to say dolan can build a safe product but make it exciting and capable of winning is a insult to New york and the rest of the NBA. to put all exciting talented basketball players in one tiny stereotype is a joke, it's pratically a insult to the lebron James Tim duncans and Kevin garnetts of the world. Dog go to any suburb and you will see Tupac, biggie, eminem, MJ and Iverson on most childrens walls in the bed room and the parents love a exciting athletic winning team.

there is not a more surburban team than the sacremento kings, you can t tell me they want to see doleac and van horn over Tatto wearing Bibby and case catching Webber.

the reason the Nets dont sell is not because of white or black or athletes or a safe product it's because of one thing, Location,location,location,
You ever retry to drive home from there on a wednesday night???

And New york Fans whether white or black care less than you think about safe marketable white guys from the suburbs, the suburbs want to Win just like the hood.
you listen to Jimmy, But you cant hear Jimmy
ICEMAN
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7/28/2003  11:55 AM
having said that no doubt the nba is white washing the nba, no doubt you are 100 pct right, but it looks like the market is going with lebron to carry the torch.

Kobe i love the kid awesome player, could never carry the market the nba, and before the chick he had a more wholesome personality than jordan. He had no Street cred at all, the rapping in italion, getting married at 20 being p-whipped hurt him in the streets, whih hurt him in the suburbs. so i don't think kobe is the guy we can base your post on.
you listen to Jimmy, But you cant hear Jimmy
jhferry
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7/28/2003  12:37 PM
Listen the only way to get the Dolans out is to not go to the Games. Period. When they start taking a loss, they will sell. Dont watch the games, just read the paper the next day. Its not like they arent going to the lottery anyway, who wants to watch these guys.
ICEMAN
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7/28/2003  12:42 PM
if you got cable the dolans still getting paid brother, msg, cablevision.
you listen to Jimmy, But you cant hear Jimmy
ICEMAN
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7/28/2003  1:35 PM
to the readers of this thread remember one Vital factor in this debate

Alot of creative markets gets started in the streets, Hip hop,and many fashion markets gets hot in the hood first then eventually suburbia picks up.

how many white kids in the suburbs have doo rags now.
you listen to Jimmy, But you cant hear Jimmy
playa2
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7/28/2003  1:44 PM
Corporate America don't care about do rags unless they are selling them!
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
jhferry
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7/28/2003  1:50 PM
While its true that cablevision gets paid by cable I thought revenue based on ratings will hurt them if nobody is watching.
ICEMAN
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7/28/2003  2:19 PM
you telling me how corporate america works

by the way 'm talking about the suburbian buying market, they always follow the inner cities. like a posta said, rap is basically being funded by suburbia america, check any concert and see the group base. 50 cents is huge in any suburb.
you listen to Jimmy, But you cant hear Jimmy
prodson
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7/28/2003  3:18 PM
a man who sells fake fubu to his neighbors is telling someone how corporate america works


go figure

i bet your neighbor stopped speaking to you after that
all those years as a fan and now i'm the anti-knick. life is crazy aint it.
playa2
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7/28/2003  4:00 PM
So you telling us you don't get out much huh. I am Corporate America!
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
ICEMAN
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7/28/2003  4:10 PM
corporate is not wearing a white shirt and tie and selling fake guesss jeans out the back of your car
you listen to Jimmy, But you cant hear Jimmy
playa2
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7/28/2003  4:18 PM
You livin in the past ice, get over it man it's getting old. I just let you and prod rant.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
ICEMAN
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7/28/2003  4:20 PM
no you living in the past fool, you can cticize anyone's past, spree gundy and whoever but we cant criticize yours??

You scare to place your Vote?
you listen to Jimmy, But you cant hear Jimmy
playa2
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7/28/2003  4:22 PM
LOL , my man ice. I will later, but now i'm talking to soME ONE
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
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