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It's the teams that play Great Defense that always win the titles
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TrueBlue
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5/20/2008  3:36 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by eViL:
Posted by islesfan:

Can you answer this question for me now:

Why didn't D'Antoni put more of an emphasis on defense or look to acquire better defensive players, despite having had several seasons to have done so but never did?

Why did the Suns lack of defense continue to be the reason for their demise season after season?

Defensive pick ups always work (see: Chicago Bulls, Ben Wallace)

See Boston Celtics Kevin Garnett

KG helped obviously but bringing in Tom Thibodeau to implement a team wide defensive philosophy was a bigger reason for their turnaround.


I support this wholeheartedly but I was showing an example in which getting a defensive minded player helps just as much. Evil was trying to debunk your theory bringing in defensive players proves not to work.
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TrueBlue
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5/20/2008  3:40 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by TrueBlue:

Man if Tim Thomas wouldn't have hit that three how much of a flop would D'Antoni be?

that's sorta like saying how much of a flop would JVG have been in NY if Allan Houston doesn't make the big shot vs. the Heat in '99, isn't it? bottomline, a coach's job is to prepare his team to be in a position to win games every night... after that it's up to the players to execute... there's more than a few NBA championship winning coaches who can trace back some big shots made by guys that has swung an entire series in their favor... ask Phil Jax how big that shot made by John Paxson was to the Bulls that year, or how huge Michael Jordan's shots have been to his coaching success over the years... how big was Robert Horry's big 3's to the championship winning Spurs & Lakers when he played for them? how big was Sam Cassell to the Rockets when they beat us in '94? u could go on & on w/this... it's silly to make such analogies when judging the quality of a coach.


No it's not sorta like saying that because of how they got to that point. If you look back at that series they played an inexperienced Laker team Sans Kobe and Phil and let Kwame and Smush Parker of all players beast on them. Kobe imploded in Game 7 but if he would of had his head on straight like he does now they would have got bounced in the first round.


[Edited by - TrueBlue on 05-20-2008 2:28 PM]

if Allan Houston doesn't make that shot the Knicks get bounced in the first round too... i fail to see a big difference there... bottomline is it's not the coach's job to make the shots on the floor, it's up to the players to do that... Kobe imploding doesn't reflect on Phil Jackson anymore than if he'd have stepped up & won game 7 for them does... you can try to find reasons to justify your argument til you're blue in the face but players executing on the floor is what it all boils down to.

Agreed and players who allow Kwame Brown and Smush Parker to go off and Tony Parker to go for 41pts and 30+ in 5gms during a first round and allowing a player like Jason Terry to increase his production hundredfold not good is what it boils down to.
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fishmike
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5/20/2008  3:42 PM
its brief but look: all the guy tried to do was add some defensive role players

http://hoopshype.com/general_managers/mike_dantoni.htm

So lets sum up:
Mike D puts a system in place that produces tons of wins, a coach of a year award and two MVPs. Also players had more all star appearances under him than any other coach

During a very short stint as GM Mike D recognizes the defensive weaknesses in his team and does is best to add players with those skills.

Mike D hired by Walsh and Colengelo

Mike D = good.

Other things that are good: ice cream, boobies, beer and the Knicks playing for a title
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TMS
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5/20/2008  3:46 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by TMS:
players executing on the floor is what it all boils down to.

Agreed and players who allow Kwame Brown and Smush Parker to go off and Tony Parker to go for 41pts and 30+ in 5gms during a first round and allowing a player like Jason Terry to increase his production hundredfold not good is what it boils down to.

i think you just debunked your own original argument.
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eViL
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5/20/2008  3:47 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by eViL:
Posted by islesfan:

Can you answer this question for me now:

Why didn't D'Antoni put more of an emphasis on defense or look to acquire better defensive players, despite having had several seasons to have done so but never did?

Why did the Suns lack of defense continue to be the reason for their demise season after season?

Defensive pick ups always work (see: Chicago Bulls, Ben Wallace)

Asking 1 guy to play defense for the entire team is doomed for failure.

Getting your entire team to play good defense has a greater rate of success.

Absolutely. Team defense is very important. No one will argue against that.

