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We've got nut-busting and angry hordes roaming the forums....
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Cosmic
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5/13/2008  10:22 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

as long as something is happening with my nuts, it's all good...

LMAO

What if they got kicked in though?
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JohnWallace44
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5/13/2008  10:42 AM
Posted by Cosmic:

Also with Dolan....remember that Stern has pushed the Knicks the past few months to make changes and that Dolan has recently responded telling Stern he would do whatever it took to improve the team.

Walsh hires DAntoni and tells him he will do whatever he can to get the players needed to make this work.

So in that, it's just another couple of reasons for a little optimism that this will be a different regime.

Again, we're so locked into Isiah's mess, there will be no miracle here, so there's no reason to go nuts on either side of the spectrum.

This fan base is largely lacking patience in a situation that all the logic in the world will tell you patience is exactly what you need to have.


I fell like with Cosmic and Isles there is no right answer. Balkman could be hoisting the trophy and they'd be calling for changes. Its one thing to give a critical eye to your team and another to dog anything that they do.

To me, we couldn't have had a better couple of months post Isiah if we had written it up so far. Expectations were so low by the end of last season. Walsh and D'Antoni is a damn good start in the other direction. Not sure what Isles and Cosmic expected. Coangelo and Phil?

If you want to just cry for the sake of it, I think you should take your kleenex with you to Oprah.com.

Me, I'm just going to watch and see what Walsh and Mike D can accomplish up to and through the draft. We're in a better position now than we were in a couple of months ago. As a fan, that's all you can ask is that the team is moving in the right direction and that there is some sign of hope.
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EnySpree
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5/13/2008  11:52 AM
I seriously though this thread was about something......TOTALLY......different.
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Cosmic
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5/13/2008  7:01 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:




I fell like with Cosmic and Isles there is no right answer. Balkman could be hoisting the trophy and they'd be calling for changes. Its one thing to give a critical eye to your team and another to dog anything that they do.

To me, we couldn't have had a better couple of months post Isiah if we had written it up so far. Expectations were so low by the end of last season. Walsh and D'Antoni is a damn good start in the other direction. Not sure what Isles and Cosmic expected. Coangelo and Phil?

If you want to just cry for the sake of it, I think you should take your kleenex with you to Oprah.com.

Me, I'm just going to watch and see what Walsh and Mike D can accomplish up to and through the draft. We're in a better position now than we were in a couple of months ago. As a fan, that's all you can ask is that the team is moving in the right direction and that there is some sign of hope.

What? Do you read my posts? Or did you mean someone else? 'Cause I sure as hell am not anything like Isles or a couple of others on here that just plain hate on every single thing.
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Vmart
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5/13/2008  7:35 PM
Posted by Cosmic:
Posted by Vmart:

I don't think there is a person here that think the Knicks are going to win 60 games next year or the next. Cosmic your making the people who favor this deal seem like idiots or something. There isn't one person here who favored the deal who isn't committed to give the Knicks ample amout of time to turn this mess around.

You are mistaking the people who favor the deal, I for one know that this team is going to take time to turn around and it might be a gradual improvement from year to year. Just having the idea that Walsh is going to try and get the players necessary to help his coach succeed is enough reason to be favoring this deal.

Did you read my entire post? Nowhere did I say people are idiots for favoring the DAntoni hire. Nowhere. The gist of the post was this: There's a lot of over-reactions going on both sides of the fence. For the record, I'm simply on the fence, I will wait for Walsh/DAntoni to prove to me they were good hires before REALLY bothering to look at things.

There are still people that are hating on this team and any move they make giving it zero chance right from the start. I don't know, maybe it makes them feel good just to shyt all over it for no reason other than...to just shyt all over it. There are, like it or not, people who still think this is a very good team and it just needs the right coach and a tweak or two and these people believe the team WILL be a 50+ win team just like that. Then there are middle of the road optimists/pessimists who are more than likely just part way into the season ready to give up on it all if by late December we're still a sub .500 team which is of course likely.

To all of these people, the gist of this topic was to say, regardless of your stance from most negative to most positive, take a break from it and be prepared to give it up to 18 months time BEFORE you go on these highly negative or positive trips...or start calling for heads to roll. The reason being: Isiah screwed us up real good and it will probably take a minimum of 18 months, barring some quick lucky changes that nobody in their right mind would expect to fall into our laps, before not only the team plays any good but for the "plan" to start taking shape in a concrete manner where everyone can see where it's heading.


