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TMS
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5/27/2008  1:36 PM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by TMS:

we should draft the player who has the best chance to help this team improve & let the chips fall where they may... going after Lebron or not doesn't weigh into this, that's not gonna have a chance of happening for another couple years.

thanks for the article... at least i'm not the only one who sees a little Toni Kukoc in this kid

Well, here's the thing though. We have a two fold situation. In order to go for someone like LeBron, we have to make this team attractive again. I don't think anyone would be interested, if we don't try to set it up where we can show a player of that caliber, that we mean business and we are just one stars services away from seriously competing.

Letting the chips fall where they may can be a dangerous thing to do, if you ask me. Someone to take this ship and steer it right is long overdue.

taking the BPA is the only thing we can do bro... that in itself will help to address the point of making this team attractive again to players like Lebron, Wade, CP, etc... we can't worry about building a team around a player we don't even have yet.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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4949
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5/27/2008  1:57 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by 4949:

So there you have it. Walsh is going for LeBron. I'm not sure we should draft Gallinari. I really think we should concentrate on a center. I think this would be our best shot at drafting a decent one.

We can pick up guards a dime a dozen the next two years, but a good center is hard to come by.

I just hope we don't go drafting mayo.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/2008/05/21/2008-05-21_mike_dantoni_has_italian_tie_to_draft.html

You can go after him but that doesn't mean your getting him. Keep dreaming 4949 because thats what teams going no where sell to their fans a dream. I would like the Knicks to exercise a plan that doesn't focus on the long shots, because thats what LeBron is a long shot.

Unless you actually have something constructive to add to the conversation, please keep it to yourself. I'm tired of these defeatist attitudes.

its not defeatest... and its a good point. Isiah was long shot after long shot. He tried to catch lightning in a bottle with every trade and what he ended up with was a bunch duds we cant get rid of.

For once we have management experienced in building a TEAM. Lets let them do that. I believe if Dolan had given Walsh unlimited payroll to work with as he gave Isiah we would have a team like Boston has right now. I have no doubt about that. Probably better.

Not only are Lebron and Wade long shots, but they represent something thats never happened in the NBA. No superstar has been lured away from him team like that. The Spurs couldnt get Kidd or Oneil to come win titles with Tim Duncan in a state w/ no income tax.. but we are getting Lebron? Lets sell everything of value and put it on the horse with 25-1 odds. Its a bad plan.

True hope will come with drafting some good young players, making a couple of lateral trades for players that fit better and watching our team actually start to compete and win games. Lebron prob reads this stuff and just laughs his ass off. He's not leaving his home town to play for the Dolans or JayZ, no matter much he likes the Yankees.

Lets build a team.

Well, neither is it constructive information.

It's one thing to end up with a bunch of dudes. I can understand when that happens, unless the player is a well known **** up. It is the fact that isiah could have controlled these contracts much better. Why in the world did he sign them to such long, expensive contracts for? It was totally unnecessary and that's exactly why we've been stuck.

Layden did the same thing with the Houston contract. When isiah came along, I thought it was going to be fixed and he in fact made it all much, much worse. True, you never really know what your going to get, but unless another team is knocking down the door to get what we want, we shouldn't go out of our way to break the bank, sort of speak.

If we had managed the money right in the first place, we would've' had a team like Boston right now. I have no doubt. But I agree, I feel much more comfortable with the management we have right now and believe they will do the right thing.

Oh I don't know, I can name a few guys who've been lured away from other teams. Kareem, Shaq, Rasheed, Benard King, Wilt, Earl 'The Pearl' Monroe, Charles Barkley, as well as others. You guys make it sound like it's impossible to land a superstar in New York.

But if your right about that tax bull crap, etc., if your right about the doom this team has inherited for the next ten years, if your right about it being that much of a long shot, then what is the point of trying anyway??? What is the point of coming to Knick boards and even suggesting such things as bringing a start to New York.

We most certainly will NEVER' get one in the draft! After 60 years of basketball and just one star in Ewing and nothing to show for it? If you guys are right about that, then we aren't NEVER' gonna go anywhere with this team and every body can forget about even thinking about another basketball championship in New York City!

Would you's like me to inherit this defeatist attitude??? Or do you want to talk about putting together a great team and get around the bull****?

And if we do' get LeBron, I'm gonna be laughing my' ass off and I'll stick it to whoever doubted it! I can't believe we are even in disagreement about getting LeBron. Walsh said it with his own words. He's gonna try! Have a little faith why don't ya!!!
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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5/27/2008  2:05 PM
You know I gotta point out also, if we're so broke because of this tax scare' then how in the world did the sign a complete dope like suckbury, who's due to make 21 million next season??? He make more than Duncan and Kobe. How is that possible? Who says we don't have the money and aren't able to make a pitch at LeBron??? I total bull****! We can get LeBron if we really, really want him and if we demand him.