However, defense is only one factor at play in the big picture of a championship basketball season. Winning championships is hard. Not many coaches accomplish it. Jerry Sloan is one of the best in the business, isn't he? Has he won one? Does he teach defense? Did he have superstars? It's hard to pull off. By boiling it down to simply preaching defense, the coaching game is over-simplified. There are many reasons teams win and lose.

D'Antoni said that the team almost exclusively focused on defense in practice because they were already great on offense. How am I supposed to say whether or not he coached defense properly or often enough?

In the playoff thread, you had the Suns beating the Spurs in the first round. Did you think the Suns were a better defensive team? Why did you think they would win?
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fishmike
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5/20/2008  3:56 PM
In the playoff thread, you had the Suns beating the Spurs in the first round. Did you think the Suns were a better defensive team? Why did you think they would win?
Do tell... How could this gimmicky coach accomplish such a thing? You predicted it. Do explain
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
islesfan
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5/20/2008  3:57 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:

also every anti Mike D poster still doesnt address this question:

You have Nash, Amare, Q, Marion, etc what kind of system do YOU put in place to win the most games?

Sorry.. Mike D did a great job coaching that team. Two of the NBA's best GMs have hired him.

That's easy. I would have let Nash run but I would have demanded and put more of an emphasis on defense.

Can you answer this question for me now:

Why didn't D'Antoni put more of an emphasis on defense or look to acquire better defensive players, despite having had several seasons to have done so but never did?

Why did the Suns lack of defense continue to be the reason for their demise season after season?
actually.. thats EXACTLY what he did. Mike's two moves as interim GM were he extended Diaw and signed Marcus Banks to the full MLE. That didnt turn out to be a very good move but he recognized the team's need to improve defense and went out and got Banks. Kurt Thomas as well. Those are facts. Saying Mike D didnt tell his team to defend is speculation.

No it's not. It's not speculation to say that D'Antoni didn't stress defense as much as he should have when every single year their defense cost them in the playoffs.

Here's a simple question, watching the Suns all those years, did you ever think that they were a good defensive team? Did you ever think that they needed to play much better defensively?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
djsunyc
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5/20/2008  3:58 PM
i think a team that plays really hard on the defensive end has a better chance to overachieve w/o star players. a good example are the sixers this season and the bulls the past few years. no outstanding players, but they work you defensively every possession. if you can produce decently on the offense as well, you will win more than you lose. the epitome of this is detroit.

a team that plays really good offensively has a chance to overachieve as well (i.e. warriors). but i think it's tougher. if your shots don't fall one night, you probably get blown out. but if you have a really good defensive team and your shots aren't falling, you can still hang around in the game and have a shot to *sneak* out with a victory.

but unless you excel in one portion and are better than average in the other portion, the chances for deep advancement in the playoffs are slim.

suns were a premiere offensive team with premiere offensive players. that's what seperated them from the pack and put them in a top 5 category in the league. but if they didn't have those premiere players, there's a good chance they could basically be another version of golden state.

i think d'antoni is a good coach. and i think he's a coach you hire if you want to create some excitement in the way the team plays. transition game appeals to many fans and if the knicks can achieve golden state level, then it should be deemed a success. and i think that's what the knicks are trying to do. get back to respectability and generate some excitement.

if walsh can give d'antoni quality players, then the team will succeed. title aspirations? well that comes down to this draft pick. better hope it's a homerun or else it really doesn't matter who the coach is.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 05-20-2008 3:59 PM]
islesfan
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5/20/2008  4:04 PM
Posted by Uptown:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:

sure.. why dont you revive this thread when we have a championship caliber roster, are winning 55 and 60 games a year but losing in the ECF finals year after year under Mike D.

Sound good?

Actually, being a pretender that loses year after year doesn't sound very good to me.

I'm not sure why that would sound good to anybody.


Define loses? Do you mean any team that walk away with the 'Chip' in june is a pretender?

Teams that beat up on the weak and mediocre teams during the regular season and perhaps even in the 1st round of the playoffs and then not putting up much of a fight against the teams that are competing for championships, are pretenders.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
fishmike
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5/20/2008  4:05 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:

also every anti Mike D poster still doesnt address this question:

You have Nash, Amare, Q, Marion, etc what kind of system do YOU put in place to win the most games?

Sorry.. Mike D did a great job coaching that team. Two of the NBA's best GMs have hired him.

