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The more things change, the more they stay the same..The presumptive D'Antoni hire..
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islesfan
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5/10/2008  6:57 PM
"I think it is a terrible match," said one rival head coach. "I don't get it. Two of the biggest problems with the Knicks are that they don't practice and they don't play defense. I don't know if that changes now."
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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crzymdups
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5/10/2008  6:57 PM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by holfresh:

If the Knicks hire Mike D'Antoni for the job as coach of this basketball team, it's sending a message that the Knicks are not rebuilding...T
[Edited by - holfresh on 05-10-2008 12:17 PM]

What a joke.

4949, let's hear your plan for next season with D'Antoni? What players do you think we'll keep? How will it work? How many wins do you expect? I'm truly curious.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 10-05-2008 6:57 PM]
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Uptown
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5/10/2008  7:20 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by holfresh:

If the Knicks hire Mike D'Antoni for the job as coach of this basketball team, it's sending a message that the Knicks are not rebuilding...The organization is still going down he road of starphucking in hopes of getting better...I was hoping Mark Jax would be hired sending a signal we are changing the game plan by rebuilding and letting the new coach learn on the job...I think it's been proven many times that this plan,starphucking, doesn't work...I'm beginning to think the reason Walsh was hired is to turn around the Knicks the way Indiana was turned around after the Reggie Miller and Co. era...This will just prolong the time it will take this organization to be competitive again...I would much rather go the Altanta route than the Celtic route when it comes to creating/building a winning basketball environment...

Freaking Dolan is still pulling the strings and Knick fans will continue to be disappointed...If D'Antoni is hired, it will be a sad day for Knick basketball, not because he isn't capable but because of the direction this organization is going...So my good friends, saddle up, the starphucking train is pulling out of Penn Station once again....

[Edited by - holfresh on 05-10-2008 12:17 PM]

You are 100% correct. This is just more of the same old ****.

This is no different than acquiring Zach Randolph last summer, just because he was a big flashy name with "stats" who became very available.

Big name...check

Looking for the most money...check

Unwanted from his last stop...check

Bad fit...check

Continue Isiah's misguided attempt to build the Suns East...check

Be entertaining enough to sell tickets and lose in the 2nd rd every year with no realistic chance at contending for championships...check

Starphuck...double check

They'll never be lucky enough to acquire the kind of talent that D'Antoni had to work with in Phoenix. At best you're looking at the Warriors and Nuggets. Think the Rick Pitino Knicks but without a franchise center. D'Antoni relies on the run and gun to cover up the fact that his teams are poor defensively and don't execute well in the half court. That's a recipe for entertainment, not championships.

D'Antoni is a bad fit and it's sad that some Knicks fans are so desperate that they can't or refuse to see it.

This is a total Isiah and Dolan move. Walsh is proving that he's here for the money and doesn't mind being a puppet. Isiah wants to be the Phoenix Suns of the East and Dolan wants to get big names here to keep their season ticket holders and sell tickets. Keep being suckers. That's exactly what they want.


First off, Zach was never a winning player. D'Antoni, like his style or not averaged about 58 wins per the last 4 seasons. It's insulting comparing Zach to D'Antoni.

D'Antoni is a big name but I dont see how that a problem. He's a winner unlike Isiah and Magic 2 big names who Dolan reached for and hadn't proved a thing on the sidelines or in the front office. I mean would you have been happier (Isles & happy is that an oxymoron?) if we hired a small-name? This guy is winner. I dont see how you can be unhappy with hiring a winner who offers direction and an actual plan.

Bad fit? There isn't a coach on the planet who would be a good fit for this roster. Regardless of the coach, its pretty obvious to everyone that this current roster needed to be gutted and reassembled to fit said-coaches style. At least with D' Antoni, we now have a blue-print to follow. Isiah assembled this team like an allstar team minus the allstars. No plan or vision for an actual team. Walsh now knows what players he needs to get.

Suns east? I remember Isiah saying this, but that was one of about 20 different plans Isiah laid forth then abandoned. Trading for Curry and Zach should signal to you that the Suns of the east was just typical B.S. from Isiah.

