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Idea to limit tanking
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Bonn1997
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3/26/2008  4:45 PM
Posted by TMS:

give all the teams that don't make the playoffs an equal chance of winning 1 of the top 3 picks... then seed the rest accordingly based on regular season records after that... i think that's the best way to limit obvious tank jobs.

I've thought about that. I'm not sure if that goes too far in the other direction. Should a 50 win team like Dallas or Denver (or whoever doesn't make the playoffs in the west) really have an equal chance at getting a top 3 pick with us and the T-Wolves and the other 25 win teams? I like your idea of having picks after 3 go in order of record. That partly addresses the problem and is definitely better than what we have now. I think your idea is good enough that it should be submitted to Mr. Stern.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 03-26-2008 4:46 PM]
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TMS
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3/26/2008  5:07 PM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by TMS:

give all the teams that don't make the playoffs an equal chance of winning 1 of the top 3 picks... then seed the rest accordingly based on regular season records after that... i think that's the best way to limit obvious tank jobs.

Now that's a good idea. Then maybe I will get nba league pass again and stop moochin off other people.

Who you calling obviouse?

So there will be 14 teams that don't make the playoffs and the 14th team should get just as much chance of getting the #1 as the worst teams in the league? Maybe you haven't noticed, but the Knicks' are one of the worst in the last three years now. I like our chances of getting a top two now. With that much competition, we wouldn't stand much chance.

Why anyone would defend against something like 'tanking a season' is beyond me. Take the Knicks for instance. We just plain stink! Of course I'd want this opportunity, even if it means tanking at the end. Keep it the way it is. There's a reason why the tops go to the worst.

why should a team like the Knicks who've squandered millions of dollars on unwise player acquisitions & been the model of horrible mismanagement of the cap & misuse of lottery picks be rewarded by getting a top lottery pick? the league owes us nothing... obviously as a Knicks fan i am in favor of tanking games to get that top pick as i have been ever since Yao & later Lebron were coming out in the draft, but that doesn't mean i think the system is good for the betterment of the league... just because you get an equal shot at winning the lottery in my system as a bottom dweller doesn't mean you're gonna get that pick... it's just a way of helping to battle against teams purposely losing games after they're mathematically eliminated from playoffs contention... until such a system is implemented i want the Knicks to take full advantage of it & TANK TANK TANK!
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
djsunyc
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3/26/2008  5:08 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by BasketballJones:

I don't think tanks should be eliminated. I think these little politenesses help reduce friction in our society. I always say 'please' and 'tank you'. That's just the way I was brought up.

Tanks for listening.

a little algebra...

what's 5Q + 5Q = ?

10Q

10Q very, very much.

you're welcome...

what's 2Q + 2Q = ?

[Edited by - djsunyc on 03-26-2008 5:09 PM]
TrueBlue
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3/26/2008  5:16 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:

give all the teams that don't make the playoffs an equal chance of winning 1 of the top 3 picks... then seed the rest accordingly based on regular season records after that... i think that's the best way to limit obvious tank jobs.

I've thought about that. I'm not sure if that goes too far in the other direction. Should a 50 win team like Dallas or Denver (or whoever doesn't make the playoffs in the west) really have an equal chance at getting a top 3 pick with us and the T-Wolves and the other 25 win teams? I like your idea of having picks after 3 go in order of record. That partly addresses the problem and is definitely better than what we have now. I think your idea is good enough that it should be submitted to Mr. Stern.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 03-26-2008 4:46 PM]


The lottery is obviously designed to help the bad teams get better, what I would like see is the system give the teams increased chances based on incentive type rewards. Say giving a team extra ping-pongs if they play their starters(all five those who started most of the season) all the way until the end of the season(injuries or no injuries). If a team's starters play above their season averages last month of the season give them more ping-pongs. If the argument is what's the big deal teams that usually tank don't come out on top anyway...... well this just goes to show Stern can manipulate the system any way he chooses to and we all know he has. So why not have a more just and judicial system that hinders teams crapping on the regular season?

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 03-26-2008 4:17 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
4949
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3/26/2008  5:25 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by TMS:

give all the teams that don't make the playoffs an equal chance of winning 1 of the top 3 picks... then seed the rest accordingly based on regular season records after that... i think that's the best way to limit obvious tank jobs.

Now that's a good idea. Then maybe I will get nba league pass again and stop moochin off other people.

Who you calling obviouse?

So there will be 14 teams that don't make the playoffs and the 14th team should get just as much chance of getting the #1 as the worst teams in the league? Maybe you haven't noticed, but the Knicks' are one of the worst in the last three years now. I like our chances of getting a top two now. With that much competition, we wouldn't stand much chance.