That's easy. I would have let Nash run but I would have demanded and put more of an emphasis on defense.

Can you answer this question for me now:

Why didn't D'Antoni put more of an emphasis on defense or look to acquire better defensive players, despite having had several seasons to have done so but never did?

Why did the Suns lack of defense continue to be the reason for their demise season after season?
actually.. thats EXACTLY what he did. Mike's two moves as interim GM were he extended Diaw and signed Marcus Banks to the full MLE. That didnt turn out to be a very good move but he recognized the team's need to improve defense and went out and got Banks. Kurt Thomas as well. Those are facts. Saying Mike D didnt tell his team to defend is speculation.

No it's not. It's not speculation to say that D'Antoni didn't stress defense as much as he should have when every single year their defense cost them in the playoffs.

Here's a simple question, watching the Suns all those years, did you ever think that they were a good defensive team? Did you ever think that they needed to play much better defensively?
No.. I thought the focus was exactly where it should be. The Suns had small players and their stress was on overplaying the passing lanes, taking risks to get blocked shots and cleaning the defensive glass. Their defense was designed to create turnovers, clean the defensive glass and in turn generate quick offense the other way. I would NOT want to see my 6'7 skinny PF (Marion)or my 6'10 center (Amare) locking bodies in M2M battles for 40 minutes a night against the bigs of the Western Conference where they would be tired on the other end. That would be bad coaching.

Just because the Suns didnt play defense like the 99 Knicks doesnt mean a plan or concept was not in place. You dont win 60 plus games and go to the conference finals year after year by ignoring defense.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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5/20/2008  4:08 PM
i would say the suns style of play was the vision of bryan colangelo. he wanted a free flowing offensive team that can score from every position.

and he found a coach that maximized that style of play.

what vision does walsh have for this team? and if it's different, can d'antoni coach it? tbd.
fishmike
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5/20/2008  4:09 PM
Posted by islesfan:


Teams that beat up on the weak and mediocre teams during the regular season and perhaps even in the 1st round of the playoffs and then not putting up much of a fight against the teams that are competing for championships, are pretenders.
so why again did you pick them to beat the Spurs this year? The Suns beat some good teams during their playoff runs.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
islesfan
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5/20/2008  4:10 PM
Posted by eViL:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by eViL:
Posted by islesfan:

Can you answer this question for me now:

Why didn't D'Antoni put more of an emphasis on defense or look to acquire better defensive players, despite having had several seasons to have done so but never did?

Why did the Suns lack of defense continue to be the reason for their demise season after season?

Defensive pick ups always work (see: Chicago Bulls, Ben Wallace)

Asking 1 guy to play defense for the entire team is doomed for failure.

Getting your entire team to play good defense has a greater rate of success.

Absolutely. Team defense is very important. No one will argue against that.

However, defense is only one factor at play in the big picture of a championship basketball season. Winning championships is hard. Not many coaches accomplish it. Jerry Sloan is one of the best in the business, isn't he? Has he won one? Does he teach defense? Did he have superstars? It's hard to pull off. By boiling it down to simply preaching defense, the coaching game is over-simplified. There are many reasons teams win and lose.

D'Antoni said that the team almost exclusively focused on defense in practice because they were already great on offense. How am I supposed to say whether or not he coached defense properly or often enough?

In the playoff thread, you had the Suns beating the Spurs in the first round. Did you think the Suns were a better defensive team? Why did you think they would win?

Yes, defense is one factor but it just so happens that it is the one common factor amongst all Championship teams. That gives it a much greater value. I'm not saying that it's as simple as playing defense, like you said it's a factor. But coaches who completely ignore it or just pay lip service to it, are just fooling themselves.

"How am I supposed to say whether or not he coached defense properly or often enough? "

Just open watch his teams play.

I had the Suns beating the Spurs because I hate the Spurs and didn't want to see them get any further.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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5/20/2008  4:10 PM
Posted by fishmike:
In the playoff thread, you had the Suns beating the Spurs in the first round. Did you think the Suns were a better defensive team? Why did you think they would win?
Do tell... How could this gimmicky coach accomplish such a thing? You predicted it. Do explain

Just did.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
nyk4ever
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5/20/2008  4:12 PM
Ugh this thread again?
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TrueBlue
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5/20/2008  4:16 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by TMS:
players executing on the floor is what it all boils down to.

