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Why not keep this whole draft/rebuild thing real simple?
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tkf
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6/17/2008  1:26 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Oneil's shot at being a franchise player has probably passed, and there is a big risk he will continue to breakdown. The downside? If your just taking on money for the Knicks there is NO downside.

This is what I am talking about. For 28 other teams they would need JO to be the main cog/star/franchise guy, especially for that money. For us we can play him 30 minutes a game and surround him with equal talent.

JO has also been around long enough where he really just want to win. He see's the KGs of the league and wants to be in that situation.

This is why I say we should spend, add these guys with talent that want to win that other teams cant afford, and then balance the roster with young guys we pick up and/or draft.

good point fish and for the knicks, the team with the highest revenue in the NBA they can afford to do things like this.. I think giving them an expiring like marbury or even malik and a filler for JO and their pick is the type of move we should make... It may sound onesided, but we are giving them a crap load of cap space and for indiana that should be worth their pick.. but hey, this is me as a knick fan talking.. then as someone else mentioned, take pick 11 and use that to drop zach off on a team like the sixers and see if they will give us back pick 18.. I know these are a lot of moves, but they are the types of moves I would be looking at... and I also agree, Oneal would not have to worry about being the "man" here, I think that would save him some wear and tear on that already battered NBA body..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
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islesfan
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6/17/2008  1:26 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Oneil's shot at being a franchise player has probably passed, and there is a big risk he will continue to breakdown. The downside? If your just taking on money for the Knicks there is NO downside.

This is what I am talking about. For 28 other teams they would need JO to be the main cog/star/franchise guy, especially for that money. For us we can play him 30 minutes a game and surround him with equal talent.

JO has also been around long enough where he really just want to win. He see's the KGs of the league and wants to be in that situation.

This is why I say we should spend, add these guys with talent that want to win that other teams cant afford, and then balance the roster with young guys we pick up and/or draft.

The downside is even less since his contract expires in 2010. I don't care how much money they spend in 2009 as long as it comes off in 2010.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
tkf
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6/17/2008  1:29 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:

Oneil's shot at being a franchise player has probably passed, and there is a big risk he will continue to breakdown. The downside? If your just taking on money for the Knicks there is NO downside.

This is what I am talking about. For 28 other teams they would need JO to be the main cog/star/franchise guy, especially for that money. For us we can play him 30 minutes a game and surround him with equal talent.

JO has also been around long enough where he really just want to win. He see's the KGs of the league and wants to be in that situation.

This is why I say we should spend, add these guys with talent that want to win that other teams cant afford, and then balance the roster with young guys we pick up and/or draft.

The downside is even less since his contract expires in 2010. I don't care how much money they spend in 2009 as long as it comes off in 2010.

exactly...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
fishmike
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6/17/2008  1:29 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:

Oneil's shot at being a franchise player has probably passed, and there is a big risk he will continue to breakdown. The downside? If your just taking on money for the Knicks there is NO downside.

This is what I am talking about. For 28 other teams they would need JO to be the main cog/star/franchise guy, especially for that money. For us we can play him 30 minutes a game and surround him with equal talent.

JO has also been around long enough where he really just want to win. He see's the KGs of the league and wants to be in that situation.

This is why I say we should spend, add these guys with talent that want to win that other teams cant afford, and then balance the roster with young guys we pick up and/or draft.

The downside is even less since his contract expires in 2010. I don't care how much money they spend in 2009 as long as it comes off in 2010.
why? your still clinging to this star FA stuff? Its a waste of resources

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
islesfan
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6/17/2008  2:00 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:

Oneil's shot at being a franchise player has probably passed, and there is a big risk he will continue to breakdown. The downside? If your just taking on money for the Knicks there is NO downside.

This is what I am talking about. For 28 other teams they would need JO to be the main cog/star/franchise guy, especially for that money. For us we can play him 30 minutes a game and surround him with equal talent.

JO has also been around long enough where he really just want to win. He see's the KGs of the league and wants to be in that situation.

This is why I say we should spend, add these guys with talent that want to win that other teams cant afford, and then balance the roster with young guys we pick up and/or draft.