D'Antoni and his defenseless style, which is doomed to fail or destined to peak in the 2nd round as you say, was a bush-league play by Horry from possibly winning the 'Chip'. No, it will not be easy to assmeble the same squad that he had in Phoenix. Unless Garnett and Rondo was coming to, it wouldn't be easy for Thibideau to put toegther the same defensive squad he had success with this year. Bottom line, regardless of who the coach is, if don't have the horses, you aint winning.





[Edited by - uptown on 05-10-2008 7:22 PM]
fishmike
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5/10/2008  7:54 PM
best coach availabe: check
GM/Coach combo with history of turning around losing teams: check

this is a terrible roster than no coach is winning with so who is a good fit?

Also, as much has been made about Mike D's "style" I am still waiting to hear from Isles, GFK or anyone else what style they would have used to win 60 games playing 3 guards and 2 SFs in a conference dominated by size. Seems to me thats just good coaching.

Suns east? Sure.. I will take a few 50/60 win seasons until we figure out how to take the next step. Sign me up for that.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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5/10/2008  8:03 PM
Posted by fishmike:

best coach availabe: check
GM/Coach combo with history of turning around losing teams: check

this is a terrible roster than no coach is winning with so who is a good fit?

Also, as much has been made about Mike D's "style" I am still waiting to hear from Isles, GFK or anyone else what style they would have used to win 60 games playing 3 guards and 2 SFs in a conference dominated by size. Seems to me thats just good coaching.

Suns east? Sure.. I will take a few 50/60 win seasons until we figure out how to take the next step. Sign me up for that.

the key to it all is the players. can walsh give d'antoni the players he needs to be successful? if you're a knicks fan, if you can't trust walsh/d'antoni to turn it around, then who can you trust?

[Edited by - djsunyc on 05-10-2008 8:03 PM]
oohah
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5/10/2008  8:09 PM
Posted by holfresh:

If the Knicks hire Mike D'Antoni for the job as coach of this basketball team, it's sending a message that the Knicks are not rebuilding...The organization is still going down he road of starphucking in hopes of getting better...I was hoping Mark Jax would be hired sending a signal we are changing the game plan by rebuilding and letting the new coach learn on the job...I think it's been proven many times that this plan,starphucking, doesn't work...I'm beginning to think the reason Walsh was hired is to turn around the Knicks the way Indiana was turned around after the Reggie Miller and Co. era...This will just prolong the time it will take this organization to be competitive again...I would much rather go the Altanta route than the Celtic route when it comes to creating/building a winning basketball environment...

Freaking Dolan is still pulling the strings and Knick fans will continue to be disappointed...If D'Antoni is hired, it will be a sad day for Knick basketball, not because he isn't capable but because of the direction this organization is going...So my good friends, saddle up, the starphucking train is pulling out of Penn Station once again....

[Edited by - holfresh on 05-10-2008 12:17 PM]

Wow Holfresh...I was going to start a thread with virtually the same title. This is the LB hire all over again. Splashy hire now, instead of building a team based on the finding and developing the right young talent, we have to go and find the right talent to fit a predetermined style, and that talent may or may not be available.

I see some guys above give D'Antoni a lot of credit for Phoenix' success, but he certainly had the horses with Nash, Stoudemire and Marion (Who might be a Knick in waiting if you look at the way things are developing.).

If you look at D'Antoni's record closely, you'll see that he got out-coached quite a bit in the playoffs, and Phoenix got out-toughed every series win or lose. Remember when the "Kobe and Nobody" Lakers almost beat the Suns in the first round? It took a miracle 3 from Tim Thomas for Phoenix to escape!

I don't want to make it out to be like I don't like D'Antoni. I do think he is a good coach, but not as great as his record may suggest. 90% of a coaches record depends on having the right players. Where is our Nash, Stoudemire, or Marion (Who might be on his way, and is breaking down, a true Knicks-style pickup!)

I like D'Antoni to a certain degree, and I think the individuals on the roster will have much better statistical numbers, especially Lee and Balkman, but does this really improve the team next year? Where is the long-term view they keep promising us?