I didn't even mention Jerome, Zach or curry's contracts! Who says we can't get LeBron??? Bull****!
I'll never trust this' team again.
TMS
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5/27/2008  2:08 PM
i don't think we should center our hopes on getting Lebron, but the whole point is to at least have the flexibility when him & the other bignames are able to opt out to at least make a play for 1 of those guys... at least it gives us some nice options later on... we haven't gone anywhere w/the current formula of adding on contracts of players like Marbury, Francis, Rose, Penny, Q Rich, Malik, Zach, etc... i think Walsh realizes this as well.

[Edited by - TMS on 05-27-2008 11:09 AM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
4949
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5/27/2008  2:21 PM
TMS 'you just put the whole scenario into perspective'. I don't think we should put our 'HOPES' into LeBron.

We should put our FOCUS into LeBron, or whoever becomes available during the next two to three years, and whatever superstar wants to come to New York!

You guys have got to stop hoping and start using good old fashioned logic. This can be done, and it all starts with the money being managed correctly.

THE THREE INGREDIENTS:
Manage the money
Make and keep it flex
Be ready when super star free agents become available

Personally, I'd rather have a LeBron instead of a Wade
I'd rather have a Howard, instead of a Paul.
Yes, we should be choosy also!
I want the best the our money has to offer. Nothing less! It is our time.

I'll never trust this' team again.
fishmike
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5/27/2008  3:26 PM
4949... its not a defeatest attitude. Its a constructive point on the best way to build a contender here. I think your suggestion that we build the roster as such so we have a chance to sign one guy is a poor one. I am looking for realistic ways to build a contender. Getting Lebron in 2010 isnt one of them. You mentioned great players switching teams. No superstar has left their respective team in this current CBA. If the Kidd/Oneil examples dont hit home I dont know what will. As for Shaq, Sheed and KG those guys were aquired by teams that stockpiled as many good players as they could, which is EXACTLY what I am suggesting we do.

The fastest way to build a contender here is:
1) draft well with our lottery pick(s)
2) draft well with lower first rounders we can aquire from teams (like Sea) on draft day with cash
3) make some lateral trades for players that better fit into our system
4) take advantage of a team in financial trouble and use expiring contract(s) to get a player another team may not be able to afford (like Det did w/ Sheed, or Jason Richardson)
5) use the MLE and LL to add players with upside or that will really fit into our system (again Det is the model using MLE for Billups and McDyess)
6) good coaching and system to get current players playing better BB, winning more games and improving their stats, in turn increasing their value
7) dump dead weight taking up roster spots (Jerome James for starters)

We finally have the BB know how to build a TEAM here. Lets let them. If we were just going to tank and pray we can draft a star or dump every guy on our roster with a bad contract along with our picks and good players for cap space in 2010 while winning 25 games hoping for a star that wont come then we might as well have stuck w/ Isiah
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TMS
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5/27/2008  3:47 PM
Isiah's never had that frame of mind fish... he's always been about adding contracts to acquire more picks & so far it hasn't worked out for us at all... i agree w/ur opinions about building through the draft but don't you think it's well worth our while to also try & gain some cap flexibility in the process as well? i don't see why we can't do both... i wouldn't wanna give up our only pick in this year's draft to unload a bad contract either, but if we could trade down for an extra pick & use the latter pick to unload a Jefferies or Curry it could help us out in the long run.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
fishmike
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5/27/2008  4:40 PM
at this point no to cap flexibility, as defined by being below or close to the cap #. The reason is we are inbetween with to many players, and have to many that will cost us more to move than to hang onto. Had Isiah been bumped before the Zach/JJ/Eddy deals I would have said yes. That would really just have left Crawford to deal with. But we are stuck because by the time those guys come off we will have to deal with giving our rookies new contracts. What if Lee, Nate Balkman turn out to be bigtime players under Mike D?

I think cap flexibility for us should be avoiding those albatross contracts attached to guys with baggage (injuries or mental).

I think not spending money hurts us. We are the Knicks. It would be nice to see a GM use our resources as an unfair advantage. Isiah's use of it totally backfired.

I would like see Mike D/Walsh build a nice underbelly of young talent on this roster. A real pipeline. Then go and use Garden $$$ for players other teams might be willing to let go off because of their cost. Guys like Jermaine Oneil, Baron Davis, Jason Richardson, Michael Redd. Please not those guys are examples ONLY, and NOT SUGGESTIONS.

I think you can have an $80mm payroll and still be flexible if your payroll is full of good productive players that still have value (see examples above) AND young players with upside (pipeline).

Look at Dallas.. who added guys like Stackhouse, Jamison, Dampier (mistake), Jason Terry, Antoine Walker but ALSO drafted guys like Marquis Daniels, Josh Howard, moving up for Devin Harris. Of course having Dirk helps, but Dallas has ALWAYS be WAY over the cap, yet they remain FLEXIBLE because they add good players, players with value and also focus on the draft and keeping a solid pipeline.

