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Miami scared to lose Wade to the Knicks?
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fishmike
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5/31/2008  2:06 PM
none of those guys are coming here Isiah fans
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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4949
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5/31/2008  11:09 PM
Posted by fishmike:

none of those guys are coming here Isiah fans

How do you know? And don't call us isiuck fans. That sob can rot in hell.

[Edited by - 4949 on 05-31-2008 11:10 PM]
I'll never trust this' team again.
TMS
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6/1/2008  1:23 AM
fish has a point, as long as we have these unmoveable contracts on the books none of those guys are coming here.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
fishmike
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6/1/2008  10:17 AM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by fishmike:

none of those guys are coming here Isiah fans

How do you know? And don't call us isiuck fans. That sob can rot in hell.

[Edited by - 4949 on 05-31-2008 11:10 PM]
how do you know Jessica Alba isnt knocking on your door because she ran out of sugar and is baking a cake?

Even if we did manage to get max cap space its unrealistic. As I have said before name the superstar FA that has left his team to sign somewhere else since this CBA has been in place. Even before this CBA the only guy was Shaq. Its hard enough to get good FAs, much less stars. The best guys who have signed elsewhere were Nash, Arenas, Joe Johnson and Lamar Odom. Those players left because their current teams didnt want to pay them the same money, or couldnt.

It just doesnt happen... I go back to the Spurs example. You have a building that sells out every game, you have a franchise player (Duncan) already, your going to play for a title every year, and the state doesnt have income tax so your money goes further, and the Spurs still couldnt get guys like Jermaine Oneil and Jason Kidd who they woooed heavily to sign.

But you guys sit here and think you will have the pick of Lebron, Wade, Paul and Howard. Its assanine. Those guys arent even going to be FAs.. they will probably be extended to massive contract before they even hit the market.

It just doesnt happen. Could it? Sure... anything is possible. But I would much rather build a team using the advantages we have over other teams then tank, dump our assets to clear cap space and when those guys decide to sign w/ their current teams be stuck with a roster of an expansion team. Thats just my opinion. If you want to hold out for Lebron good for you. I hope our management is a little more realistic

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Vmart
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6/1/2008  10:46 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by fishmike:

none of those guys are coming here Isiah fans

How do you know? And don't call us isiuck fans. That sob can rot in hell.

[Edited by - 4949 on 05-31-2008 11:10 PM]
how do you know Jessica Alba isnt knocking on your door because she ran out of sugar and is baking a cake?

Even if we did manage to get max cap space its unrealistic. As I have said before name the superstar FA that has left his team to sign somewhere else since this CBA has been in place. Even before this CBA the only guy was Shaq. Its hard enough to get good FAs, much less stars. The best guys who have signed elsewhere were Nash, Arenas, Joe Johnson and Lamar Odom. Those players left because their current teams didnt want to pay them the same money, or couldnt.

It just doesnt happen... I go back to the Spurs example. You have a building that sells out every game, you have a franchise player (Duncan) already, your going to play for a title every year, and the state doesnt have income tax so your money goes further, and the Spurs still couldnt get guys like Jermaine Oneil and Jason Kidd who they woooed heavily to sign.

But you guys sit here and think you will have the pick of Lebron, Wade, Paul and Howard. Its assanine. Those guys arent even going to be FAs.. they will probably be extended to massive contract before they even hit the market.

It just doesnt happen. Could it? Sure... anything is possible. But I would much rather build a team using the advantages we have over other teams then tank, dump our assets to clear cap space and when those guys decide to sign w/ their current teams be stuck with a roster of an expansion team. Thats just my opinion. If you want to hold out for Lebron good for you. I hope our management is a little more realistic

This is the most sensible attitude towards free agency. Fishmike you are one hundred percent right. I hope the Knicks have a better plan than waiting on something that might not even happen. Lets hope that Chandler and this years pick become stars so we don't have to rely on free agency. Free agency is a great place to pick up second tier stars like Rashard Lewis and Boozer players that compliment players already on the team. Its not sensible to think you are going to hit a homerun just because there are major superstars available as free agents. If they are good or injury free then teams go out of their way to make sure they sign the players back. What peope here don't realize is that Cleveland will not let LeBron go, there is no way they do that because he has basically put the team back on the map. The building is sold out nightly and the team is making runs in the playoffs.

Ira
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6/1/2008  11:24 AM
Well said, Fishmike. Signing a star is certainly the longest of shots. But having D'Antoni as coach is a plus in this respect. We saw the way the Bulls players urged Paxon to sign him and heard the way the top rookies felt very good about playing for him. Many players want to play for D'Antoni and many players want to live in New York.

