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"You can make a lot of money in the NBA without winning, but you can't do that in Europe"
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playa2
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5/7/2008  9:50 PM
Posted by simrud:

I think we should be clear about something here.

European system is better in a sense that it theoretically puts a more fundamentally sound product on the floor. However this product is inherently inferior simply because the talent level is simply sub par.

European system is worse for players and coaches, as they all make less money. It is also not as profitable for the owners, however that I'm sure varies across individual organizations.

It is a valid point though that some domestic players benefit from a gradual increase in money, however, should everybody be penalized for the immaturity of others?

Either way, anybody who went to college would agree that its simply one of the best times in someone's life. To go for free, while also being the man on campus, is something that should not be dismissed as of no value.

Thank you simmy for bringing a balance to the conversation, you make some good points.

If you aren't going to school for an education you are just on display and getting pimped for two yrs., you can have better parties as a pro with all the cash you make.

I bet tony parker, jose calderon and others have fun making money at 16 and can mack all the girls by being a pro.

JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
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Nalod
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5/7/2008  10:24 PM
How much money are they making in the Jr. divisons?

Playa, you gotta come up with this figure cuz your sure throwing around some very confident assumptions!

Don't Forget darko and lampe who also were very good 18 year olds.
fishmike
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5/8/2008  7:42 AM
they still are very good 18 year olds
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
playa2
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5/8/2008  9:26 AM
Posted by Nalod:

How much money are they making in the Jr. divisons?

Playa, you gotta come up with this figure cuz your sure throwing around some very confident assumptions!

Don't Forget darko and lampe who also were very good 18 year olds.

Any amount is better than mooching off you're mom and dad as much as kids can eat these days, or turning to hustle illegally to help mom pay bills and feed the family like some players do.



JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
arkrud
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5/8/2008  9:44 AM
Posted by playa2:
Posted by Nalod:

How much money are they making in the Jr. divisons?

Playa, you gotta come up with this figure cuz your sure throwing around some very confident assumptions!

Don't Forget darko and lampe who also were very good 18 year olds.

Any amount is better than mooching off you're mom and dad as much as kids can eat these days, or turning to hustle illegally to help mom pay bills and feed the family like some players do.

Like Spre?
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
playa2
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5/8/2008  6:31 PM
Posted by arkrud:

NBA is an entertainment show and if it will move it this direction farther it will have the fate of Wrestling. From international sport it will became local American joke.

The more money involved(betting) or the more money being made turned the game into entertainment.

Euro leagues are about W-L not entertainment and guess what , there is less money to be made there.

Greedy owners and agents like (falk) ruined the game.

JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
fishmike
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5/8/2008  8:38 PM
Posted by playa2:
Posted by arkrud:

NBA is an entertainment show and if it will move it this direction farther it will have the fate of Wrestling. From international sport it will became local American joke.

The more money involved(betting) or the more money being made turned the game into entertainment.

Euro leagues are about W-L not entertainment and guess what , there is less money to be made there.

Greedy owners and agents like (falk) ruined the game.
selfish players ruined the game. Guys that care more about getting their numbers for a big payday then they care about winning. Being a max player is better then winning titles. Thats factorial

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Nalod
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5/9/2008  12:49 AM
Fans paying to see garbage ruined the game.

Its entertainment.
playa2
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5/9/2008  6:43 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by playa2:
Posted by arkrud:

NBA is an entertainment show and if it will move it this direction farther it will have the fate of Wrestling. From international sport it will became local American joke.

The more money involved(betting) or the more money being made turned the game into entertainment.

Euro leagues are about W-L not entertainment and guess what , there is less money to be made there.

Greedy owners and agents like (falk) ruined the game.
selfish players ruined the game. Guys that care more about getting their numbers for a big payday then they care about winning. Being a max player is better then winning titles. Thats factorial


David Stern PROMOTED selfish play, you forgot about Jordan early yrs to save the league already huh ? Who was his agent- David Falk.

Magic and Bird promoted team play as youngsters in the league. Jordan came along and changed how we viewed the "team sport".

Don't blame every kid growing up trying to "be like mike" on the players, the Leagues commissioner Promoted and rewarded that kind of play.

JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
eViL
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5/9/2008  9:06 AM
Posted by playa2:

David Stern PROMOTED selfish play, you forgot about Jordan early yrs to save the league already huh ? Who was his agent- David Falk.

Magic and Bird promoted team play as youngsters in the league. Jordan came along and changed how we viewed the "team sport".

Don't blame every kid growing up trying to "be like mike" on the players, the Leagues commissioner Promoted and rewarded that kind of play.

Nike probably had more to do with promoting single superstars over teams, playa. Teams don't sell sneakers. Superstars do. Stern wants to see teams do well. He could care less about selling sneakers. Of course, he's not going to rebel against an icon of the game, but I wouldn't attribute the advent of selfish play to some David Stern conspiracy. Try making some sense. Why would a league commissioner promote one player, from one team, when he has an entire league to worry about?
check out my latest hip hop project: https://soundcloud.com/michaelcro http://youtu.be/scNXshrpyZo
playa2
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5/9/2008  9:13 AM
Nike just jumped on the gravy train, Stern was elated to see Jordan transform the league and make espn and nike into who they are today.

Look at the rules now, you can't touch a player that promotes more one on one play.