I think that is the model that best suits this franchise.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TrueBlue
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5/27/2008  4:52 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by TrueBlue:

You proved my point. Just because some analyst or writer agrees with your assessment of a player comparison is irrelevant and has no bearing if a player should or shouldn't be picked. It has no bearing if a player will succeed or won't in the NBA or if such player's skill's will translate to the NBA. My whole point of pointing out Bilas was to show someone who probably watches more basketball players in the flesh in one season than all of us combined in the past 7yrs can be just as wrong as the next guy about a prospect. Remember with you it's all about who's seen a player with their own eyes. At least initially many of these Top Analyst and beat writers can be very wrong and are just striking at the wind as the rest of us. You also have to factor in things like the rules of the game are different, being a star over there but not the man over here, their pay, having their coaches over here to properly develop them etc etc.

Let's make this clear on Marcus most wanted him over Balkman that's all and feel he'll be a better prospect than Balk. You're taking the Marcus Willimiams thing just a little too far my friend. Most fans who wanted Marcus felt we could of had both Balkman and Williams. Lo-And-Behold we're still looking for a point guard as we speak 3yrs removed from that draft.


& get it straight TrueBlue, when i bring up the question of whether or not someone has actually seen a player play it's because they're offering up definitive statements that such & such a player will be a bust or plays soft & has no D in his game... i fail to see how such determinations can be reached by watching YouTube clips.

[Edited by - TMS on 05-27-2008 10:51 AM]

I fail to see how the comparisons to Toni Kucok can be made if people haven't seen him play with their own eyes and are going off some Youtube clips or a general sweeping comparison. It only takes one website or analyst to say who a player appears to be similar to and people start to bandwagon the comparisons with no merit whatsoever.

LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
TMS
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5/27/2008  5:29 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by TrueBlue:

You proved my point. Just because some analyst or writer agrees with your assessment of a player comparison is irrelevant and has no bearing if a player should or shouldn't be picked. It has no bearing if a player will succeed or won't in the NBA or if such player's skill's will translate to the NBA. My whole point of pointing out Bilas was to show someone who probably watches more basketball players in the flesh in one season than all of us combined in the past 7yrs can be just as wrong as the next guy about a prospect. Remember with you it's all about who's seen a player with their own eyes. At least initially many of these Top Analyst and beat writers can be very wrong and are just striking at the wind as the rest of us. You also have to factor in things like the rules of the game are different, being a star over there but not the man over here, their pay, having their coaches over here to properly develop them etc etc.

Let's make this clear on Marcus most wanted him over Balkman that's all and feel he'll be a better prospect than Balk. You're taking the Marcus Willimiams thing just a little too far my friend. Most fans who wanted Marcus felt we could of had both Balkman and Williams. Lo-And-Behold we're still looking for a point guard as we speak 3yrs removed from that draft.


& get it straight TrueBlue, when i bring up the question of whether or not someone has actually seen a player play it's because they're offering up definitive statements that such & such a player will be a bust or plays soft & has no D in his game... i fail to see how such determinations can be reached by watching YouTube clips.

[Edited by - TMS on 05-27-2008 10:51 AM]

I fail to see how the comparisons to Toni Kucok can be made if people haven't seen him play with their own eyes and are going off some Youtube clips or a general sweeping comparison. It only takes one website or analyst to say who a player appears to be similar to and people start to bandwagon the comparisons with no merit whatsoever.

u can say a player reminds you of such & such a player off clips, what's wrong with that? i'm talking about the skills that are being shown like his ballhandling, the way he moves around on the floor & his shooting touch, not on what isn't shown like you & some others are doing by saying DG's a soft player that plays no D & would be a complete bust... you & your bandwagon mates seem to be so sure of this fact... not sure how tho... care to enlighten the uneducated among us with your vastly superior talent scouting skills Mr. "Derrick Rose reminds me of Robert Pack"? that "unimpressive prospect" of yours is about to be taken #1 overall btw... but i guess you wanna keep avoiding that one.

u can't seem to get off this notion that people are formulating their entire opinions about a guy off what Jay Bilas says... you're way off dude... where the hell did i ever say i agreed w/Bilas about DG being a better looking prospect than Bargnani? i'm just going off what i've read in scouting reports & what i've seen of him on YouTube just like you... unlike you i never once said this guy would be unworthy of a #6 pick cuz i just don't know & not even pretending to know either way... just saying i see some of the same type of game that i saw in Kukoc... still trying to figure out why you have such a problem with that.

[Edited by - TMS on 05-27-2008 2:34 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Ira
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5/27/2008  5:41 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by 4949:

So there you have it. Walsh is going for LeBron. I'm not sure we should draft Gallinari. I really think we should concentrate on a center. I think this would be our best shot at drafting a decent one.