So, it's worth working to get under the cap. As fishmike pointed out, signing a star in free agency or in a sign and trade is a long shot, but the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow (LeBron, Wade, etc) is too tempting to not get in a position to be able to do it. If the rarest of opportunites should strike, we need to be in position to jump on it.
TMS
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6/1/2008  11:45 AM
i have no problem taking on a contract if the guy is worth the dollars fish, but that player has to be good & has to address a need on this roster... what i don't wanna do is take on anymore Jalen Rose/ Steve Francis/ Stephon Marbury/ Malik Rose/ Penny Hardaway/ Zach Randolph/ Eddy Curry/ Jared Jefferies/ Jerome James/ Vin Baker/ Moochie Norris type players w/bloated contracts compared to their actual worth... & i don't wanna give up cap flexibility in 2010 to trade for guys like Vince Carter, Michael Redd, Baron Davis (S&T), etc. either unless we're also unloading a bad contract of our own.

taking on extra salary that expires in 2010 is OK w/me if the player can help us win ballgames, but nothing that goes past that unless we're talking about a franchise calibre talent or pretty darn close to it... a midlevel type player is fine but i just wanna make sure we get good value... no more useless scrubs like Turd & fishlips for the love of God... i don't think that's assanine, more like trying to learn from past mistakes.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Finestrg
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6/1/2008  11:59 AM
Posted by Ira:

Well said, Fishmike. Signing a star is certainly the longest of shots. But having D'Antoni as coach is a plus in this respect. We saw the way the Bulls players urged Paxon to sign him and heard the way the top rookies felt very good about playing for him. Many players want to play for D'Antoni and many players want to live in New York.

So, it's worth working to get under the cap. As fishmike pointed out, signing a star in free agency or in a sign and trade is a long shot, but the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow (LeBron, Wade, etc) is too tempting to not get in a position to be able to do it. If the rarest of opportunites should strike, we need to be in position to jump on it.

Yeah I'm with Ira totally on this one guys. MSG "the mecca of basketball," coach D'Antoni and hopefully a roster that will be in order minus that superstar by the summer of 2011... That would attract me if I were a FA. Look back when Kobe was a FA in 2004 - he and Isiah talked and supposedly had good dialogue but at the end of the day we simply didn't have the cap room to bring him here. Kobe Bryant's not taking the MLE to come play anywhere no matter how attractive the situation might look. But if we did have the cap flexibility who knows..... And we're talking the best player in the league here. It's not as farfetched as it sounds and it's something we should still be working toward.
knicks1248
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6/1/2008  12:10 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by fishmike:

none of those guys are coming here Isiah fans

How do you know? And don't call us isiuck fans. That sob can rot in hell.

[Edited by - 4949 on 05-31-2008 11:10 PM]
how do you know Jessica Alba isnt knocking on your door because she ran out of sugar and is baking a cake?

Even if we did manage to get max cap space its unrealistic. As I have said before name the superstar FA that has left his team to sign somewhere else since this CBA has been in place. Even before this CBA the only guy was Shaq. Its hard enough to get good FAs, much less stars. The best guys who have signed elsewhere were Nash, Arenas, Joe Johnson and Lamar Odom. Those players left because their current teams didnt want to pay them the same money, or couldnt.

It just doesnt happen... I go back to the Spurs example. You have a building that sells out every game, you have a franchise player (Duncan) already, your going to play for a title every year, and the state doesnt have income tax so your money goes further, and the Spurs still couldnt get guys like Jermaine Oneil and Jason Kidd who they woooed heavily to sign.

But you guys sit here and think you will have the pick of Lebron, Wade, Paul and Howard. Its assanine. Those guys arent even going to be FAs.. they will probably be extended to massive contract before they even hit the market.

It just doesnt happen. Could it? Sure... anything is possible. But I would much rather build a team using the advantages we have over other teams then tank, dump our assets to clear cap space and when those guys decide to sign w/ their current teams be stuck with a roster of an expansion team. Thats just my opinion. If you want to hold out for Lebron good for you. I hope our management is a little more realistic

Stock pile, and sign and trade.
ES
4949
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6/1/2008  1:24 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by fishmike:

none of those guys are coming here Isiah fans

How do you know? And don't call us isiuck fans. That sob can rot in hell.

[Edited by - 4949 on 05-31-2008 11:10 PM]
how do you know Jessica Alba isnt knocking on your door because she ran out of sugar and is baking a cake?

Even if we did manage to get max cap space its unrealistic. As I have said before name the superstar FA that has left his team to sign somewhere else since this CBA has been in place.

