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I dont see how we are going to pay Lee Nate + possiby Crawford and retain cap space
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Siar617
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4/7/2008  7:56 PM
its simple to me trade both lee and nate
especially for picks this yr niehter are franchise players
so i dont really see the need to grip the teams cap for them
you wouldn't really be doin them wrong because where ever
we move them will probably be better at least short term for them anyway

i think trying to move nate to portland for thier #1 helps both the knicks and port he is a local talent and proven player and the can clear cap by loading miles onto us for rose

lee can be moved to mutiple teams but a move to indi would be good if we are trying to get oneal
oneal and thier #1 for lee and steph

jc id actually keep around for awhile
his skills as a combo gaurd will probly be needed since we are bringing in a pg in this upcoming draft
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King1
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4/7/2008  8:29 PM
Okay let me see the logic here. You want to trade Lee and Robinson and not resign Crawford. Briggs wants to draft two projects and see if they work out. By the time 2010 comes you will be ready to pay these two draft picks and who knows if they will work out. Who would you have to play even if you got a Lebron or Wade? This isnt a great draft and drafting two preojects to me is not very smart. THis draft has two great players and then drops after that. If you didnt get a good player in 2010 where would this team be?
BRIGGS
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4/7/2008  8:46 PM
Posted by King1:

Okay let me see the logic here. You want to trade Lee and Robinson and not resign Crawford. Briggs wants to draft two projects and see if they work out. By the time 2010 comes you will be ready to pay these two draft picks and who knows if they will work out. Who would you have to play even if you got a Lebron or Wade? This isnt a great draft and drafting two preojects to me is not very smart. THis draft has two great players and then drops after that. If you didnt get a good player in 2010 where would this team be?

King 1--how does a project average 15-9-2 and 14-7-3 respectively in basically their first year in college?

What were David Lee's stats as a senior? 13-9 Now I do think it was insane to trade Elton Brand for what would be considered a project--although Tyson Chndler did not turn out badly. You see one thing I see something different. Every year there are multiple great ball players pulled from the draft--there are rarely and I mean rarely 2. This talent pool to 20 is the best Ive seen in the last 3 years. You are going to see multiple stars coming from this group.

The deal here king 1 is what do the Knicks want to do--do they think they have a winning club here and start paying everyone to stay? If they do they do not get the cap room they desire. On top of it--what has this group earned in the W-L column? Rookies are salary structured for 4 years. What is your plan--status quo? How many games have we won the last 6 years?
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newyorknewyork
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4/7/2008  8:58 PM
2 things seem to be throwing people off.

#1 IF we resign Lee & Nate or trade them for draft picks it *wouldn't matter* im not saying we should keep them or we should trade them. The only thing that would matter would be to keep our cap sitatuion to 37mil at most by 2010/2011. Now *IF* we choose to keep Lee & Nate then we would need to trade Crawford & Curry for shorter contracts so that we would be able to maintain a 37mil cap figure by 2010/2011. Thats what I care about, the 36-37mil cap figure.

#2 While the idea would be to get Lebron. He would only be one out of many option that would become a possibility with a 37mil salary cap(17.3mil of that would be Randolphs contract). So with a 37mil cap figure and a 55-59mil salary cap. That would give us from 18-22mil in cap space for 2010/2011. Plus the 2 lottery picks we would be adding the 2 prior yrs. We would have 2 high lottery picks and 20mil in cap space to build a team with. The following season Randolph would come off the books unloading another 17mil. Giving us another 17mil to play with. With flexability like that. Thats when teams give you draft picks to eat contracts with 1 yr left. Or we could sit on that 17mil and keep it to resign our lottery picks who would become free agents in 2 more seasons. Or we could sign another lower free agent.

In the end its not about Lee, Nate or even Lebron. Its all about the flexability to build a contender which we have the opportunity to get EASILY.
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TrueBlue
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4/7/2008  9:03 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

2 things seem to be throwing people off.

#1 IF we resign Lee & Nate or trade them for draft picks it *wouldn't matter* im not saying we should keep them or we should trade them. The only thing that would matter would be to keep our cap sitatuion to 37mil at most by 2010/2011. Now *IF* we choose to keep Lee & Nate then we would need to trade Crawford & Curry for shorter contracts so that we would be able to maintain a 37mil cap figure by 2010/2011. Thats what I care about, the 36-37mil cap figure.