So, I don't really know why you interpreted my topic starting post as a "LOL anyone who likes the DAntoni hire are IDIOTS!" (or whatever) statement. It's not. It's the opposite entirely. It's just an appeal to all to have...... PATIENCE.... of which non-knee-jerk reactions (quick to judge...overly positive or negative) should not be a part of.



Personally I have no idea where Walsh or DAntoni will lead us. As far as I'm concerned it's anywhere from a continued mistake-laden path that we've witnessed over 8 years of recycling contracts to try to keep adding to the present core of players ------ to miraculously being able to do so and have success ------- to presenting us an entirely different team as far as 3 years from now that contends. I have no idea, nobody does, and that's really the root of the topic.

Agreed reguardless of one stance we need to exercise some patience.

kam77
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5/14/2008  11:52 AM
Posted by Uptown:

For crying out loud...why does hiring D'Antoni mean we can't rebuild? Walsh said in his press conference that he plans on getting this team at or below the cap by 2010. So far, he hasn't made any player/personel moves to jeapordize that statement.

He just hired the best coach on the open market who averaged 58 wins over the past 4 years and people on this board is up in arms. If we hire a no-name, does that automatically signal rebuild? Its been stated that Walsh will move players out and get players in that fits D'Antoni's system. I repeat a System. We haven't had a system or identity on ths team since Vn Gundy left. How about we let this play out.


Because rebuilding typically requires multiple Top 5 draft picks. We have one Top5 pick and we were counting on ahaving another next year. So next year, unless D'antoni is willing to lose 59 games, you will see our rebuilding effort encounter a setback.

If we had waited one more year for this hire, I would have zero problems with it. But today, i'm looking at our future and wondering how we are going to become a future player for LeBron when we have no decent draft picks til then?
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
martin
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5/14/2008  11:55 AM
Posted by kam77:
Posted by Uptown:

For crying out loud...why does hiring D'Antoni mean we can't rebuild? Walsh said in his press conference that he plans on getting this team at or below the cap by 2010. So far, he hasn't made any player/personel moves to jeapordize that statement.

He just hired the best coach on the open market who averaged 58 wins over the past 4 years and people on this board is up in arms. If we hire a no-name, does that automatically signal rebuild? Its been stated that Walsh will move players out and get players in that fits D'Antoni's system. I repeat a System. We haven't had a system or identity on ths team since Vn Gundy left. How about we let this play out.


Because rebuilding typically requires multiple Top 5 draft picks. We have one Top5 pick and we were counting on ahaving another next year. So next year, unless D'antoni is willing to lose 59 games, you will see our rebuilding effort encounter a setback.

If we had waited one more year for this hire, I would have zero problems with it. But today, i'm looking at our future and wondering how we are going to become a future player for LeBron when we have no decent draft picks til then?

on the flip side of it, how do you lure a LeBron with a coach with no experience (opposite of D'antoni) who keeps losing? LeBron ain't going to the Clips or the Hawks of old.
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fishmike
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5/14/2008  12:04 PM
Posted by CrushAlot:

I think there is an obvious reason why some people are upset. Nothing has changed other than Isiah has a different position in the organization. In hiring D'Antoni the team is taking a different direction than rebuilding. This has been the same direction they have taken for the last 4.5 years. In hiring D'Antoni the team has gotten the big name that doesn't fit with the team again. If you include this with keeping Thomas employed and not changing the media poliocy it is very apparent that Dolan is playing a big role in all basketball decisions being made. Players cannot be taught athleticism, and smarts. Players can be taught defense. The current roster needs a teacher and motivator. They have had a guy already who holds twenty minute practices. I also think by committing to D'Antoni Walsh has put himself in a compromised position in regards to making moves with the roster. There are alot of flawed but talented players on the Knicks who are at their lowest value right now. Some these guys do not fit at all with D'Antoni so Walsh will have to give them away. I also think that Walsh knows how to fix the Knicks the right way but again had his hand forced in hiring D'Antoni. Dolan is the fool of the league. He bailed out Phoenix and helped Chicago by not taking one of the canidates who would have been successful in a rebuild with the Knicks.
just to let you know... Walsh isnt allowed to make trades, sign FAs and the draft hasnt happened yet. Some might want to wait for those dates to come and pass before declaring that nothing has changed since Isiah was in charge.