The downside is even less since his contract expires in 2010. I don't care how much money they spend in 2009 as long as it comes off in 2010.
why? your still clinging to this star FA stuff? Its a waste of resources

No, I'm clinging to flexibility and not having tons of useless contracts on your cap.

You seem to be the one clinging to this star FA stuff.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
fishmike
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6/17/2008  2:59 PM
oh.. then why are contract expiring before a certain year important? If the guy is good who cares if its 2 or 3 or 4 more years?

We need good players that fit into our system and will play winning ball. So long as it doesnt cost us young guys or prospects their contracts shouldnt matter.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
islesfan
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6/17/2008  3:52 PM
Posted by fishmike:

oh.. then why are contract expiring before a certain year important? If the guy is good who cares if its 2 or 3 or 4 more years?

We need good players that fit into our system and will play winning ball. So long as it doesnt cost us young guys or prospects their contracts shouldnt matter.

Ummm because being under the cap allows you greater flexibility to acquire good players. Jermaine is good, but he's been sidelined with injuries so it would be risky to go past 2 years. If Jermaine were healthy I wouldn't care if he had 2,3 or 4 years left, but chances are he wouldn't be available. 2 years is a good risk.

I'm surprised that you wouldn't be interested in Carmelo, if he's truly available. Weren't you the one who thinks that you can't win without a superstar? You'd think that you'd be willing to do whatever it took to acquire him.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
crzymdups
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6/17/2008  4:33 PM
well, flexibility is a big plus for this plan - it allows to take a two year flier on JO'neal. if he can find his game and likes it here, maybe we can re-sign him for a little less in 2010 and add another free agent to he, Westbrook, Nate, Lee, Craw, 2009 draft pick and we've got a real team.

i have no problem with wanting to have cap room - my problem is the philosophy that we don't need to worry about building a team before then. we need to build a team that the FA signing is a big piece and maybe even the final piece to. I don't want a one man band like Lebron's Cavs are currently. I want a full team with a chance to do something.
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islesfan
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6/17/2008  4:44 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

well, flexibility is a big plus for this plan - it allows to take a two year flier on JO'neal. if he can find his game and likes it here, maybe we can re-sign him for a little less in 2010 and add another free agent to he, Westbrook, Nate, Lee, Craw, 2009 draft pick and we've got a real team.

i have no problem with wanting to have cap room - my problem is the philosophy that we don't need to worry about building a team before then. we need to build a team that the FA signing is a big piece and maybe even the final piece to. I don't want a one man band like Lebron's Cavs are currently. I want a full team with a chance to do something.

Why should trying to clear cap space preclude them from adding long term pieces? They should be doing both. Holding onto bad contracts, bad players and bad influences just keep doing harm to the franchise and prolongs the rebuild.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
crzymdups
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6/17/2008  4:50 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by crzymdups:

well, flexibility is a big plus for this plan - it allows to take a two year flier on JO'neal. if he can find his game and likes it here, maybe we can re-sign him for a little less in 2010 and add another free agent to he, Westbrook, Nate, Lee, Craw, 2009 draft pick and we've got a real team.

i have no problem with wanting to have cap room - my problem is the philosophy that we don't need to worry about building a team before then. we need to build a team that the FA signing is a big piece and maybe even the final piece to. I don't want a one man band like Lebron's Cavs are currently. I want a full team with a chance to do something.

Why should trying to clear cap space preclude them from adding long term pieces? They should be doing both. Holding onto bad contracts, bad players and bad influences just keep doing harm to the franchise and prolongs the rebuild.


what bad pieces am i trying to hold on to? i want to ditch Marbury and ZBo and add Westbrook and JOneal.

I agree with you. I want to try JOneal out because I have a serious belief he can be a major impact frontcourt guy for us for the next five years and help us make a push with whatever FA signing we net in 2010 to an actual run at the Finals. I want JOneal for the long term, but if it doesn't work, we can jettison him in 2010 and sign two FAs.
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islesfan
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6/17/2008  4:52 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by crzymdups:

well, flexibility is a big plus for this plan - it allows to take a two year flier on JO'neal. if he can find his game and likes it here, maybe we can re-sign him for a little less in 2010 and add another free agent to he, Westbrook, Nate, Lee, Craw, 2009 draft pick and we've got a real team.

i have no problem with wanting to have cap room - my problem is the philosophy that we don't need to worry about building a team before then. we need to build a team that the FA signing is a big piece and maybe even the final piece to. I don't want a one man band like Lebron's Cavs are currently. I want a full team with a chance to do something.