We can pick up guards a dime a dozen the next two years, but a good center is hard to come by.

I just hope we don't go drafting mayo.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/2008/05/21/2008-05-21_mike_dantoni_has_italian_tie_to_draft.html

You can go after him but that doesn't mean your getting him. Keep dreaming 4949 because thats what teams going no where sell to their fans a dream. I would like the Knicks to exercise a plan that doesn't focus on the long shots, because thats what LeBron is a long shot.

Unless you actually have something constructive to add to the conversation, please keep it to yourself. I'm tired of these defeatist attitudes.

its not defeatest... and its a good point. Isiah was long shot after long shot. He tried to catch lightning in a bottle with every trade and what he ended up with was a bunch duds we cant get rid of.

For once we have management experienced in building a TEAM. Lets let them do that. I believe if Dolan had given Walsh unlimited payroll to work with as he gave Isiah we would have a team like Boston has right now. I have no doubt about that. Probably better.

Not only are Lebron and Wade long shots, but they represent something thats never happened in the NBA. No superstar has been lured away from him team like that. The Spurs couldnt get Kidd or Oneil to come win titles with Tim Duncan in a state w/ no income tax.. but we are getting Lebron? Lets sell everything of value and put it on the horse with 25-1 odds. Its a bad plan.

True hope will come with drafting some good young players, making a couple of lateral trades for players that fit better and watching our team actually start to compete and win games. Lebron prob reads this stuff and just laughs his ass off. He's not leaving his home town to play for the Dolans or JayZ, no matter much he likes the Yankees.

Lets build a team.

fishmike, you make some good points, but some superstars or players close to that have switched teams or have been traded after pressing their team to do it. Kevin Garnett was just traded - and did push for it. Shaquille O'Neal switched teams. That's just off the top of my head. I agree that it's a long shot and your point about true hope coming through the draft is the more likely approach. But getting good cap flexibility makes sense when a top three player like Lebron may soon be available - especially considering that NY is a place that he might want to come too.
Vmart
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5/27/2008  5:55 PM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by 4949:

So there you have it. Walsh is going for LeBron. I'm not sure we should draft Gallinari. I really think we should concentrate on a center. I think this would be our best shot at drafting a decent one.

We can pick up guards a dime a dozen the next two years, but a good center is hard to come by.

I just hope we don't go drafting mayo.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/2008/05/21/2008-05-21_mike_dantoni_has_italian_tie_to_draft.html

You can go after him but that doesn't mean your getting him. Keep dreaming 4949 because thats what teams going no where sell to their fans a dream. I would like the Knicks to exercise a plan that doesn't focus on the long shots, because thats what LeBron is a long shot.

Unless you actually have something constructive to add to the conversation, please keep it to yourself. I'm tired of these defeatist attitudes.

its not defeatest... and its a good point. Isiah was long shot after long shot. He tried to catch lightning in a bottle with every trade and what he ended up with was a bunch duds we cant get rid of.

For once we have management experienced in building a TEAM. Lets let them do that. I believe if Dolan had given Walsh unlimited payroll to work with as he gave Isiah we would have a team like Boston has right now. I have no doubt about that. Probably better.

Not only are Lebron and Wade long shots, but they represent something thats never happened in the NBA. No superstar has been lured away from him team like that. The Spurs couldnt get Kidd or Oneil to come win titles with Tim Duncan in a state w/ no income tax.. but we are getting Lebron? Lets sell everything of value and put it on the horse with 25-1 odds. Its a bad plan.

True hope will come with drafting some good young players, making a couple of lateral trades for players that fit better and watching our team actually start to compete and win games. Lebron prob reads this stuff and just laughs his ass off. He's not leaving his home town to play for the Dolans or JayZ, no matter much he likes the Yankees.

Lets build a team.

Well, neither is it constructive information.

It's one thing to end up with a bunch of dudes. I can understand when that happens, unless the player is a well known **** up. It is the fact that isiah could have controlled these contracts much better. Why in the world did he sign them to such long, expensive contracts for? It was totally unnecessary and that's exactly why we've been stuck.

Layden did the same thing with the Houston contract. When isiah came along, I thought it was going to be fixed and he in fact made it all much, much worse. True, you never really know what your going to get, but unless another team is knocking down the door to get what we want, we shouldn't go out of our way to break the bank, sort of speak.

If we had managed the money right in the first place, we would've' had a team like Boston right now. I have no doubt. But I agree, I feel much more comfortable with the management we have right now and believe they will do the right thing.

Oh I don't know, I can name a few guys who've been lured away from other teams. Kareem, Shaq, Rasheed, Benard King, Wilt, Earl 'The Pearl' Monroe, Charles Barkley, as well as others. You guys make it sound like it's impossible to land a superstar in New York.