Hiring D'Antoni is all about hyping up the fan base for the next 1-2 seasons to maintain ticket and advertising sales. It really has nothing to do with winning. Meanwhile, it's most likely that teams like Miami are going to reload at our expense.

Looks like Walsh is the latest GM with no true autonomy. Man, I wish I could get me one of those jobs! Oh well, nothing really too surprising here.

***

Let's go Knicks!

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
tkf
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5/10/2008  8:21 PM
Posted by fishmike:

best coach availabe: check
GM/Coach combo with history of turning around losing teams: check

this is a terrible roster than no coach is winning with so who is a good fit?

Also, as much has been made about Mike D's "style" I am still waiting to hear from Isles, GFK or anyone else what style they would have used to win 60 games playing 3 guards and 2 SFs in a conference dominated by size. Seems to me thats just good coaching.

Suns east? Sure.. I will take a few 50/60 win seasons until we figure out how to take the next step. Sign me up for that.


I don't get it.... And the reason why they didn't want to hire D'antoni is what? It won't seem like we are rebuilding? LOL.. Ok, so if all these fans wanted to do is see losing and high picks for the next few years, then why not just keep Isiah? I mean some people have this thing in mind that rebuilding means losing, getting a high pick, sprinkle some magic dust, and boom, you are now the Spurs.. LOL..

Everyone wanted a culture change.. well Donnie and D'antoni are going to bring that this year for sure.. Now will it result in a winning season next year? probably not, but we do know that we will have a system, a style, a philosophy we can build upon and one other FA, and other players may want to play in... You have to start somewhere. Having a system in place, having some credibility is not a bad place to start....
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
TrueBlue
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5/10/2008  8:28 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by holfresh:

If the Knicks hire Mike D'Antoni for the job as coach of this basketball team, it's sending a message that the Knicks are not rebuilding...The organization is still going down he road of starphucking in hopes of getting better...I was hoping Mark Jax would be hired sending a signal we are changing the game plan by rebuilding and letting the new coach learn on the job...I think it's been proven many times that this plan,starphucking, doesn't work...I'm beginning to think the reason Walsh was hired is to turn around the Knicks the way Indiana was turned around after the Reggie Miller and Co. era...This will just prolong the time it will take this organization to be competitive again...I would much rather go the Altanta route than the Celtic route when it comes to creating/building a winning basketball environment...

Freaking Dolan is still pulling the strings and Knick fans will continue to be disappointed...If D'Antoni is hired, it will be a sad day for Knick basketball, not because he isn't capable but because of the direction this organization is going...So my good friends, saddle up, the starphucking train is pulling out of Penn Station once again....

[Edited by - holfresh on 05-10-2008 12:17 PM]

You are 100% correct. This is just more of the same old ****.

This is no different than acquiring Zach Randolph last summer, just because he was a big flashy name with "stats" who became very available.

Big name...check

Looking for the most money...check

Unwanted from his last stop...check

Bad fit...check

Continue Isiah's misguided attempt to build the Suns East...check

Be entertaining enough to sell tickets and lose in the 2nd rd every year with no realistic chance at contending for championships...check

Starphuck...double check

They'll never be lucky enough to acquire the kind of talent that D'Antoni had to work with in Phoenix. At best you're looking at the Warriors and Nuggets. Think the Rick Pitino Knicks but without a franchise center. D'Antoni relies on the run and gun to cover up the fact that his teams are poor defensively and don't execute well in the half court. That's a recipe for entertainment, not championships.

D'Antoni is a bad fit and it's sad that some Knicks fans are so desperate that they can't or refuse to see it.

This is a total Isiah and Dolan move. Walsh is proving that he's here for the money and doesn't mind being a puppet. Isiah wants to be the Phoenix Suns of the East and Dolan wants to get big names here to keep their season ticket holders and sell tickets. Keep being suckers. That's exactly what they want.

Now that I agree with. How sad is it that I am at least looking forward to a more entertaining disaster next season? Maybe we'll win 35 games!