No fish' you said to name a superstar 'who won a championship' who left their team!

LeBron hasn't won a championship and the way it's going now, he's gonna have to think about his next contract move. I doubt he's gonna win one in the next two seasons.

Kobe considered leaving, but 'we didn't have any money freed up to offer him'. The same thing happened several years ago, when we we're pushing for Webber to come to New York.

It's doesn't happen, because we never have money. THAT'S MY POINT!

KG finally was able to leave and look where he's at now?

It can happen! I believe Walsh is targeting this opportunity, from all account's of what's been happening. What he said in his own words and the fact that there is no talk of major trade rumors, other than around here and maybe the media. But it's not as strong as the last couple of years.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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6/1/2008  1:34 PM
And fish, I'd also like to point out that most of the teams that been competitive, usually had a top draft choice that they acquired in a draft and where able to build around. KG, Duncan, Dirk, Shaq, jordan, Kobe, and so on and so on.

We never get that chance.

So the only way to do it is, to use our HUGE salary in a different way. Make and maintain felxibility. And when opportunities comes up, like a Chris Paul, LeBron James, Dwight Howard who are all going to be at the end up their contracts, then you CAN' and MUST' make a pitch for them!

The fact is, our salary is just too big to make deals like normal teams. Nobody wants our contracts and so unless we make a killing at the bank (Free agents), then you can forget about making any major landings in top draft choices and you can expect to live in mediocracy for the rest or our Knick days.

I will give you the perfect example of what we could have done, versus what we never should have done!

We never' should have offered a five year contract to stephon marbury worth millions. He's making 21 million dollars next year, his last year.

I WANT SOMEONE TO TELL ME THAT WE CAN'T OFFER A SUPERSTAR THAT MUCH?!?!

Guess what? Chris Paul is available after next year. suckbury and Malik are leaving us 28 million after next year. Who says we can't offer Paul about 15 mil a year, for about five years???
I'll never trust this' team again.
joec32033
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6/1/2008  2:32 PM
4949, we never offered Stephon any contract. PHX signed him to that.
~You can't run from who you are.~
4949
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6/1/2008  2:35 PM
Posted by joec32033:

4949, we never offered Stephon any contract. PHX signed him to that.

We still took it and he's playing for us for five years and he's made millions! It's called a sign and trade.

You know what my point is.

[Edited by - 4949 on 06-01-2008 2:38 PM]
I'll never trust this' team again.
Uptown
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6/1/2008  3:32 PM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by joec32033:

4949, we never offered Stephon any contract. PHX signed him to that.

We still took it and he's playing for us for five years and he's made millions! It's called a sign and trade.
You know what my point is.

[Edited by - 4949 on 06-01-2008 2:38 PM]

It wasn't a sign and trade. But I think I get your point. Sort of
4949
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6/1/2008  4:25 PM
Posted by Uptown:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by joec32033:

4949, we never offered Stephon any contract. PHX signed him to that.

We still took it and he's playing for us for five years and he's made millions! It's called a sign and trade.
You know what my point is.

[Edited by - 4949 on 06-01-2008 2:38 PM]

It wasn't a sign and trade. But I think I get your point. Sort of

Then what was it? It said trade, I assume it was a sign and trade according to what JoeC is talking about. I guess I can go research it somewhere, but does it really matter how he got here?

My point is 'if we can pay this guy the kind of money we're paying him, then how come we can't offer and pay a super star the same kind of money?

Why is this so difficult for some of you to understand this concept?
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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6/1/2008  4:28 PM
If we can't acquire super stars as free agents or draft a top draft pick, then how are we ever going to get out of the gutter, by continuing to acquire mediocre bums and locking up our huge salary with very expensive-long term contracts?
I'll never trust this' team again.
TMS
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6/1/2008  6:50 PM
Posted by 4949:

If we can't acquire super stars as free agents or draft a top draft pick, then how are we ever going to get out of the gutter, by continuing to acquire mediocre bums and locking up our huge salary with very expensive-long term contracts?

i think that's the crux of the problem & i agree w/u... we need to continue to stockpile young talent & stop taking on bad contracts so we have some assets to deal should a good player become available in a trade or as a FA... if that player becomes available now i'm open to considering it but what team out there is realistically going to trade us a topnotch talent at this point w/o asking for the absolute moon in terms of our lottery pick & future picks? i don't see Melo coming here anymore than fishmike doesn't see Lebron or Wade coming here in a couple years... we need to acquire some assets & gain the cap flexibility down the road so that we CAN realistically begin to target such players & stop taking on the Zach Randolph's or Jalen Rose's of the NBA... Players w/serious health concerns like TJ Ford & Kenyon Martin who also have longterm contracts should also not be considered unless we're unloading a bad contract of our own... we need to start thinking responsibly about our longterm cap situation & stop looking for the immediate quick fix solution at every turn... any contract that extends beyond 2010 needs to be looked at extremely carefully.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Uptown
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6/1/2008  7:02 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by 4949:

If we can't acquire super stars as free agents or draft a top draft pick, then how are we ever going to get out of the gutter, by continuing to acquire mediocre bums and locking up our huge salary with very expensive-long term contracts?

i think that's the crux of the problem & i agree w/u... we need to continue to stockpile young talent & stop taking on bad contracts so we have some assets to deal should a good player become available in a trade or as a FA... if that player becomes available now i'm open to considering it but what team out there is realistically going to trade us a topnotch talent at this point w/o asking for the absolute moon in terms of our lottery pick & future picks? i don't see Melo coming here anymore than fishmike doesn't see Lebron or Wade coming here in a couple years... we need to acquire some assets & gain the cap flexibility down the road so that we CAN realistically begin to target such players & stop taking on the Zach Randolph's or Jalen Rose's of the NBA... Players w/serious health concerns like TJ Ford & Kenyon Martin who also have longterm contracts should also not be considered unless we're unloading a bad contract of our own... we need to start thinking responsibly about our longterm cap situation & stop looking for the immediate quick fix solution at every turn... any contract that extends beyond 2010 needs to be looked at extremely carefully.


So lets say for argument sake Anthony becomes available. Anthony is 23 yrs old and would be the type of talent Walsh would go after if he is able to get under the cap in 2010. If Walsh goes after him hard this summer, that essentially would be going back on his word in terms of not making any aquisitions that would hurt our chances at lowering the cap over the next 2-3 years. How would Walsh be viewed in the NY/in the papers/by fans for going back on his word?

Isiah pretty much used the same logic when he acquired Marbury. He reasoned that Marbury is the type of talent you go after if you were under the cap anyway. I dont disagree with that logic, but obviously I think most disagree with the personel choice.
4949
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6/1/2008  7:02 PM
It's up to the player himself.

Our management has to make it attractive, to meet them halfway. The odds are never guaranteed, but I do know one thing. If we don't have the money in place and if we don't have a balanced system in place, then those kinds of players will 'never' come here.

TMS spelled it out beautifully.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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6/1/2008  7:10 PM
Posted by Uptown:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by 4949:

If we can't acquire super stars as free agents or draft a top draft pick, then how are we ever going to get out of the gutter, by continuing to acquire mediocre bums and locking up our huge salary with very expensive-long term contracts?

i think that's the crux of the problem & i agree w/u... we need to continue to stockpile young talent & stop taking on bad contracts so we have some assets to deal should a good player become available in a trade or as a FA... if that player becomes available now i'm open to considering it but what team out there is realistically going to trade us a topnotch talent at this point w/o asking for the absolute moon in terms of our lottery pick & future picks? i don't see Melo coming here anymore than fishmike doesn't see Lebron or Wade coming here in a couple years... we need to acquire some assets & gain the cap flexibility down the road so that we CAN realistically begin to target such players & stop taking on the Zach Randolph's or Jalen Rose's of the NBA... Players w/serious health concerns like TJ Ford & Kenyon Martin who also have longterm contracts should also not be considered unless we're unloading a bad contract of our own... we need to start thinking responsibly about our longterm cap situation & stop looking for the immediate quick fix solution at every turn... any contract that extends beyond 2010 needs to be looked at extremely carefully.


So lets say for argument sake Anthony becomes available. Anthony is 23 yrs old and would be the type of talent Walsh would go after if he is able to get under the cap in 2010. If Walsh goes after him hard this summer, that essentially would be going back on his word in terms of not making any aquisitions that would hurt our chances at lowering the cap over the next 2-3 years. How would Walsh be viewed in the NY/in the papers/by fans for going back on his word?

Isiah pretty much used the same logic when he acquired Marbury. He reasoned that Marbury is the type of talent you go after if you were under the cap anyway. I dont disagree with that logic, but obviously I think most disagree with the personel choice.


Your still missing the point of this discussion. Read the foundation ofwhat TMS mentioned. Of what I have been trying to say for the longest time.

We're not talking about any particular deal. We're talking about 'a foundation' to make good deals on. We don't have a healthy foundation to make good deals. The best deals that our money should be able to buy.
I'll never trust this' team again.
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