Isles.. I'm just curious, did you by chance get the chance to hear Donnie on Mike and the Maddog?

Are you willing to atleast give him and D'Antoni a chance now?

Same old theme I get from the new guys running the Knicks.."Get to the playoffs"...But somehow we think things are going to change...

Posted by holfresh:


Same old theme I get from the new guys running the Knicks.."Get to the playoffs"...But somehow we think things are going to change...

He wants his team to play as hard as they can at all times. What's he supposed to say? "We are competing for 20 wins and a high first round pick." LOL

Changing the culture is to always push to win and to always push for playoffs.

Posted by martin:

Posted by holfresh:


Same old theme I get from the new guys running the Knicks.."Get to the playoffs"...But somehow we think things are going to change...

He wants his team to play as hard as they can at all times. What's he supposed to say? "We are competing for 20 wins and a high first round pick." LOL

Changing the culture is to always push to win and to always push for playoffs.

Tell the San Antonio Spurs that.

I'd rather they changed the culture by fixing the roster and instilling a work ethic, a defensive philosophy and fundamentals like executing a half court offense.

Gimmicky? Winning 50-60 games a year with a small team in a huge conference is gimmicky? And its not like they tanked in the playoffs.. losing to the Spurs, where is the shame?

Really what I read from your post is your dismay at any attempt to win games as you would rather tank for a high draft pick. Why not just say that? You didnt need to waste so many key strokes!

Drafting a star isnt a bad plan, and I have no problem with your chagrin at MSG's attempts to turn this team around and start winning games. But Donnie Walsh is not Isiah Thomas. Also people in the know that talk about Mike's "system" say the same thing.. he will adapt to what best suits his players.

I guess I am mostly curious to see what new management's plan is... because NONE of us know what that is.

What I dont understand is why people think the only way to win is by emulating what other teams have done in tha past? On one hand you want a roster overhaul on the other hand you resist change like its the black plague.

The real argument is that you want the team to lose so we get a lottery pick in 2009? So the difference would be adding one additional top five draft pick to the roster? And you are 100% assured that will result in a complete re-build? Or we keep sucking till we have replaced all our players with glorified draft picks? What if they pick the wrong guy? What if we have the most number of ping pong balls and still not get the top 5 picks? We have just spend another season winning 20 games and doing what?

From what I have understood they can do everything else for the rebuild except mabe get a high pick next year. Any statement to the contrary at this point is pure speculation. Call me stupid or whatever but I never felt comfortable with the idea of "planning to lose" --- it makes no sense to me, never has. What type of mental framework and work ethic gets instilled in the players when you are planning to lose? So its OK to not try for the extra rebound, we'll close our eyes if you miss open jump shots becuase we relally dont want to win? Sorry I just don't get this.

[Edited by - loweyecue on 05-13-2008 5:26 PM]

Posted by islesfan:

[quote]Posted by fishmike:


It's also about the system that will be put in place with players that aren't anywhere near the caliber that D'Antoni had in Phoenix. It's a bad fit.

We need to get perfect players if we want to win, regardless of who's coaching. And the players in Phoenix were far from perfect. Nash and Shaq are physically unable to guard. And D'Antoni didn't inherit a 2 time MVP, he created one.

It's funny listening to guys like Gus Johnson, Al Trautwig and Brandon Tierney talk about how bad things were under Isiah when just a couple of months ago you would have thought that the Knicks were still an up and coming team with how they talked about them.

We ain't gonna suddenly be the Suns East in terms of win total next year, but at least we can establish a system and culture that is attractive to players, fans and has produced winning results.

This AM I turned on SportsNY (like a fool) to watch all of the loud mouths (which they actually call themselves!) rant and rave about how this is a disaster because D'Antoni has no discipline and doesn't coach D, etc. That is so easy to focus on as this is the typical cliche about "what wins titles," but ignores things in context. Firstly, we are a joke as an organization and team, so by bringing in a Prez and coach that have respect from players and execs in the NBA this is a tremendous change that I heard none of these "experts" (a kind word in this case, I think) discuss at all. In fact, those rants are so cliche that I really have no clue how we have to continue to tolerate such nonsense as representative of what NYers think. Thank goodness for the NY Times writers who provided some balance, history and perspective in their pieces, and a few others.

I know there are folks here who agree and argue that after all that we have seen as fans of the Knicks we have a right to be skeptical. I am not saying that there is without reason for such skepticism, but to automatically associate Walsh and D'Antoini as part of the same stuff that went on here for years under Layden and Isiah (which I admit was a mistake) is a pretty big leap of logic without any strong, current evidence to suggest that this is the case. This is PURE speculation, and rather sophomoric speculation at that. If you had back to back relationships with people who betrayed you, it is quite understandable why one would have a hard time trusting another person in a relationship soon afterwards, or maybe again, but that doesn't mean that this person's defense mechanism of protecting themselves from feeling betrayed or hurt is an accurate depiction of the ability of all others that follow to be trustworthy. Apply this logic to this situation.

Let's also not forget that guys like Isola have been treated awfully by Dolan so their ability to see anything they do as objective is going to be hard, and SportsNY is a competitor to MSG. MSG is everyone's favorite whipping boy, and really it's just old and tired. Let's see what happens maybe before we start declaring ourselves Nostradamus?