I'm on record for saying they'll win 39gms next season at best. My final tab will be worst than this as It usually dwindles some as the season approaches it's start.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
nyk4ever
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5/11/2008  12:16 AM
Posted by islesfan:

"I think it is a terrible match," said one rival head coach. "I don't get it. Two of the biggest problems with the Knicks are that they don't practice and they don't play defense. I don't know if that changes now."

Everyone knows the roster had/has to be gutted, so how does that statement matter?
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
crzymdups
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5/11/2008  12:45 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by islesfan:

"I think it is a terrible match," said one rival head coach. "I don't get it. Two of the biggest problems with the Knicks are that they don't practice and they don't play defense. I don't know if that changes now."

Everyone knows the roster had/has to be gutted, so how does that statement matter?

it matters because D'Antoni is a coach who doesn't emphasize practice or defense.
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Solace
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5/11/2008  1:06 AM
Just so we're straight, is the fear here that the Knicks will win more games next season and thus not get as good a pick as we would otherwise?

The hope is that D'Antoni is in this for the long term as we really make strides to turn this thing around. Personally, I'm encouraged to bring in some winners into a group of losers.

Next step: Bring in more winners and try to build a core.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Solace
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5/11/2008  1:08 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by islesfan:

"I think it is a terrible match," said one rival head coach. "I don't get it. Two of the biggest problems with the Knicks are that they don't practice and they don't play defense. I don't know if that changes now."

Everyone knows the roster had/has to be gutted, so how does that statement matter?

it matters because D'Antoni is a coach who doesn't emphasize practice or defense.

Again, why do people say this? The Suns defense has been above average for four years and D'Antoni has gotten his players to work very hard for him. Where is the evidence that D'Antoni is a laid back coach who doesn't care? Meanwhile, people loved the idea of preaching defense by bringing in a point guard who was the worst defensive point guard in the NBA while he was a player and has never coached a single game? Yeah, that makes sense.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
nyk4ever
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5/11/2008  1:20 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by islesfan:

"I think it is a terrible match," said one rival head coach. "I don't get it. Two of the biggest problems with the Knicks are that they don't practice and they don't play defense. I don't know if that changes now."

Everyone knows the roster had/has to be gutted, so how does that statement matter?

it matters because D'Antoni is a coach who doesn't emphasize practice or defense.

And tell me again how that statement matters? This team isnt winning games in the next 2 years so who cares how little defense this team plays right now.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
crzymdups
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5/11/2008  1:34 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by islesfan:

"I think it is a terrible match," said one rival head coach. "I don't get it. Two of the biggest problems with the Knicks are that they don't practice and they don't play defense. I don't know if that changes now."

Everyone knows the roster had/has to be gutted, so how does that statement matter?

it matters because D'Antoni is a coach who doesn't emphasize practice or defense.

And tell me again how that statement matters? This team isnt winning games in the next 2 years so who cares how little defense this team plays right now.

so, wait? you're saying D'Antoni is being hired as a big name coach but you don't think he'll get wins? what's the point of hiring him again?
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crzymdups
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5/11/2008  1:35 AM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by islesfan:

"I think it is a terrible match," said one rival head coach. "I don't get it. Two of the biggest problems with the Knicks are that they don't practice and they don't play defense. I don't know if that changes now."

Everyone knows the roster had/has to be gutted, so how does that statement matter?

it matters because D'Antoni is a coach who doesn't emphasize practice or defense.

Again, why do people say this? The Suns defense has been above average for four years and D'Antoni has gotten his players to work very hard for him. Where is the evidence that D'Antoni is a laid back coach who doesn't care? Meanwhile, people loved the idea of preaching defense by bringing in a point guard who was the worst defensive point guard in the NBA while he was a player and has never coached a single game? Yeah, that makes sense.

He cares, but he has a reputation as a players coach. His practices are known to be about 30 minutes long. He clashed with Steve Kerr because Kerr wanted him to emphasize defense in practice more. These things aren't opinions I'm making up, they are widely held opinions throughout the NBA.
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Elite
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5/11/2008  1:37 AM
Lets get this straight, we are embarking on a 2-3 year rebuilding phase.

