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OT: Sean Bell shooting verdict
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BRIGGS
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4/25/2008  12:29 PM
I think this is a case of reckless endangerment and possibly manslaughter but if you have read the case--a young African-American cop named Gescard Isnora is the person who seemed to be the lead player in the story--he was the main tail--he was the one who followed the victim and his friends to his car--he is the one who told them to stop[purpotedly] here is a victim account--Referring to Isnora, Guzman said, "This dude is shooting like he's crazy, like he's out of his mind."

I can't take away some kind of racial bias of an African-American cop shooting other African_Americans with mostly ethnic back up police officers. We probably don't know the situation or will we ever but to call this racist is out of this world. There certainly was huge mistakes --from what i read seems like criminal negligence in a few areas--the cops should NOT have got off free and I see injustice there--there is no doubt about it---but this is not a case where 4 white police officers shot an ethnic man--this is a cse of an African-American shooting another--for reasons unknown--and his cop friends backed him up[which is what they do]. There is no explanation for shooting 50 times--this is criminal and the cops made horrible deadly misjudgement that should cal for jail time--but this is not a racial thing unless you have 12 white people on the jury which was not the case.


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EnySpree
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4/25/2008  12:48 PM
Briggs you're right but this isn't a hate crime like I said. It was police brutality. Yeah the Black cop tailed them and was shooting crazy cuz one of his bullets shot out a window on a walkway on the airtrain station, blocks away. Yeah he is dead wrong.....so was his boy that shot 30 plus shots where he actually reloaded(he was white).

I'm in queens now.....there have been helicopters patroling the area all morning. That **** is buggin me out. I bet there will be extra police presence by the highchool overe here.

Its unsettling to me. Anybody that shouts out racist cops is a ****ing idiot. It has to do with police brutality on the black community. If those guys had a gun or actually shot first or returned fire then they get what they deserve......

This was not a shoot out, this was a slaughter. Police brutality. This is not a white vs. Black issue.
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playa2
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4/25/2008  12:50 PM
The defence argued that the victims as drunken thugs who the officers believed were armed and dangerous.

Prosecutors had attempted to convince the judge that the victims had been minding their own business, and that the officers were inept and trigger-happy.


Somebody is lying !
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
PresIke
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4/25/2008  12:57 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

I think this is a case of reckless endangerment and possibly manslaughter but if you have read the case--a young African-American cop named Gescard Isnora is the person who seemed to be the lead player in the story--he was the main tail--he was the one who followed the victim and his friends to his car--he is the one who told them to stop[purpotedly] here is a victim account--Referring to Isnora, Guzman said, "This dude is shooting like he's crazy, like he's out of his mind."

I can't take away some kind of racial bias of an African-American cop shooting other African_Americans with mostly ethnic back up police officers. We probably don't know the situation or will we ever but to call this racist is out of this world. There certainly was huge mistakes --from what i read seems like criminal negligence in a few areas--the cops should NOT have got off free and I see injustice there--there is no doubt about it---but this is not a case where 4 white police officers shot an ethnic man--this is a cse of an African-American shooting another--for reasons unknown--and his cop friends backed him up[which is what they do]. There is no explanation for shooting 50 times--this is criminal and the cops made horrible deadly misjudgement that should cal for jail time--but this is not a racial thing unless you have 12 white people on the jury which was not the case.


http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2007/03/20/amd_isnora.jpg

BRIGGS, the thing is that it's more about the systemic mistreatment of people of color by white dominated institutions, and in this case it is often young males who are the direct target on a consistent basis (but this of course affects their loved ones and their communities). This case didn't take place in a vacuum as it is indicative of the consistent failure of policies and other institutions that are supposed to help. Over such a long period of time it is hard to just look at as an example of failure, but of systemic neglect or disregard for folks with less power and privilege.

This happens in other areas of life too, not just with the police. I recently did some community organizing work with Harlem residents who live in SRO (Single Room Occupancy) designated buildings/hotels that are specifically designed for low-income, disabled, and elderly folks who need affordable housing (and are mostly Latino and African-Americans). Well, more than a few of the landlords of these "hotels" are illegally converting and renovating some rooms into real hotel rooms (that are MUCH nicer, and I know folks who have been to these places and seen distinct differences) to offer on the cheap (but at a major profit to the lanbdlords compared to what they get from SRO tenants) to who are often young European tourists, while simultaneously harassing residents and neglecting maintenance and upkeep of their rooms.