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Cosmic
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5/14/2008  12:35 PM
Posted by martin:




on the flip side of it, how do you lure a LeBron with a coach with no experience (opposite of D'antoni) who keeps losing? LeBron ain't going to the Clips or the Hawks of old.

That's a good point. Free Agents would not be pining to play for Hanners, Porter, Jackson, etc... in 2 years on a rebuilding team that might only be on the threshold of just making the playoffs.

We also might not have a good coaching pool to choose from in 1 or 2 or 3 years when we'd be "ready" to add that marquee coach to a "solid" team on the up.

I do fear that hiring DAntoni means a repeated attempt to recycle contracts - and we've seen for several years now that fail because the core is pretty bad to begin with. I think they do go hand in hand - marquee coach signing - need to recycle contracts and assets into "proven" veterans whereas a hiring of a Hanners, Porter, Jackson type would signal a commitment to tearing down the dead wood, waiting out the deals, building with picks and kids in the meantime.

Yet we don't know the plan but if it is to rebuild and a coach like DAntoni could stomach a season or two of sub .350 play - but be here for the long haul to help the process without getting aggravated by the losing - knowing that years 3 or 4 and 5 will be good.... Then it's all good from the start.

If the plan is to recycle then I really hope they do it carefully. In the 90s we recycled but we kept adding to a solid proven contending core of players. We also acquired truly solid players. Out: Oakley, Starks, Mason --- In: Camby, Spree, LJ. All added to a solid core. That's why it worked.

Dolan/Layden/Isiah kept doing that - but they acquired crappy players - and added them to a crappy core.

Even though Walsh/DAntoni might be able to trade for solid players - the fact remains you're adding them to a crappy core. It would take several waves of recycling to get it right. Unfortunately with recycling you're against a deadline each time: The expiring date of those contracts you wish to recycle. So it forces you to rush to make deals. It even forces you to do things like Isiah did in swapping AD's expiring for Jalen's expiring (+ balkman) just so you didn't lose that expiring.

It put a world of hurt on us for 4.75 long years under Isiah and the damage is done through another 3 full seasons (2011 of Curry, Crawford, Zach, Jeffries).


Nobody wants to repeat that. So this is why some wanted to go for a lesser coach - for it would have signaled an end to the continued path of destruction.


....Since it's now been done, that Walsh and DAntoni are hired, now we have no choice but to give them time to prove they can do it right. For me, as stressed, I'm picking somewhere in early 2010 before the Feb 2010 deadline to at the very least see a very good plan unfolding. We don't have to be spectacular by then but we better be decent and it better be apparent we're going to be good shortly thereafter. Otherwise...the chants will rise again.


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TrueBlue
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5/14/2008  12:44 PM
I think Lebron could play for a coach who may not have clout. Who was Mike Brown before he was Mike Brown? Coaching IMO doesn't have as much bearing as does the roster. We could have a prime John Wooden coaching our team right now but if the Roster is filled with the Knicks of 2005-2006 forget about anybody willingly coming here.

I could list many other examples of good players wanting to play for lesser name coaches or at least they were at the time. Joe Johnson/Mike Woodson, Bosh/Sam Mitchell, Ray Allen/Nate Mcmillan, Kidd/Lawrence Frank, Nash/D'Antoni, T-Mac/Doc Rivers etc etc.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 05-14-2008 11:48 AM]
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kam77
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5/14/2008  12:47 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by kam77:
Posted by Uptown:

For crying out loud...why does hiring D'Antoni mean we can't rebuild? Walsh said in his press conference that he plans on getting this team at or below the cap by 2010. So far, he hasn't made any player/personel moves to jeapordize that statement.

He just hired the best coach on the open market who averaged 58 wins over the past 4 years and people on this board is up in arms. If we hire a no-name, does that automatically signal rebuild? Its been stated that Walsh will move players out and get players in that fits D'Antoni's system. I repeat a System. We haven't had a system or identity on ths team since Vn Gundy left. How about we let this play out.


Because rebuilding typically requires multiple Top 5 draft picks. We have one Top5 pick and we were counting on ahaving another next year. So next year, unless D'antoni is willing to lose 59 games, you will see our rebuilding effort encounter a setback.