#2 While the idea would be to get Lebron. He would only be one out of many option that would become a possibility with a 37mil salary cap(17.3mil of that would be Randolphs contract). So with a 37mil cap figure and a 55-59mil salary cap. That would give us from 18-22mil in cap space for 2010/2011. Plus the 2 lottery picks we would be adding the 2 prior yrs. We would have 2 high lottery picks and 20mil in cap space to build a team with. The following season Randolph would come off the books unloading another 17mil. Giving us another 17mil to play with. With flexability like that. Thats when teams give you draft picks to eat contracts with 1 yr left. Or we could sit on that 17mil and keep it to resign our lottery picks who would become free agents in 2 more seasons. Or we could sign another lower free agent.

In the end its not about Lee, Nate or even Lebron. Its all about the flexability to build a contender which we have the opportunity to get EASILY.


Where are you getting $37mil from?
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newyorknewyork
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4/7/2008  9:09 PM
Where are you getting $37mil from?

Like I stated earlier in the thread which nobody seems to want to read what I have been writing.

Walsh doesn't have to do anything to get cap space by 2009/2010. As it stands now we are set to have a 28mil cap by *EDIT 2010/2011*. You add 2 high lottery picks at 4mil a pop by that yr that would be 36-37 salary cap if we were not to resign Lee or Nate.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm
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TrueBlue
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4/7/2008  9:17 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Where are you getting $37mil from?

Like I stated earlier in the thread which nobody seems to want to read what I have been writing.

Walsh doesn't have to do anything to get cap space by 2009/2010. As it stands now we are set to have a 28mil cap by *EDIT 2010/2011*. You add 2 high lottery picks at 4mil a pop by that yr that would be 36-37 salary cap if we were not to resign Lee or Nate.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm


You have to look at the PO's on Curry and Jeffries. Do you honestly think they opt out at those figures? You realize the $28mil is Zach's salary, Craw's salary and Balkman's TO. You have to then assume Curry and Jeff don't opt out addd another $28mil plus the picks.


[Edited by - TrueBlue on 04-07-2008 8:18 PM]
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newyorknewyork
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4/7/2008  9:29 PM
Your right im looking at the cap figure but I didn't pay attention to the fact that Jefferies & Curry's PO didn't count toward it. I just looked at the bottom total cap.

So no matter what we would need to trade Curry & Crawford for shorter contracts if we wanted that type of cap space for 2010/2011. Or we could sit still and just unload everyone in 2011/2012. If we were to keep Lee & Nate and not trade Curry or Crawford we wouldn't get a ton of cap space until 2011/2012.

[Edited by - newyorknewyork on 04-07-2008 9:30 PM]
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TrueBlue
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4/7/2008  9:33 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Your right im looking at the cap figure but I didn't pay attention to the fact that Jefferies & Curry's PO didn't count toward it. I just looked at the bottom total cap.

So no matter what we would need to trade Curry & Crawford for shorter contracts if we wanted that type of cap space for 2010/2011. Or we could sit still and just unload everyone in 2011/2012. If we were to keep Lee & Nate and not trade Curry or Crawford we wouldn't get a ton of cap space until 2011/2012.

[Edited by - newyorknewyork on 04-07-2008 9:30 PM]

See my other longer post in this thread. I believe that's what Donnie will do. People have to understand we won't have a shot at Lebron unless we do some major unloading, which may mean giving up Lee and/or Nate if we do.

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knicks1248
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4/7/2008  9:52 PM
You guy's are actually willing to reconstruct your entire plan around one player thats not on your team. And cleveland is going to let lebron just walk away with out the least bit of a struggle. Imagine doing that a few years back in hopes of signing Kobe, shaq, Td. The more likely senerio is a sign and trade.
ES
knicks1248
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4/7/2008  9:53 PM
You guy's are actually willing to reconstruct your entire plan around one player thats not on your team. And cleveland is going to let lebron just walk away with out the least bit of a struggle. Imagine doing that a few years back in hopes of signing Kobe, shaq, Td. The more likely senerio is a sign and trade.
ES
newyorknewyork
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4/7/2008  10:00 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Your right im looking at the cap figure but I didn't pay attention to the fact that Jefferies & Curry's PO didn't count toward it. I just looked at the bottom total cap.