Agreed and players who allow Kwame Brown and Smush Parker to go off and Tony Parker to go for 41pts and 30+ in 5gms during a first round and allowing a player like Jason Terry to increase his production hundredfold not good is what it boils down to.

i think you just debunked your own original argument.

No I didn't because who enables those players to play that poorly......The coach. Isn't this why Phil gets the credit he gets because he knows how to get players to execute his system and knows how to mesh great talents together so that they perform at their best? D'Antoni failed miserably at this come playoff time.

So according to you we better not trade for any Suns player but hiring the coach is aye O.K.

There's blame to be placed in that organization including the players but D'Antoni deserves a lot of it because it went on yr after yr.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 05-20-2008 3:19 PM]
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newyorknewyork
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5/20/2008  4:18 PM
They go hand and hand. You need superstar and a team that can get critical stops. But you must be able to get stops when you need it. Spurs,Heat,Lakers have all been able to get critical stops when they needed it. While Wade-Shaq, Parker-Ginobli-Duncan, Kobe-Shaq where able to put up big pts.

When Suns traded Joe Johnson they went after Raja Bell & took back Boris Diaw both were role playing defenders. They also signed or traded for Steven Hunter who is a rebounder shot blocker specialist. Also signed Marcus Banks who is a defensive specialist at the PG position behind Nash. The suns definatly tried to add some defensive role players to the team.

The problem is they had nobody that could own the glass like a Duncan or Shaq & even Wallace in Detroit could down the stretch of games. And they had nobody that would be the defensive presence in the paint they needed in critical times the way that Shaq & Duncan could & Wallace did. If Amare was cappable of doing so then they probably would have gotten some championships and Amare would be known as that elite championship superstar but his inability to do so is what holds him back from being that. That and the fact that he can't run an offense through the post, but Nash more then made up for that.
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fishmike
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5/20/2008  4:18 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Yes, defense is one factor but it just so happens that it is the one common factor amongst all Championship teams.
that my friend is where your wrong. As I mentioned before the common factor is every title winning team had the best player in the NBA, or surely on of the best 3. Again, the common factor is MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan and Hakeem. Those 5 guys account for 16 of the 17 titles.

Phil Jackson NEVER stressed defense. He stressed the triangle offense. He had average at best interior defenders in Chi in Cartwright, Grant, Rodman, Longley, Purdue. Rodman pulled on the Mailman's shorts and Shaw clogged the lane. MJ and Scottie were great defenders but the Bulls or Lakers were not regarded as defensive teams.

The Rockets and Spurs obviously are, but once again.. they are built around STARS who were all world defenders in Tim/Hakeem.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
newyorknewyork
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5/20/2008  4:23 PM
And when Im talking about Shaq im not talking about the run down Shaq last yr im talking about Shaq with Lakers & Heat when he won championships.
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islesfan
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5/20/2008  4:26 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by islesfan:
Yes, defense is one factor but it just so happens that it is the one common factor amongst all Championship teams.
that my friend is where your wrong. As I mentioned before the common factor is every title winning team had the best player in the NBA, or surely on of the best 3. Again, the common factor is MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan and Hakeem. Those 5 guys account for 16 of the 17 titles.

Phil Jackson NEVER stressed defense. He stressed the triangle offense. He had average at best interior defenders in Chi in Cartwright, Grant, Rodman, Longley, Purdue. Rodman pulled on the Mailman's shorts and Shaw clogged the lane. MJ and Scottie were great defenders but the Bulls or Lakers were not regarded as defensive teams.

The Rockets and Spurs obviously are, but once again.. they are built around STARS who were all world defenders in Tim/Hakeem.

LeBron is the best player in the East by far this year, why couldn't he get past the 2nd rd?

Those guys were the best because they were on the best teams, playing for some of the best coaches (Jackson, Popovich and Tomjanovich) who demanded that they play great defense.

Sorry but MJ's Bulls were regarded as a defensive team. The Lakers worked hard on defense and could always get stops when they needed them.

Believe it or not, strong defense amongst championship teams is not a coincidence.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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It's the teams that play Great Defense that always win the titles
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