If we had waited one more year for this hire, I would have zero problems with it. But today, i'm looking at our future and wondering how we are going to become a future player for LeBron when we have no decent draft picks til then?

on the flip side of it, how do you lure a LeBron with a coach with no experience (opposite of D'antoni) who keeps losing? LeBron ain't going to the Clips or the Hawks of old.

You don't lure LeBron in 2008 by hiring MikeD. We could've waited before getting the experienced coach. Maybe D'antoni would have gone to the Bulls and next year we would have gotten our experienced coach (still two years before LeBron) after enduring a year with a caretaker coach.

I simply coming from the perspective of wanting a great draft pick next year. We likely will have a smaller chance at being bad enough to draft high enough to add an impace player that would attract a LeBron in three years.

We did not need to get the "LeBron Coach" today.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
martin
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5/14/2008  1:01 PM
Posted by kam77:
Posted by martin:
Posted by kam77:
Posted by Uptown:

For crying out loud...why does hiring D'Antoni mean we can't rebuild? Walsh said in his press conference that he plans on getting this team at or below the cap by 2010. So far, he hasn't made any player/personel moves to jeapordize that statement.

He just hired the best coach on the open market who averaged 58 wins over the past 4 years and people on this board is up in arms. If we hire a no-name, does that automatically signal rebuild? Its been stated that Walsh will move players out and get players in that fits D'Antoni's system. I repeat a System. We haven't had a system or identity on ths team since Vn Gundy left. How about we let this play out.


Because rebuilding typically requires multiple Top 5 draft picks. We have one Top5 pick and we were counting on ahaving another next year. So next year, unless D'antoni is willing to lose 59 games, you will see our rebuilding effort encounter a setback.

If we had waited one more year for this hire, I would have zero problems with it. But today, i'm looking at our future and wondering how we are going to become a future player for LeBron when we have no decent draft picks til then?

on the flip side of it, how do you lure a LeBron with a coach with no experience (opposite of D'antoni) who keeps losing? LeBron ain't going to the Clips or the Hawks of old.

You don't lure LeBron in 2008 by hiring MikeD. We could've waited before getting the experienced coach. Maybe D'antoni would have gone to the Bulls and next year we would have gotten our experienced coach (still two years before LeBron) after enduring a year with a caretaker coach.

I simply coming from the perspective of wanting a great draft pick next year. We likely will have a smaller chance at being bad enough to draft high enough to add an impace player that would attract a LeBron in three years.

We did not need to get the "LeBron Coach" today.

mostly what you are saying is that you want to continue what Isiah had been doing for the last 2 years? Losing and cementing a losing attitude? I know I stretched what you meant but you don't hire a coach for a year.

I think the long term plan is more along the lines of what Riles did when Wade first hit the tracks. Play the best ball you can and up the value of Odom, etc (Curry, Randolph, JJ, Lee, Balk, Chandler, Nate) and hope that one of those guys plays solidly enough to be traded in the last year of their contract in return for LeBron (Shaq).
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kam77
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5/14/2008  2:48 PM
I think losing for one more year would have been the prudent thing to do becuase we own our pick next year. Hypothetically speaking, now we will be forced to draft 13 instead of 3rd. Thats the extra price of hiring D'antoni. I would've been down hiring a Thibodeux assistant-type for a year or so, cementing a defensive culture that wins in the playoffs, draft high, and THEN sign a marquee coach to lure thelikes of Lebron.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
djsunyc
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5/14/2008  2:50 PM
Posted by kam77:

I think losing for one more year would have been the prudent thing to do becuase we own our pick next year. Hypothetically speaking, now we will be forced to draft 13 instead of 3rd. Thats the extra price of hiring D'antoni. I would've been down hiring a Thibodeux assistant-type for a year or so, cementing a defensive culture that wins in the playoffs, draft high, and THEN sign a marquee coach to lure thelikes of Lebron.

which is why the objective is to get good as soon as possible (nothing wrong with that). that's why this pick has to be a homerun. imho, if they get #1 or 2, they should see if they can get melo with it. if you have melo, d'antoni AND cap flexiblity in 2010, you can really get a big time free agent (to be).

[Edited by - djsunyc on 05-14-2008 2:51 PM]
eViL
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5/14/2008  3:04 PM
I don't know. I think D'Antoni is going to help us rebuild by putting in a system that makes our players look more attractive. Another year of losing and these guys would have even less value than they have now? Is that even possible?