So no matter what we would need to trade Curry & Crawford for shorter contracts if we wanted that type of cap space for 2010/2011. Or we could sit still and just unload everyone in 2011/2012. If we were to keep Lee & Nate and not trade Curry or Crawford we wouldn't get a ton of cap space until 2011/2012.

[Edited by - newyorknewyork on 04-07-2008 9:30 PM]

See my other longer post in this thread. I believe that's what Donnie will do. People have to understand we won't have a shot at Lebron unless we do some major unloading, which may mean giving up Lee and/or Nate if we do.

Now I see the confusion between me, briggs, bitty.

The best bet to get cap space earlier would be to trade Lee & Nate for draft picks & trade Curry & Crawford for expring deals. Or package these players together for ending salary and future latter picks.
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franco12
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4/7/2008  11:27 PM
Posted by knicks1248:

You guy's are actually willing to reconstruct your entire plan around one player thats not on your team. And cleveland is going to let lebron just walk away with out the least bit of a struggle. Imagine doing that a few years back in hopes of signing Kobe, shaq, Td. The more likely senerio is a sign and trade.

I don't think anyone is depending on Lebron - its a question of realizing our roster is full of overpaid crap players and if we're ever going to get better we need a superstar and flexibility.

Our better bet is clearly to get a superstar through the draft - but we need to be prepared either way.
Stevo718
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4/8/2008  2:30 AM
The only way you get under the cap in 2010 is to get rid of Zach and Jeffries contract or about $23 mil total.
Anji
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4/8/2008  10:48 AM
Basically if Walsh is centered around getting 2 of 6 salaries off the cap in two season when a number of allstar/franchise Players are going to be Free agents in the 2010/11 season:

Joe Johnson
Lebron James
Dewayne Wade
Micheal redd
Amare Stoudemire
Chris Bosh

The players we need to come off the cap are Crawford, Randolph, Curry, and Jeffries. Most every other player should be either bought out or resigned. Here is how the year by year numbers work out if they do:
2008/09
-Knicks draft a top 5 player- Cap plus 4million

-Knicks accept option for Lee, Robinson, Balkman, Chandler and Collins- Cap plus 7 million

-Knicks Let Marburys 21.9 millions and Malik Roses 7.1 million dollar contracts expire- Cap minus 29 million

-Knicks don't add any contracts that run longer then two years

-Knicks don't have a MLE for the next 2 seasons because it would have to be a contract of atleast 3 years

Esimated Cap number for the start of next season 65million


2009/10
Knicks draft a top 10 player-Cap plus 2million

Knicks Let Quentin richardsons 9.3 million and Jerome james 6.6 million dollar contracts expire- Cap Minus 15.9 million

Knicks resign nate Robinson to a 16 million 4 year contract-Plus 4 million

Knicks accept options for Balkman, Collins, Chandler and 08 rookie(.5 increase)- Cap plus 12 million

Esimated Cap number for the start of next season million 48.9 million dollars


2010/2011 Season
-Knicks lose draft pick to the Jazz

-Knicks accept option for Chandler, 08 rookie and 09 rookie- Cap plus 9.6 million

-Knicks have 45.3 million in expirings with Jamal Crawford, Zach Randolph, Jared jeffries, and Eddie Curry

Total cap 59 million and likely very close to that years cap salary cap(around 62 if you trade Lee for a draft pick this year)


So as of right now the Knicks Don't use the MLE, they would have to not sign Lee and trade 2 of JC/JJ2/Curry or just Zaches contract to be under the cap enough to give out a max contract in two years.
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4/8/2008  1:02 PM
anji, good run down. that's why I think we can't accept the options on balkman, collins and maybe even chandler. unless they develop into something special or at the least a top 8 rotation guy on the team, let them expire - sign a free for league minimum to take their spots. that would cut 5 to 10 million off the cap for summer 2010.
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Siar617
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4/8/2008  1:26 PM
to me its not about lebron or getting any other free agent out there
its just lee and nate are not franchise guys and i dont want to pay them
and the chance to get 7'1 mcgee for lee is just a no brainer to me
its not like we have a center anyway
nate is a bench player with an attitude problem
major little mans dessease
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TrueBlue
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4/8/2008  1:57 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

anji, good run down. that's why I think we can't accept the options on balkman, collins and maybe even chandler. unless they develop into something special or at the least a top 8 rotation guy on the team, let them expire - sign a free for league minimum to take their spots. that would cut 5 to 10 million off the cap for summer 2010.