This illegal activity at the expense of less powerful and privileged people is going unchecked by any enforcement agency even though residents and newspapers have covered and brought this this problem for years to the public for help.

If this was a mostly white, well-off residence do we honestly think that the same result would occur?

The owner could be a person of color exploiting the lack of power and privilege the residents have, and it would still be the same, in part because of his/her actions but also how the agencies that might have power to intervene, and are not, are dominated by whites and "white culture" which is far less likely to have the same kind of connections to the experience of lacking power and privilege.

When Bush cried let's go to war with mostly brown people who scare us in the Middle-East many said, YEAH!" If Sharpton cries let's fight the systemic racism that disproportionately affects communities of color, by the mostly white NYPD we go, "It's not really racism."

Is that not something we should be asking ourselves about?

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-25-2008 12:58 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-25-2008 1:00 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-25-2008 1:01 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Killa4luv
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4/25/2008  1:01 PM
PresIke, maybe you really should be the president?
EnySpree
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4/25/2008  1:12 PM
Sharpton is speaking on it now.

He's absolutely correct, btw......wonder if someone will youtube this.
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EnySpree
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4/25/2008  1:19 PM
"Not a miscarriage of justice of justice.....this was an abortion of justice" - al sharpton.

I don't like the dude more times than none.....but he is going about this correctly. Federal goverment will be asked to intervene.....he talked of committing acts of non-violent civil disobedience. Protesting, rallies, and demonstrations, etc.

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EnySpree
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4/25/2008  1:28 PM
The Cops are making their comments......the black cop was the only one that apologized to the Bell family, and displayed and type of real sorrow.

Its sickening.

Micheal Pallidino is the union president. He talked about feeling sympathy for having his own kids. Bull****. He was the main one fighting al sharpton with a war of spin. Fuck him. I'm just so deeply disturbed. He's just thanking people like he won an emmy.

Cooper fired 4 times 1 shot hit the airtrain and no shots hit any of the dudes in the car. He was the only one that reached out and apologized to the Bell family.

Now Pallidino is talkin **** about the benifield testimony, talking about the national action network....talking about a 50 million dollar law suit. Fuck this guy....50 shots bitch! Fuck this man. He is a devil. Saying **** like the judge saw through the arrogance of the victoms......what? They were shot 50 times!

I'm deeply disturbed.
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BRIGGS
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4/25/2008  1:38 PM
Posted by PresIke:
Posted by BRIGGS:

I think this is a case of reckless endangerment and possibly manslaughter but if you have read the case--a young African-American cop named Gescard Isnora is the person who seemed to be the lead player in the story--he was the main tail--he was the one who followed the victim and his friends to his car--he is the one who told them to stop[purpotedly] here is a victim account--Referring to Isnora, Guzman said, "This dude is shooting like he's crazy, like he's out of his mind."

I can't take away some kind of racial bias of an African-American cop shooting other African_Americans with mostly ethnic back up police officers. We probably don't know the situation or will we ever but to call this racist is out of this world. There certainly was huge mistakes --from what i read seems like criminal negligence in a few areas--the cops should NOT have got off free and I see injustice there--there is no doubt about it---but this is not a case where 4 white police officers shot an ethnic man--this is a cse of an African-American shooting another--for reasons unknown--and his cop friends backed him up[which is what they do]. There is no explanation for shooting 50 times--this is criminal and the cops made horrible deadly misjudgement that should cal for jail time--but this is not a racial thing unless you have 12 white people on the jury which was not the case.


http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2007/03/20/amd_isnora.jpg

BRIGGS, the thing is that it's more about the systemic mistreatment of people of color by white dominated institutions, and in this case it is often young males who are the direct target on a consistent basis (but this of course affects their loved ones and their communities). This case didn't take place in a vacuum as it is indicative of the consistent failure of policies and other institutions that are supposed to help. Over such a long period of time it is hard to just look at as an example of failure, but of systemic neglect or disregard for folks with less power and privilege.

This happens in other areas of life too, not just with the police. I recently did some community organizing work with Harlem residents who live in SRO (Single Room Occupancy) designated buildings/hotels that are specifically designed for low-income, disabled, and elderly folks who need affordable housing (and are mostly Latino and African-Americans). Well, more than a few of the landlords of these "hotels" are illegally converting and renovating some rooms into real hotel rooms (that are MUCH nicer, and I know folks who have been to these places and seen distinct differences) to offer on the cheap (but at a major profit to the lanbdlords compared to what they get from SRO tenants) to who are often young European tourists, while simultaneously harassing residents and neglecting maintenance and upkeep of their rooms.