But if your right about that tax bull crap, etc., if your right about the doom this team has inherited for the next ten years, if your right about it being that much of a long shot, then what is the point of trying anyway??? What is the point of coming to Knick boards and even suggesting such things as bringing a start to New York.

We most certainly will NEVER' get one in the draft! After 60 years of basketball and just one star in Ewing and nothing to show for it? If you guys are right about that, then we aren't NEVER' gonna go anywhere with this team and every body can forget about even thinking about another basketball championship in New York City!

Would you's like me to inherit this defeatist attitude??? Or do you want to talk about putting together a great team and get around the bull****?

And if we do' get LeBron, I'm gonna be laughing my' ass off and I'll stick it to whoever doubted it! I can't believe we are even in disagreement about getting LeBron. Walsh said it with his own words. He's gonna try! Have a little faith why don't ya!!!

If you can get LeBron then its great. But to constantly state that you want to build a team around a player who may not become a KNicks is more a defeatist attitude then anything else. You are willing to not even try and make moves to improve the Knicks chances of winning in the current is a defeatist attiutude. Its not being negative its not having a defeatist attitude its just the possibility of not getting LeBron which by the way are more unlikely than any trade senarios put up on this board.

You have to try to get better and add players that matter. If the Knicks somehow make smart moves and improve the team with talent level and winning then NY becomes a better destination to lure free agents. If they are down right pitiful then you think LeBron or Wade are gonna look at NYK as a likely destination, I highly doubt it because free agents of LeBron or Wade quality are gonna go to place with everything set for the win now mentality that goes with tenure in the NBA.

Another thing you want to lure LeBron to NY by selling the city and what it could mean for his image and sales of his products, you think a man who is gonna command close to $200 million cntract is gonna worry about product sales I highly doubt it. He can do what he does in Cleveland and still make the same amount of money.
TrueBlue
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5/27/2008  6:51 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by TrueBlue:

You proved my point. Just because some analyst or writer agrees with your assessment of a player comparison is irrelevant and has no bearing if a player should or shouldn't be picked. It has no bearing if a player will succeed or won't in the NBA or if such player's skill's will translate to the NBA. My whole point of pointing out Bilas was to show someone who probably watches more basketball players in the flesh in one season than all of us combined in the past 7yrs can be just as wrong as the next guy about a prospect. Remember with you it's all about who's seen a player with their own eyes. At least initially many of these Top Analyst and beat writers can be very wrong and are just striking at the wind as the rest of us. You also have to factor in things like the rules of the game are different, being a star over there but not the man over here, their pay, having their coaches over here to properly develop them etc etc.

Let's make this clear on Marcus most wanted him over Balkman that's all and feel he'll be a better prospect than Balk. You're taking the Marcus Willimiams thing just a little too far my friend. Most fans who wanted Marcus felt we could of had both Balkman and Williams. Lo-And-Behold we're still looking for a point guard as we speak 3yrs removed from that draft.


& get it straight TrueBlue, when i bring up the question of whether or not someone has actually seen a player play it's because they're offering up definitive statements that such & such a player will be a bust or plays soft & has no D in his game... i fail to see how such determinations can be reached by watching YouTube clips.

[Edited by - TMS on 05-27-2008 10:51 AM]

I fail to see how the comparisons to Toni Kucok can be made if people haven't seen him play with their own eyes and are going off some Youtube clips or a general sweeping comparison. It only takes one website or analyst to say who a player appears to be similar to and people start to bandwagon the comparisons with no merit whatsoever.

u can say a player reminds you of such & such a player off clips, what's wrong with that? i'm talking about the skills that are being shown like his ballhandling, the way he moves around on the floor & his shooting touch, not on what isn't shown like you & some others are doing by saying DG's a soft player that plays no D & would be a complete bust... you & your bandwagon mates seem to be so sure of this fact... not sure how tho... care to enlighten the uneducated among us with your vastly superior talent scouting skills Mr. "Derrick Rose reminds me of Robert Pack"? that "unimpressive prospect" of yours is about to be taken #1 overall btw... but i guess you wanna keep avoiding that one.

u can't seem to get off this notion that people are formulating their entire opinions about a guy off what Jay Bilas says... you're way off dude... where the hell did i ever say i agreed w/Bilas about DG being a better looking prospect than Bargnani? i'm just going off what i've read in scouting reports & what i've seen of him on YouTube just like you... unlike you i never once said this guy would be unworthy of a #6 pick cuz i just don't know & not even pretending to know either way... just saying i see some of the same type of game that i saw in Kukoc... still trying to figure out why you have such a problem with that.