And since stern and company wants more offense, that means the players and the agents are out to get as much money as possible because it's about getting paid for the entertainment you bring to the game.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
eViL
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5/9/2008  9:19 AM
Bro, Nike was conducting the gravy train. If you just looked at things rationally for a second you would see why a sneaker company would have more interest in marketing individual players. You would also see why a league commissioner would have more interest in marketing teams. Players come and go. Teams last forever. That being said, Stern is not going to fight it, if Jordan-fever catches on.

The new league hand-check rules were a response to the 90's Knicks, grind it out, defensive style. It had nothing to do with promoting individual guys. If Stern only had interest in promoting one-on-one play, why did he agree on allowing zone defense?

[Edited by - eViL on 05-09-2008 09:20 AM]
check out my latest hip hop project: https://soundcloud.com/michaelcro http://youtu.be/scNXshrpyZo
playa2
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5/9/2008  9:22 AM
Stern created his own monster now he's just trying to adjust it and bring back more fans to promote team play again.

Did you forget the beginning of jordan era ?

Have you heard the commercial where MJ says maybe "he hurt the game"
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
eViL
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5/9/2008  9:33 AM
Posted by playa2:

Stern created his own monster now he's just trying to adjust it and bring back more fans to promote team play again.

Did you forget the beginning of jordan era ?

Have you heard the commercial where MJ says maybe "he hurt the game"

Yeah, I saw Jordan's commercial, he said, "Maybe I (Michael Jordan) hurt the game." He didn't say maybe David Stern hurt the game.

Stern was the commish during the Bird and Magic era as well -- why didn't he promote them as individual superstars? Why didn't he promote the hell out of Dominique Wilkins? You know why? Because he promotes teams. It's his job to promote the league. He's an employee of the owners.

Nique, Bird and Magic didn't blow up like Jordan because Nike wasn't pumping millions of dollars into promoting those guys to sell sneakers.

Nike had Jordan wearing an all-Nike outfit, top-to-bottom, at the dunk contest. They took a risk with him and marketed him as a brand -- enter Air Jordan. Maybe you've heard of it. Lucky for Nike, they struck gold -- they hitched their fate on the back of a player who, with or without them, would go on to be one of the greatest in history. And that's how individual superstars became bigger than the game. It was Nike. Not David Stern.

Everything is not a conspiracy, Playa. Please take a step back and think rationally for a moment.
check out my latest hip hop project: https://soundcloud.com/michaelcro http://youtu.be/scNXshrpyZo
playa2
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5/9/2008  9:38 AM
I never called this a conspiracy, why do you keep mentioning that ?

This is all about business not conspiracy !

If David didn't bow down to Jordan this would have never happen, nike didn't ref games, stern boys did.

Remember when the bad boys was putting Jordan in his place ?

What did stern do, he made sure Jordan would get all the whistles and do whatever he wanted to do as a individual player.

Nike had nothing to do with what Jordan was allowed to do on the court.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
eViL
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5/9/2008  9:51 AM
Posted by playa2:

I never called this a conspiracy, why do you keep mentioning that ?

This is all about business not conspiracy !

If David didn't bow down to Jordan this would have never happen, nike didn't ref games, stern boys did.

Remember when the bad boys was putting Jordan in his place ?

What did stern do, he made sure Jordan would get all the whistles and do whatever he wanted to do as a individual player.

Nike had nothing to do with what Jordan was allowed to do on the court.

Let's not pretend that superstar calls began with Michael Jordan. This uneven style of officiating existed before him and it exists after him and it continues to exist in every sport, not just basketball.

Like I said, I don't necessarily think Stern tried to de-emphasize the impact Jordan was having. Why would he? Jordan was creating interest for the entire league as a whole.

However, I don't think Stern was necessarily intending to promote individual play over team play. It was Nike and their marketing. You can't market teams to sell sneakers -- you have to market players. Nike revolutionized the way the sports apparel business approached branding and marketing. Stern was just a bystander who was lucky to capitalize because the player they bonded their brand to happened to play in his league.

Look, I don't love David Stern, but I think you are apportioning the blame here inappropriately.
check out my latest hip hop project: https://soundcloud.com/michaelcro http://youtu.be/scNXshrpyZo
Nalod
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5/9/2008  10:26 AM
Posted by playa2:

I never called this a conspiracy, why do you keep mentioning that ?


What did stern do, he made sure Jordan would get all the whistles and do whatever he wanted to do as a individual player.

Unless you know for a fact, or such a fact exist then your extending your opinion, and your opinion is the devil Stern was covert in making sure Jordan Rules existed.

That is a theory. ANd thats what Conspiricy's are made from.

Jordan won. Jordan bought prime time ratings even higher than Bird-Magic were were promoted to save the league whom at that time had finals on tape delay! Jordans games became prime time fodder and was the biggest star in the world.

Jordan did not ruin the game.

The biggest winner the last 10 years has been the Spurs who have a very boring roster, but is an exciting team to watch.

Lebron was hyped while in high school, and had huge endorsement deals before he became an NBA star.
playa2
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5/9/2008  5:14 PM
Mike Jordan in his early years didn't win squat, so what you are saying is not true.

If you watched the same games I did all the players especially gerald Wilkin would tell you the whistles were always in Jordan's favor whether he was playing defense or driving the ball to the basket .

For you to say Jordan didn't ruin the game , explain to me what he means in his commercial then.

Jordan is watching the game now from the booth and all he see's are players trying to demonstrate what they can do offensively and he must believe his style of play early in his career persuaded many players to play offensively the same way.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
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