Why should trying to clear cap space preclude them from adding long term pieces? They should be doing both. Holding onto bad contracts, bad players and bad influences just keep doing harm to the franchise and prolongs the rebuild.


what bad pieces am i trying to hold on to? i want to ditch Marbury and ZBo and add Westbrook and JOneal.

I agree with you. I want to try JOneal out because I have a serious belief he can be a major impact frontcourt guy for us for the next five years and help us make a push with whatever FA signing we net in 2010 to an actual run at the Finals. I want JOneal for the long term, but if it doesn't work, we can jettison him in 2010 and sign two FAs.

Agreed.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TMS
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6/17/2008  5:58 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by VDesai:

You wanna know what's simple?

The simple thing would be to face reality that we aren't going to be under the cap or have a shot at lebron, wade or any of those guys in a couple yrs; then send zach home because no one is taking him unless we f--k ourselves even more; then draft someone with the #6. simple.

that's called being a lazy mofo & not earning one's paycheck... there's a difference.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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6/17/2008  6:03 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

the idea that Indiana would trade JOneal for David Lee and then sign David Lee to a big extension seems kinda funny to me. If they're looking to create cap room next summer, why would they want a guy who has an extension kicking in.

re-signing D Lee & dumping JO would give them at least $14-18 mil in cap space next season depending on how they construct his contract.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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6/17/2008  6:04 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:

Oneil's shot at being a franchise player has probably passed, and there is a big risk he will continue to breakdown. The downside? If your just taking on money for the Knicks there is NO downside.

This is what I am talking about. For 28 other teams they would need JO to be the main cog/star/franchise guy, especially for that money. For us we can play him 30 minutes a game and surround him with equal talent.

JO has also been around long enough where he really just want to win. He see's the KGs of the league and wants to be in that situation.

This is why I say we should spend, add these guys with talent that want to win that other teams cant afford, and then balance the roster with young guys we pick up and/or draft.

The downside is even less since his contract expires in 2010. I don't care how much money they spend in 2009 as long as it comes off in 2010.

agreed.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
crzymdups
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6/17/2008  6:05 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by crzymdups:

the idea that Indiana would trade JOneal for David Lee and then sign David Lee to a big extension seems kinda funny to me. If they're looking to create cap room next summer, why would they want a guy who has an extension kicking in.

re-signing D Lee & dumping JO would give them at least $14-18 mil in cap space next season depending on how they construct his contract.

they already have Troy Murphy though, who rebounds as well as Lee does. Everything i've heard says they want to draft a big like Brook Lopez. I have no problem giving them that if we can get Westbrook at 11.
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TMS
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6/17/2008  6:35 PM
what's that got to do w/anything? the matter is cap space we're talking about here... they gain that by making that deal... there is absolutely no logic behind giving up the #6 pick AND taking on a $23 million dollar contract in '09 for a player who's been prone to injury the past few years & has had a significant drop off in production... if Indy wants to get rid of him so badly just giving them that cap space should be more than enough... if anyone should be asking for draft picks here it's the team taking on that albatross.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
crzymdups
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6/17/2008  10:29 PM
Posted by TMS:

what's that got to do w/anything? the matter is cap space we're talking about here... they gain that by making that deal... there is absolutely no logic behind giving up the #6 pick AND taking on a $23 million dollar contract in '09 for a player who's been prone to injury the past few years & has had a significant drop off in production... if Indy wants to get rid of him so badly just giving them that cap space should be more than enough... if anyone should be asking for draft picks here it's the team taking on that albatross.


an albatross who leads the league in blocks? he's 29. this is not ben wallace we're talking about. he's younger than KG.
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Why not keep this whole draft/rebuild thing real simple?
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