[Edited by - TMS on 05-27-2008 2:34 PM]

I'm all for being critiqued on player comparisons. You seem to have a problem with it. I've stated over and over Rose will go Top 2 in the draft. I just don't think he's going to be good as people think he is. I've said I could be wrong. But I'm not going to bandwagon a player and try to find all these redeeming qualities in a player just because our org may be interested in him. No one was discussing DG and looking at his potential except maybe one poster(possibly Briggs?) before D'Antoni was hired. I'm just waiting for the next player our org gives a clue in on drafting and for this board to light up like a Christmas Tree with posters scouring the Web for all the positives things they like about the guy.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
TMS
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5/27/2008  7:00 PM
still waiting on you to point out how i'm bandwagoning DG based on Bilas' comments... i made a vague comparison to Kukoc's style of game but you seem to think that qualifies me as a bandwagoner of Bilas' Bargnani comparison... i guess player comparisons are only OK when you're the one making them & you're only allowed to make negative commentary on a player we all have limited knowledge about... gotcha... funny that you're not saying jack about anyone claiming to know DG's gonna be a huge bust here, but have a problem with people saying he might be a talented player based on the exact same information that's available to us.

[Edited by - TMS on 05-27-2008 4:05 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
fishmike
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5/27/2008  7:02 PM
Posted by Ira:
fishmike, you make some good points, but some superstars or players close to that have switched teams or have been traded after pressing their team to do it. Kevin Garnett was just traded - and did push for it. Shaquille O'Neal switched teams. That's just off the top of my head. I agree that it's a long shot and your point about true hope coming through the draft is the more likely approach. But getting good cap flexibility makes sense when a top three player like Lebron may soon be available - especially considering that NY is a place that he might want to come too.
no no no... you got me wrong. No superstar has left and SIGNED with another team, certainly none that won a title. My point is its essentially impossible to lure a star free agent from his team. You look at the closest examples are guys like KMart, Nash and Arenas, and all those guys came from teams that either didnt want to pay them or couldnt (Gilbert)

So my point is our best bet is to stockpile good players (even if they are well paid) and good young talent, build a team and go from there. I think we are on the same page... this is just one fella's opinion

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
knicks1248
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5/27/2008  11:25 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Ira:
fishmike, you make some good points, but some superstars or players close to that have switched teams or have been traded after pressing their team to do it. Kevin Garnett was just traded - and did push for it. Shaquille O'Neal switched teams. That's just off the top of my head. I agree that it's a long shot and your point about true hope coming through the draft is the more likely approach. But getting good cap flexibility makes sense when a top three player like Lebron may soon be available - especially considering that NY is a place that he might want to come too.
no no no... you got me wrong. No superstar has left and SIGNED with another team, certainly none that won a title. My point is its essentially impossible to lure a star free agent from his team. You look at the closest examples are guys like KMart, Nash and Arenas, and all those guys came from teams that either didnt want to pay them or couldnt (Gilbert)

So my point is our best bet is to stockpile good players (even if they are well paid) and good young talent, build a team and go from there. I think we are on the same page... this is just one fella's opinion

Your right because there is no way the knicks recieve any superstar with out a trade. So you can keep trying tp get under the cap all you want, be a lottery team or the next 3 years and wait for your night in shinning armor, but reality is what it is you have to spend money to make money. Only in sports you never seem to get what you pay for and it is very easy to make a bad move, as easy as it is to make no move, both can lead up to a disaster, as we all have witness.

Having a supstar such as ....let me see....a patrick ew, or a reggie, malone, ect, doesn't mean nothing but but a extra month or two of basketball, the championships are not a lock by far.
ES
4949
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5/28/2008  10:31 AM
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by 4949:

So there you have it. Walsh is going for LeBron. I'm not sure we should draft Gallinari. I really think we should concentrate on a center. I think this would be our best shot at drafting a decent one.

We can pick up guards a dime a dozen the next two years, but a good center is hard to come by.

I just hope we don't go drafting mayo.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/2008/05/21/2008-05-21_mike_dantoni_has_italian_tie_to_draft.html

You can go after him but that doesn't mean your getting him. Keep dreaming 4949 because thats what teams going no where sell to their fans a dream. I would like the Knicks to exercise a plan that doesn't focus on the long shots, because thats what LeBron is a long shot.

Unless you actually have something constructive to add to the conversation, please keep it to yourself. I'm tired of these defeatist attitudes.

its not defeatest... and its a good point. Isiah was long shot after long shot. He tried to catch lightning in a bottle with every trade and what he ended up with was a bunch duds we cant get rid of.

For once we have management experienced in building a TEAM. Lets let them do that. I believe if Dolan had given Walsh unlimited payroll to work with as he gave Isiah we would have a team like Boston has right now. I have no doubt about that. Probably better.

Not only are Lebron and Wade long shots, but they represent something thats never happened in the NBA. No superstar has been lured away from him team like that. The Spurs couldnt get Kidd or Oneil to come win titles with Tim Duncan in a state w/ no income tax.. but we are getting Lebron? Lets sell everything of value and put it on the horse with 25-1 odds. Its a bad plan.