This illegal activity at the expense of less powerful and privileged people is going unchecked by any enforcement agency even though residents and newspapers have covered and brought this this problem for years to the public for help.

If this was a mostly white, well-off residence do we honestly think that the same result would occur?

The owner could be a person of color exploiting the lack of power and privilege the residents have, and it would still be the same, in part because of his/her actions but also how the agencies that might have power to intervene, and are not, are dominated by whites and "white culture" which is far less likely to have the same kind of connections to the experience of lacking power and privilege.

When Bush cried let's go to war with mostly brown people who scare us in the Middle-East many said, YEAH!" If Sharpton cries let's fight the systemic racism that disproportionately affects communities of color, by the mostly white NYPD we go, "It's not really racism."

Is that not something we should be asking ourselves about?

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-25-2008 12:58 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-25-2008 1:00 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-25-2008 1:01 PM]



What you are insinuating is that there is some kind of huge racial conspiracy that had a cause-effect on this partiuclar incident. This is a case of a African-American police officer who --for some unkown reason--decided to start shooting at these three men. For all we know it could be a cop who got pirsed off by something one of the guys and used his shield and gun to be judge and jury--and I think that is what we have here. This police officer was judge and jury and the effect was a death. I think there is crime here but racist crime or some kind of conspiracy from the instutional level--take 10 steps back!
Every incident in the USA that has a negative connotation with an African American is not racist. You don't have the facts to back up anything you said about this incident-you wre not there. You are genralizing and radically speculating. I just went by the *facts* that I read on the case. The African american police officer seemed to go off and act as judge and jury and his partners back him up. The African American Police officer and his partners were probably let off at the end of the day due to *collateral damage* meaning they probably did fck up but it comes with the job--much like a bomb dropping from the sky killing people it didnt mean to hit. Not right but not racist.
RIP Crushalot😞
EnySpree
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4/25/2008  1:44 PM
Not racist.....police brutality.
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playa2
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4/25/2008  1:48 PM
There is a mass email and emergency posters posted to announce a march at 5:00 on Queens Blvd. today.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
Killa4luv
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4/25/2008  2:00 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

Not racist.....police brutality.

No it is racist. This NEVER happens to white people. We need to be clear on what racism means. If a law is structured in a way, that punishes a certain ethnic group more for that crime, when all available data shows that another ethnic group commits said crime more often, than thats a racist law. The person who drafted it and the people who voted it dont have to be racists, its impact, its outcomes are racist. This is called institutional racismhttp://www.sentencingproject.org/pdfs/1003.pdf.

Cops police a whole city, and I have never heard of 1 time the police shot an unarmed white guy or group of guys because they thought they had a gun. Because a black person pulled the trigger doesn't make the action any less based on racial stereotypes. It was racist. Police brutality is racist. ENY do you think the police are doing what they do in white communities. Even many black and latin police officers complain about it.

Why do they always see a gun where there is none?
arkrud
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4/25/2008  2:06 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

Not racist.....police brutality.

I don't think it is appropriate to judge this case without deep knowledge of the matter.
We know that police has basically only 2 choices:
1. Get in and face it... and yes, kill people and get killed. And yes... sometimes for no reason
2. Just stay out and let it go the way it is.

So what do you prefer?
Do you believe that society without police intervention will be better and you will feel yourself more secure?
Or you want to exclusively get police out of areas populated mostly with people of color? Then will it be OK for you to leave in these places?

If this cops will be convicted it will create the precedent and police will just let it go next time.
They will just step out and let real gangs kill each other and everybody who happened to be on hand.
Is this what you want?
And for Sharpton and others political junkies to make political capital form the tragedy is even more disgusting, not talking about putting more innocent lives in danger if this will produce some kind of riots.


[Edited by - arkrud on 04-25-2008 2:07 PM]

[Edited by - arkrud on 04-25-2008 2:07 PM]
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
EnySpree
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4/25/2008  2:31 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by EnySpree:

Not racist.....police brutality.

No it is racist. This NEVER happens to white people. We need to be clear on what racism means. If a law is structured in a way, that punishes a certain ethnic group more for that crime, when all available data shows that another ethnic group commits said crime more often, than thats a racist law. The person who drafted it and the people who voted it dont have to be racists, its impact, its outcomes are racist. This is called institutional racismhttp://www.sentencingproject.org/pdfs/1003.pdf.