With that said, what is most important in the next 2-3 years?

1. Establish a disciplined culture with a focus on Defense and accountability.
2. Develop and covet young talent
3. Raise our players trade value

Mike D’antoni in my eyes is not the man to accomplish steps 1 and 2. But he could accomplish #3.

I dont like this move, Because Mike D’antoni’s system is not winning any championships… But this roster isnt winning any championships no matter WHO coaches us.

So what does it boil down to?

We will probobly get a lot better during the regular season and our players will look a lot more appealing to other teams within the run and gun offense. We might even make the playoffs.. Maybe even next year!

So what do we sacrifice? We are not truely rebuilding.. As usual.. because we wont get the great kinds of draft pick we are going to get this year. Also its kind of fools gold for guys like David Lee to think this is the way to win, when we ALL KNOW very well Mike D’s system DOES NOT WIN inthe playoffs where it counts.

Mike had a PERFECT roster in phoenix for his system, it cant get any better… Yet he still lost over and over again in the playoffs.. So why should we think hes going to come here and do anything worth caring about with our terrible roster?

Knick fans want to build towards WINNING A CHAMPIONSHIP

not make the playoffs next year

Dolan continues to be behind moves that improve our chances of making the playoffs next year every year, while hurting our chances to actually win a championship in the long run.

I feel like Isiah is still in charge
crzymdups
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5/11/2008  1:45 AM
Posted by Solace:

Just so we're straight, is the fear here that the Knicks will win more games next season and thus not get as good a pick as we would otherwise?

The hope is that D'Antoni is in this for the long term as we really make strides to turn this thing around. Personally, I'm encouraged to bring in some winners into a group of losers.

Next step: Bring in more winners and try to build a core.

You can bring in a coach with a winning record, but it doesn't mean he'll automatically be a winner. You know what D'Antoni's record in Denver was with a healthy McDyess scoring 20ppg and getting 10rpg? And Nick Van Exel chipping in 18ppg? And Billups scoring 14ppg? He went 14-36 in the lockout season, 1999. He's not infallible. They had a great mix in Phoenix - those mixes are hard to come by.

Anyway, my problem with the hire is that it seems to be in favor of another short cut rebuild. Bringing a big name coach for big money brings big expectations. See: Larry Brown's NY tenure. I worry that it will try to speed up the rebuilding process too quickly when in reality we don't have many good chips to facilitate a rebuild. I think we should've spent longer acquiring chips via the draft and maybe even through shrewd trades.

People like to act like D'Antoni worked a miracle in Phoenix, but the reality is they won 44 games with Marbury/Joe Johnson/Marion/Amare in 2002-3. The start of the next season, Amare goes down, the team struggles, Coach Frank Johnson gets fired, D'Antoni comes in and wants to trade Marbury for cap room. After that "rebuild" season, they sign Steve Nash and QRich. Next season, Amare comes back, Nash does a much better job than Marbury, QRich gives them another outside shooter and they win 62 games. People acted like Phoenix went from 30 wins to 62 wins, but realistically, they had a 44 win core there that they were able to take to the next level by switching out Marbury for Nash. But, still, Phoenix HAD a core of Marion/Amare/Marbury/Joe Johnson. That is FOUR players who were all-stars at the time or developed into all-stars in the next few years. So, D'Antoni coming here to rebuild is quite a different beast than D'Antoni taking the reigns in Phoenix.
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crzymdups
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5/11/2008  1:47 AM
Posted by Elite:



I feel like Isiah is still in charge

to be fair, if Isiah was in charge he would have given the Suns two lotto picks as compensation for D'Antoni and said "I still feel like we got a steal"
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Solace
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5/11/2008  1:49 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Solace:

Just so we're straight, is the fear here that the Knicks will win more games next season and thus not get as good a pick as we would otherwise?

The hope is that D'Antoni is in this for the long term as we really make strides to turn this thing around. Personally, I'm encouraged to bring in some winners into a group of losers.