True hope will come with drafting some good young players, making a couple of lateral trades for players that fit better and watching our team actually start to compete and win games. Lebron prob reads this stuff and just laughs his ass off. He's not leaving his home town to play for the Dolans or JayZ, no matter much he likes the Yankees.

Lets build a team.

Well, neither is it constructive information.

It's one thing to end up with a bunch of dudes. I can understand when that happens, unless the player is a well known **** up. It is the fact that isiah could have controlled these contracts much better. Why in the world did he sign them to such long, expensive contracts for? It was totally unnecessary and that's exactly why we've been stuck.

Layden did the same thing with the Houston contract. When isiah came along, I thought it was going to be fixed and he in fact made it all much, much worse. True, you never really know what your going to get, but unless another team is knocking down the door to get what we want, we shouldn't go out of our way to break the bank, sort of speak.

If we had managed the money right in the first place, we would've' had a team like Boston right now. I have no doubt. But I agree, I feel much more comfortable with the management we have right now and believe they will do the right thing.

Oh I don't know, I can name a few guys who've been lured away from other teams. Kareem, Shaq, Rasheed, Benard King, Wilt, Earl 'The Pearl' Monroe, Charles Barkley, as well as others. You guys make it sound like it's impossible to land a superstar in New York.

But if your right about that tax bull crap, etc., if your right about the doom this team has inherited for the next ten years, if your right about it being that much of a long shot, then what is the point of trying anyway??? What is the point of coming to Knick boards and even suggesting such things as bringing a start to New York.

We most certainly will NEVER' get one in the draft! After 60 years of basketball and just one star in Ewing and nothing to show for it? If you guys are right about that, then we aren't NEVER' gonna go anywhere with this team and every body can forget about even thinking about another basketball championship in New York City!

Would you's like me to inherit this defeatist attitude??? Or do you want to talk about putting together a great team and get around the bull****?

And if we do' get LeBron, I'm gonna be laughing my' ass off and I'll stick it to whoever doubted it! I can't believe we are even in disagreement about getting LeBron. Walsh said it with his own words. He's gonna try! Have a little faith why don't ya!!!

If you can get LeBron then its great. But to constantly state that you want to build a team around a player who may not become a KNicks is more a defeatist attitude then anything else. You are willing to not even try and make moves to improve the Knicks chances of winning in the current is a defeatist attiutude. Its not being negative its not having a defeatist attitude its just the possibility of not getting LeBron which by the way are more unlikely than any trade senarios put up on this board.

You have to try to get better and add players that matter. If the Knicks somehow make smart moves and improve the team with talent level and winning then NY becomes a better destination to lure free agents. If they are down right pitiful then you think LeBron or Wade are gonna look at NYK as a likely destination, I highly doubt it because free agents of LeBron or Wade quality are gonna go to place with everything set for the win now mentality that goes with tenure in the NBA.

Another thing you want to lure LeBron to NY by selling the city and what it could mean for his image and sales of his products, you think a man who is gonna command close to $200 million cntract is gonna worry about product sales I highly doubt it. He can do what he does in Cleveland and still make the same amount of money.

Your not making any sense V. This article was for someone who I felt was being a little negative about what I was trying to say. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but your twisting the whole thing up and taking it to another level. Stick to the subject and WTF! Let's talk about making this team REAL! What are you fighting me' for??? A few people here are more interested in what we can't' do, compared to what is possible. To me, that's self defeating. If you offer 'better solutions' to the problems, then I'm all ears. It doesn't necessarily mean that I'll agree, but at least we'd be talking about solutions (arguing over them) rather then for me, struggling to figuring out why people don't think it's possible and left with a 'it will never happen'.

Fair?
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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5/28/2008  10:47 AM
Posted by fishmike:

4949... its not a defeatest attitude. Its a constructive point on the best way to build a contender here. I think your suggestion that we build the roster as such so we have a chance to sign one guy is a poor one. I am looking for realistic ways to build a contender. Getting Lebron in 2010 isnt one of them. You mentioned great players switching teams. No superstar has left their respective team in this current CBA. If the Kidd/Oneil examples dont hit home I dont know what will. As for Shaq, Sheed and KG those guys were aquired by teams that stockpiled as many good players as they could, which is EXACTLY what I am suggesting we do.

The fastest way to build a contender here is:
1) draft well with our lottery pick(s)
2) draft well with lower first rounders we can aquire from teams (like Sea) on draft day with cash
3) make some lateral trades for players that better fit into our system
4) take advantage of a team in financial trouble and use expiring contract(s) to get a player another team may not be able to afford (like Det did w/ Sheed, or Jason Richardson)
5) use the MLE and LL to add players with upside or that will really fit into our system (again Det is the model using MLE for Billups and McDyess)
6) good coaching and system to get current players playing better BB, winning more games and improving their stats, in turn increasing their value
7) dump dead weight taking up roster spots (Jerome James for starters)

We finally have the BB know how to build a TEAM here. Lets let them. If we were just going to tank and pray we can draft a star or dump every guy on our roster with a bad contract along with our picks and good players for cap space in 2010 while winning 25 games hoping for a star that wont come then we might as well have stuck w/ Isiah

My only point about a defeatist attitude is 'there are a few people here who come out and bash an idea with such lines like 'it will never work' or 'stop making these ridiculous scenarios up'. They offer no other suggestion to the idea, no thoughts, no better ideas or even 'why' it won't work. That's all I was trying to say in my explanation of 'defeatist attitude'. There is one who tried to 'explain to me' what I meant by that term. I already know what I mean by that term, because I'm the one who spoke out about it.