Cops police a whole city, and I have never heard of 1 time the police shot an unarmed white guy or group of guys because they thought they had a gun. Because a black person pulled the trigger doesn't make the action any less based on racial stereotypes. It was racist. Police brutality is racist. ENY do you think the police are doing what they do in white communities. Even many black and latin police officers complain about it.

Why do they always see a gun where there is none?

You are absolutely right Killah. I'm just trying to dead the talk that since a black cop and a hispanic cop was involved that its not racist nonsense......takes away from the argument, cuz then the focus is on race instead of the act........edit:the pattern of police brutality on the black community

You are definately correct though.

[Edited by - enyspree on 25-04-2008 2:41 PM]
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EnySpree
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4/25/2008  2:38 PM
Police should not be shooting 50 un answered shots akrud.

Read killahs last post.
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BRIGGS
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4/25/2008  2:43 PM
It is impossible to have a reasonable discussion when people are so far to one side of the equation.

I tend to see race relations in a positive view. If you look at history in a longer term view--would an African-American slave from 1861 ever believe that in 2008 he could see an African_American President of that same country? That is a very short period if we are talking time on Earth. I like to think that cause and effect is much more prevalent that radical unjustified racism. And I believe this is the case.

Was Pat Tillman killed by innocent misfire? If so, why didn't the US Army quickly own up to it? If Pat Tillman was a black man this would be considered one of the worst racial incidents in modern history?


Could a very large African-American crime rate have a cause and effect problem with the police? Well police are there to protect from crime and if a majority of criminals come from one sector of the multi-racial population--statistically you would have to believe that African Americans will have the majority of incident with police in general--whether that incident be right or wrong--there is always going to be collateral damage.

When you go on a plane--do you look around for Arab_Americans? Cause--effect.

RIP Crushalot😞
EnySpree
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4/25/2008  2:52 PM
Briggs......what does any of that have to do with sean bell?

What are you saying? It sounds to me like you are suggesting the 50 shots were justified cause of the high crime in the area. Water under the bridge? Casualties of war?
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tkf
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4/25/2008  3:07 PM
absolutely disgusting, tragic and just plain sad....
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Starks1994
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4/25/2008  3:15 PM
I'm Cuban, so I guess it doesn't effect me. If thats what you wanted to hear??? ...not sure what you were going for.

I'm just as outraged as this as anyone. I just see it as a police brutality issue more so than a race one... If the cops were white, then I would think differently

If you live in NYC, its impossible to think race issues aren;t real. They are.
Posted by EnySpree:

You know it annoys me how people can spin it back on me saying I'm making it a racial thing......

I already explained how it effects me and people like me.

How does it effect you guys, freeskier, starks? Race aside since that is your only issue. Race aside how does this effect you?

I NEED AN ANSWER!

http://starksraving.com/
freeskier
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4/25/2008  3:37 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

You know it annoys me how people can spin it back on me saying I'm making it a racial thing......

I already explained how it effects me and people like me.

How does it effect you guys, freeskier, starks? Race aside since that is your only issue. Race aside how does this effect you?

I NEED AN ANSWER!

Obviously you don't value young black men either.

first off don't make assumptions about my values.

race aside, i agree with you. it's clearly an abuse of power. it's clearly a lot of f*d up events that ended in the worst possible scenario. but is this case exemplary of "the pattern of police brutality on the black community?" at face value yes.

however, i think that dangerously oversimplifies the situation. i think that is drawing a lot of generalizations from facts that only witnesses to the event know. i don't think you can definitively say that if sean bell were latino, jewish, muslim, white, or asian that this wouldn't have happened.

i think that the f*d-upness of the situation is compounded by sean bell being black. i think that it highlights a large part of what IS wrong with police relations. but i don't think that you can conclude a cause-effect relationship between the events of that night and his being black.

what do i mean by what f*d-upness is compounded? for a start:
The number of American adults is about 230 million, meaning that one in every 99.1 adults is behind bars.
Incarceration rates are even higher for some groups. One in 36 adult Hispanic men is behind bars, based on Justice Department figures for 2006. One in 15 adult black men is, too, as is one in nine black men ages 20 to 34.
The report, from the Pew Center on the States, also found that one in 355 white women ages 35 to 39 is behind bars, compared with one in 100 black women.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/29/us/29prison.html?scp=62&sq=&st=nyt

and also i think this study is interesting and worth discussing
http://www.diversityinc.com/public/3412.cfm
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