Other things the SportsNY guys were ranting on was the obsession with "being a hard ass" in coaching, which is VERY outdated in terms of literature on psychology and what motivates people, as is the notion that a coach who actually listens to players needs is automatically "soft" and doesn't hold people accountable. Ask yourself if you were at a job and if you prefer your boss to yell at you to get your ass in gear after your first mistake, or if after they see it happen a few times, you'd rather they first approach you by taking you to the side and seeing what you can do together to improve this and see what are the best ways you learn? Yeah, what a softee. This way you can adjust for their learning style and then if they still can't perform you just have to deal with reality that it may not work. This is a FAR more effective and positive form of managing.

As a teacher with an MA in secondary education, and studied educational psychology, as well as one who is about to get an MSW I can tell folks for a fact that this idea that bosses/coaches have to be "hard asses" is just totally false and unfounded as the only way to get results from workers/students. Of course there are people who respond well to "tough love" but there are a heck of a lot of people that don't. The NBA is filled with players of similar background, so it isn't a big shock that guys like Phil Jackson and D'Antoni are well regarded by players, not just because they win.

The fact of the matter is that especially for young people of color from low-income backgrounds, and urban environments (which is also not to say that there is one blanket way to view any group) the response to such teaching styles in school is often totally opposite of what people want from using "tough love." You can still hold people accountable while building positive relationships and having high expectations that build self-efficacy (belief in ones ability to accomplish a given task), which can result in positive results.

Championships aren't built in a day, and the old-school 90's hyper-defensive squads like the Spurs are becoming more of the exception than the rule.

I can see why one would believe in an 80's revival in terms of what wins games in the future NBA. History has shown that eras of who wins and doesn't can change as the players who join the league change. The reality is that there are increasing numbers of international players coming in, and highly athletic players that are not as committed to D. Beating a dead horse, but not totally ignoring it, might be a good strategy, and we don't even know what the team will look like roster-wise or style wise as we haven't even made it through the draft lotto yet!

But, seriously, can anyone name any young team that uses a prodding, defensive style game where they just dump it into the post? Maybe the Rockets with Yao, and Oden with Portland might be that, but the league has changed to a more athletic style of play, of which D'Antoni is one of the biggest influences and best coaches at cultivating.

Now that we have him we can see what he can do, and if this theory about the league is wrong, his deal is short enough that he could also be the Knicks next Pitino, who established a winning culture via offense, that preceded the hiring of Riley.

That's how I see this entire thing, and why I support the hire.

[Edited by - PresIke on 05-13-2008 8:16 PM]

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by fishmike:

Gimmicky? Winning 50-60 games a year with a small team in a huge conference is gimmicky? And its not like they tanked in the playoffs.. losing to the Spurs, where is the shame?

Really what I read from your post is your dismay at any attempt to win games as you would rather tank for a high draft pick. Why not just say that? You didnt need to waste so many key strokes!

Drafting a star isnt a bad plan, and I have no problem with your chagrin at MSG's attempts to turn this team around and start winning games. But Donnie Walsh is not Isiah Thomas. Also people in the know that talk about Mike's "system" say the same thing.. he will adapt to what best suits his players.

I guess I am mostly curious to see what new management's plan is... because NONE of us know what that is.

You make the Suns sound like they came from a small town called Hickory. They had 3 perennial all stars, including a 2 time MVP.

It's gimmicky because it's designed to take advantage of the less talented teams. Believe it or not, the Suns were actually one of the most talented teams in the NBA over the last 4 years. When they couldn't run another team off the court, the Suns were a below mediocre team. In close games and against good playoff teams, the Suns were clueless when it came down to coaching, defense and half court execution. If they had a better coach, one that wasn't so rigid in his system, they could have gotten past the Spurs. Look at what Avery Johnson did for the Mavs, another team that the Suns couldn't beat when it mattered.

And it's not just about optimizing draft picks. Obviously, I should have used more keystrokes if you thought that's what I was saying. It's also about the system that will be put in place with players that aren't anywhere near the caliber that D'Antoni had in Phoenix. It's a bad fit.

You lack Patience, my friend. You want a quicker fix then Walsh and D'Antoni. Thats what I get from your posts and the fact that the Knicks didn't fully get rid of Isiah irks you to the point where you are starting conspiracy theories. D'Antoni is an excellent hire and a move in the right direction for this franchise. You complain about bad fit but who the hell is a good fit for the players the Knicks have. How can D'Antoni be a bad fit when anyone else would be considered the same. This team has gone through hall of fame coaches like they belonged in the hall of shame.

You have already posted enough so you can do your I told you so if D'Antoni doesn't get it done here.
Isn't this what it is all about Isles. You secretly want D'Antoni to fail so you could say I told you so.

Posted by BRIGGS:

I think it's a wait and see. I'm not going crazy over the hire and I don't dislike it. It does seem the teams who can defend in the playoffs always win and that is the only goal that I have. So I think it's fair to give Dantoni his space of three years to get this thing back on course.

I like that BRIGGS you have things in perspective. People here are talking championship when we haven't tasted what playoffs are like in many years now. D'Antoni and Walsh deserve their space and should be given time to make things happen. The task is already a steep one to begin with, I don't think that it helps to constantly point out the faults all the time and forget the things that people do well.