All I'm saying to each and everyone of you is, rather than bash someone's big idea (and note, I said big' idea, not just an idea) over the head, with the nearest frying pan, offer a better solution to the idea or if your going to say 'it will never work' then please explain why! I'm no angel. I have hit many over the head, but I also believe the majority of time, if not all of the time, I have tried to at least explain why' (in detail) it won't work. As a matter of fact, I need to live more of what I preach around here. So I admit my own guilt sometimes.

I just think it makes for better communication and I believe with better communication, we can come to more agreements. I think it's fair to say that no one can accuse me of ever going for anything less than the best. I pushed for Kobe, just as I am pushing for LeBron, and unless Walsh says with his own words that LeBron is off the table, then I'm all ears.

Granted, maybe some people here just don't want to constantly hear his name everyday. I get a little tired myself, I admit, and won't beat it to death. Hope that explains my thoughts on the subjects.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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5/28/2008  11:09 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Ira:
fishmike, you make some good points, but some superstars or players close to that have switched teams or have been traded after pressing their team to do it. Kevin Garnett was just traded - and did push for it. Shaquille O'Neal switched teams. That's just off the top of my head. I agree that it's a long shot and your point about true hope coming through the draft is the more likely approach. But getting good cap flexibility makes sense when a top three player like Lebron may soon be available - especially considering that NY is a place that he might want to come too.
no no no... you got me wrong. No superstar has left and SIGNED with another team, certainly none that won a title. My point is its essentially impossible to lure a star free agent from his team. You look at the closest examples are guys like KMart, Nash and Arenas, and all those guys came from teams that either didnt want to pay them or couldnt (Gilbert)

So my point is our best bet is to stockpile good players (even if they are well paid) and good young talent, build a team and go from there. I think we are on the same page... this is just one fella's opinion

But you said it with your own words. No super star has ever left a team 'that won a championship'. LeBron hasn't and may not. As long as he doesn't then it is very possible he may want to leave Cleveland. I made list earlier, citing Kareem, Barkley and a few others. Hell, when the Knicks won those two Championships in the early 70's, they lured a star away, in the name of Earl 'The Pearl' Monroe. We got Benard King from NJ and he put us on the map, until his major injury.

So it is very' possible and not' impossible to bring a star to New York. Unless someone (for some strange reason) is just dead set against it. I think Wade could've been one, since he has a ring and since Shaq left, it was possible, but now they have the 2nd pick and most likely, he's not going anywhere.

As long as we are on our way to making the cap space good, and maintaining it that way', a few of these stars are gonna bite. In my opinion, this is the 'ONLY WAY' it will ever work, because having such a large salary is our 'bread and butter'. That's our strength and maintaining it is always gonna be the critical part of us having any strength to acquire real talent for this team.

And don't forget. Paul and Howard are non-championed players also, as well as many others. If the atmosphere is right, the money is there and the marketing potential is sold to these guys, sooner or later, they are going to start biting. I think many have been so Laydenized and isiahcized that they are brain dead to these kinds of ideas. I can't blame them. But it is time to recondition the Knick fan into believing once again.

All in all, the best thing that is happening now is the new brass is going to create an atmosphere that is going to be likable and well respected. In other words, Walsh and D'Antoni should be able to bring respectability back to this franchise. And that could be a key to making someone like LeBron interested. You make a good point about superstars who won a ring and never left. Let's hope he doesn't win a championshiop in the next two years. Let's hope non of them do. At least until we get them, and then maybe we can start talking championship then.

I also like the idea of 'stock piling' good players. I think your on the right road fish.
I'll never trust this' team again.
TMS
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5/28/2008  4:09 PM
i don't see why it's not feasible to try & accomplish both... we can keep drafting intelligently & leave ourselves open to making smart trades to try & unload some salary if a deal presents itself, or to acquire a stud player via trade using our expirings &/or picks if we need to... the one thing we absolutely must avoid is the moronic Zach Randolph type "let's just get a name & get the fans excited for no reason" type trades to get players that will not help this team improve or address any needs whatsoever & just ends up fugging up our cap for years to come

it's always good to have options, & something that opens up a ton of options for a franchise is having the cap flexibility to make deals & signings as well as quality young players that are gotten in the draft.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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