Two top 5 picks is a lot to ask for, but if we trade David Lee in a sign and trade next year, we might be able to get a top 10 pick to go along with our own likely top 10 pick. That might help the rebuild a bit.
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kam77
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5/14/2008  3:06 PM
D'antoni and Anthony?

lol.

Aside from the name ... how would Anthony be a fit with D'antoni... lol i can't stop laughing at that name ****. I would think D'antoni would want his Nash (Rose) or Amare (Beasley) over Carmelo.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
TrueBlue
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5/14/2008  3:23 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by kam77:

I think losing for one more year would have been the prudent thing to do becuase we own our pick next year. Hypothetically speaking, now we will be forced to draft 13 instead of 3rd. Thats the extra price of hiring D'antoni. I would've been down hiring a Thibodeux assistant-type for a year or so, cementing a defensive culture that wins in the playoffs, draft high, and THEN sign a marquee coach to lure thelikes of Lebron.

which is why the objective is to get good as soon as possible (nothing wrong with that). that's why this pick has to be a homerun. imho, if they get #1 or 2, they should see if they can get melo with it. if you have melo, d'antoni AND cap flexiblity in 2010, you can really get a big time free agent (to be).

[Edited by - djsunyc on 05-14-2008 2:51 PM]


DJ why would you want a player such as Melo here? Seriously of all the players to trade a #1 or #2 pick why him? People say just because we hired D'Antoni doesn't mean we can't rebuild although I personally feel if D'Antoni was such the difference maker in Phx then obviously we should see immediate results in the win column but it's not a given. If we can rebuild with D'Antoni why trade the pick? Keep it especially if it's #1 or #2. Why at every opportunity do we ditch all efforts to rebuild? Why are we so impatient?

What trade for Melo would be doable? Zach + 1 or 2 for Melo?. Doubt Denver would do it but you never know...

The cap is going to be around $60mil summer of 2010. In order to sign a big time Free Agent(Lebron) we need to be at least $15-20mil under to have a chance and that's with making minimum-zero moves. We'll have $45mil on the books summer of 2010 in four players if Curry and Jeffries exercise their options. Swap Zach out for Melo and you're looking at Melo, Curry, Jamal, and Jeffries on the books summer of 2010, if we trade the pick in such a scenario. We'd have to trade Jamal and/or Curry by then but according to most Jamal is the player who'll supposedly thrive most under D'Antoni, so he stands a strong chance to be here by then. Jamal and Melo are the best chuckers in the NBA who play no defense, IMO they would be a bad mix one would have to go before 2010, obviously Jamal.
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eViL
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5/14/2008  3:29 PM
If Jamal does thrive under D'Antoni -- trade him for expirings and a pick. This is what Walsh needs to do. We can use D'Antoni's stat-inflating system to rehabilitate the value of our players and begin to make some real rebuilding moves. There's more than one way to do things. We don't have to flat-out suck for years and years.
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5/14/2008  4:08 PM
I agree with eVil. The first order of business is to make our garbage players look attractive enough so that some other gullible NBA teams might take them off our hands.
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5/14/2008  4:38 PM
Posted by kam77:

I think losing for one more year would have been the prudent thing to do becuase we own our pick next year. Hypothetically speaking, now we will be forced to draft 13 instead of 3rd. Thats the extra price of hiring D'antoni. I would've been down hiring a Thibodeux assistant-type for a year or so, cementing a defensive culture that wins in the playoffs, draft high, and THEN sign a marquee coach to lure thelikes of Lebron.


why do you assume that this team will be fighting for an 8th seed just because D'Antoni is on the sidelines. Last I checked, this is still the same team of odd parts that won 23 for the great next-town-brown, 33 and then 23. Barring major player movement over the summer, or the luck of the draw in the lotto, this team aint winning for anyone.

I think this up coming season may be used as a year to evaluate the roster with the idea of winning slightly on the back-burner. Walsh said that he hired D'Antoni to be a partner with him to help evaluate the roster and weed out the odd parts. Walsh seems to believe in D'Antoni's eye for talent and his ability to develop or get the most out of talent. I dont' think we will be very good next year at all.

Remember, D'Antoni will be instilling a brand-new system next year that will take a while for the players to get used to. There will be a lot of bumps and pot-holes along the way. Not to mention, we just don't have the right pieces yet to excell in the system. With that said, next year might not be as good as you think.
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