Next step: Bring in more winners and try to build a core.

You can bring in a coach with a winning record, but it doesn't mean he'll automatically be a winner. You know what D'Antoni's record in Denver was with a healthy McDyess scoring 20ppg and getting 10rpg? And Nick Van Exel chipping in 18ppg? And Billups scoring 14ppg? He went 14-36 in the lockout season, 1999. He's not infallible. They had a great mix in Phoenix - those mixes are hard to come by.

Anyway, my problem with the hire is that it seems to be in favor of another short cut rebuild. Bringing a big name coach for big money brings big expectations. See: Larry Brown's NY tenure. I worry that it will try to speed up the rebuilding process too quickly when in reality we don't have many good chips to facilitate a rebuild. I think we should've spent longer acquiring chips via the draft and maybe even through shrewd trades.

People like to act like D'Antoni worked a miracle in Phoenix, but the reality is they won 44 games with Marbury/Joe Johnson/Marion/Amare in 2002-3. The start of the next season, Amare goes down, the team struggles, Coach Frank Johnson gets fired, D'Antoni comes in and wants to trade Marbury for cap room. After that "rebuild" season, they sign Steve Nash and QRich. Next season, Amare comes back, Nash does a much better job than Marbury, QRich gives them another outside shooter and they win 62 games. People acted like Phoenix went from 30 wins to 62 wins, but realistically, they had a 44 win core there that they were able to take to the next level by switching out Marbury for Nash. But, still, Phoenix HAD a core of Marion/Amare/Marbury/Joe Johnson. That is FOUR players who were all-stars at the time or developed into all-stars in the next few years. So, D'Antoni coming here to rebuild is quite a different beast than D'Antoni taking the reigns in Phoenix.

Agreed, but you have give the coach credit for success, as they certainly also get blamed for failure. Again, if nothing else, he comes from a winning atmosphere. If you watch the Knicks, it's obvious to me that is the #1 need to start changing the atmosphere of this team. The team has been surrounded by losers with loser attitudes for so long.

I'm simply saying give him a shot, as he certainly has the rep to have earned it. The people that have been bashing D'Antoni were in favor of a completely inexperienced coach.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
crzymdups
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5/11/2008  1:58 AM
I'm all for giving him a chance, but I think the people in favor of Mark Jackson realized that our coach should not be the issue at this juncture and that we should be amassing chips and talent and ridding ourselves of the Zachs and Stephs. Then when we have more chips and we've made some moves to get talent, bring in the coach.

I do think it makes sense to have D'Antoni in place to instill a system and gives us more of a plan to acquire certain players. But I worry that his pressence will lead to too many expectations and we'll make decisions to have short term success rather than do a patient rebuild. This is not a patient move by the Knicks. Does it mean it's the wrong move? No. It could well work out. D'Antoni's system favors PGs and the new rules about zones and player contact fouls on the perimeter make quick PGs impossibly difficult to defend - hence Chris Paul and Tony Parker and Deron Williams dominating the league right now. So there are clear advantages to D'Antoni's game plan. There are also disadvantages - like defense, namely.

I just worry we will make decisions that are meant to win now, when really, we have no business winning now. Whereas that Phoenix team had a young 44 win core, we have a young-ish core that has averaged 26 wins a season for the last three years (and we don't have any lotto picks to show for those seasons except the upcoming one). Whereas I think the prudent thing to do may have been to trade David Lee for two first round picks, or a lotto pick, we will probably sign David Lee to a $50M deal now because D'Antoni likes him. That hurts the cap. A lot. So. I dunno.


edit: the one wild card that may drastically effect my opinion of this hire is that: maybe Isiah screwed up the team so badly that the players here are actually better than they look and will improve their play when given a sensible system and a good coach. If that's the case and Jamal and DLee and Nate and maybe even a Balkman or Chandler can REALLY improve under D'Antoni, maybe we aren't as deep in the hole as it seems now. But that is a gigantic, raging IF. I'm not prepared to be that optimistic, but I'd be happy to be surprised.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 11-05-2008 02:07 AM]
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