Actually there are few errors/unknowns in Anji's breakdown.

First of all our Cap number the start of 2008-2009 will be over $90mil once you include the pick if we move no one in the off-season. Anji meant to say at the end of the 2008-2009 season our cap number could look closer to $65mil all things unchanged with exception to what he cited.

Second of all we have no idea what DW's true intentions are for the MLE. He sounded like in the press conference he may not use it but in order to fill out the roster if he starts dumping contracts, he just might have too. Just because it's more advantageous for a player to sign a contract for 3ys or more does not mean we won't sign anyone to an MLE deal or for a good portion of the MLE. Nor does it mean DW will let it sit dormant for 2yrs(actually it would 3 considering we didn't use it this past season). Don't fool ourselves into thinking we'll sign someone like Ron Artest to a 2yr MLE contract is the main point. Take for instance Matt Barnes will be a Free Agent this summer, a player like him may want to sign an MLE deal say 2yrs at $4mil/yr. Theoretically we could(not to saying we will or should) use our MLE to sign someone of his caliber if DW were to dump some dead weight and young talent such as Jeffries/Chandler and/or Balkman/Q. Our Cap figure could increase over the next 2 seasons from trades, draft picks, and Contract Exemptions exercised. That's ok as long as when we hit the 3rd yr the greater majority comes off.

Third, come on, no way Nate signs for considerably less than the MLE. $4mil/yr for Nate are you kidding me. Marcus Banks got that and he's absolute garbage. 4yrs/$16mil would mean Nate's first yr salary would be less than $4mil. Keep on thinking we can low ball our own players and retain them. And I'm called a hater good grief. Nate would have to suffer a major injury keeping him out next yr for this to happen and even then it's doubtful. The MLE will be closer to $6mil than it will be $4mil.

Fourth at the end of the 2009-2010 season our cap number will not be $48mil more like $54-55mil all things unchanged with exception to draft picks, and Nate's low ball $4mil deal



[Edited by - TrueBlue on 04-08-2008 1:03 PM]
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EwingsGlass
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4/8/2008  2:12 PM
An interesting point to consider is that the CBA expires after the 2010/11 season, although the NBA holds a 1 year renewal option for 2011/12. What this means is that the salary cap as we understand it will not likely be the same after 2011/2012. It would be hard to believe the NBA would take a stricter stance on the salary cap. I am guessing that is the intent. They might do something to limit Larry Bird rights, seeing that its use is one method of teams maintaing cap problems. But you never know, they might make a complete change to a NFL style salary cap. I would think that cap room prior to 2010/11 will be far more valuable than cap room afterwards. And planning for cap room in 2011/2012 might be pointless. I would expect superstars to lock up max player contracts prior to 2010/11 because you don't know what you are dealing with after the CBA expires...
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Anji
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4/9/2008  12:30 AM
Posted by crzymdups:

anji, good run down. that's why I think we can't accept the options on balkman, collins and maybe even chandler. unless they develop into something special or at the least a top 8 rotation guy on the team, let them expire - sign a free for league minimum to take their spots. that would cut 5 to 10 million off the cap for summer 2010.

Basically we can't use MLE unless we subtract another one of the four(JC,JJ, JJ2, Zach) that are on the books in 10/11

Like you said we really shouldn't resign any player, even I though I kept nate for 3 million we really shouldn't. It would save use a decent amount of money. Nate is probably a 6th man, so I would like to keep him. Lees extension would kill any chance of getting under the cap though.

But not matter what we do, either Zach or two of Curry, JJ2 or JC have to be off the books in two full seasons for us to sign a bigtime FA. That is going to be hard to do, but if we draft a great kid this year, maybe Walsh can pull it off.
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I dont see how we are going to pay Lee Nate + possiby Crawford and retain cap space
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