Why anyone would defend against something like 'tanking a season' is beyond me. Take the Knicks for instance. We just plain stink! Of course I'd want this opportunity, even if it means tanking at the end. Keep it the way it is. There's a reason why the tops go to the worst.

why should a team like the Knicks who've squandered millions of dollars on unwise player acquisitions & been the model of horrible mismanagement of the cap & misuse of lottery picks be rewarded by getting a top lottery pick? the league owes us nothing... obviously as a Knicks fan i am in favor of tanking games to get that top pick as i have been ever since Yao & later Lebron were coming out in the draft, but that doesn't mean i think the system is good for the betterment of the league... just because you get an equal shot at winning the lottery in my system as a bottom dweller doesn't mean you're gonna get that pick... it's just a way of helping to battle against teams purposely losing games after they're mathematically eliminated from playoffs contention... until such a system is implemented i want the Knicks to take full advantage of it & TANK TANK TANK!

Okay.............well.................I guess we're in agreement. The system certainly helped the Pistons, when they drafted isiah. They went from losing team to eventually championship team. It helped the San Antonio Spurs go from losing team to winning team when they drafted Mr. Robison and then several years later, drafted Tim Duncan. Now their champions, because they build it right.

Some people would argue that they got lucky, but just how un-lucky does that make us? Fuck it! Tank, tank, tank all the way!!!!!! Get what we can. Our biggest problem is not just getting lucky in the draft (and this is as lucky as we'll get apparently) but the moronic moves made by non-management people in our system, starting with a crazed owner.

For the kind of city we come from, the Knicks are by far the worst of any other city with a basketball team. We don't even break into the top 39 teams, with the best winning percentages of all time, in a single season! We've been in the league for 60 years! We have no major superstars 'of all-time' in our franchise and certainly own virtually no records, both individually or as a team in this league.

We have goten used to drafting whatever and trading whatever in hopes' of even having a winning season. I could go on and on but I don't want to spend my life telling this sad story. We need to demand the best of ourselves is all I'm saying. And if people don't know what the best is, well then, don't expect to win anything. That means, don't undermind a system that could actually (and finally) work for us as a start. That goes for anyone who dissagrees with this statement.
I'll never trust this' team again.
TMS
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3/26/2008  5:26 PM
the league should not be in a position to manipulate team's lineups one way or the other... u can't reward teams w/more ping pong balls by playing certain guys more minutes than others... bottomline, it's about W's & L's in sports... u should be free to play whoever you want, as long as you play to win & not to lose theoretically... the current system rewards teams who lose more than others, & as long as that system is in place, we need to take full advantage of it.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
4949
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3/26/2008  5:32 PM
Posted by TMS:

the league should not be in a position to manipulate team's lineups one way or the other... u can't reward teams w/more ping pong balls by playing certain guys more minutes than others... bottomline, it's about W's & L's in sports... u should be free to play whoever you want, as long as you play to win & not to lose theoretically... the current system rewards teams who lose more than others, & as long as that system is in place, we need to take full advantage of it.

Yes' and what if a team who looks to be tanking, what if they want to start all of their young guys, like the Knicks, to see what they can do in a losing season? I mean the Heat decided to sit Wade, right? Nothing wrong with that.
I'll never trust this' team again.
TMS
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3/26/2008  5:40 PM
nothing wrong with it at all, but you shouldn't be rewarded for doing it, that's just the point of changing the system... don't penalize teams that are still competing to try & win games even when they're out of the playoff race... give each team an equal chance to land that top pick that don't make the playoffs & then let the chips fall where they may.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TrueBlue
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3/26/2008  5:41 PM
Posted by TMS:

the league should not be in a position to manipulate team's lineups one way or the other... u can't reward teams w/more ping pong balls by playing certain guys more minutes than others... bottomline, it's about W's & L's in sports... u should be free to play whoever you want, as long as you play to win & not to lose theoretically... the current system rewards teams who lose more than others, & as long as that system is in place, we need to take full advantage of it.

They wouldn't be manipulating because the team has the choice to defer. Teams can still run their line-ups how they want. If what you say applies then the current system in place is allowing teams to manipulate their line-ups by shutting their players down prematurely. If the league changes the lottery parameters teams will change how they operate throughout the season.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
4949
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3/26/2008  6:05 PM
Posted by TMS:

nothing wrong with it at all, but you shouldn't be rewarded for doing it, that's just the point of changing the system... don't penalize teams that are still competing to try & win games even when they're out of the playoff race... give each team an equal chance to land that top pick that don't make the playoffs & then let the chips fall where they may.

I'm not really sure how much more I can try to define this point. It's too much of a grey area to find a solution for. I just don't want all 14 teams (who didn't make the playoffs) to have the same chance as the worse team(s) of getting the #1 pick. That's all.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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3/26/2008  6:07 PM
But then again, why would I be against it?

I think it requires more thought.
I'll never trust this' team again.
TMS
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3/26/2008  6:17 PM
just as long as they wait til NEXT season to implement any new system... i want that top pick this year dammit! TANK TANK TANK!
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
4949
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3/26/2008  6:32 PM
Okay, I thought about it.

I like the system the way it is now. After the MIami Heat won the championship a couple years ago, and Wade went down and it was apparent that Shaq seen his last days, they did the right thing. Sacrificed a year and got rid of Shaq, sat Wade at the end and let the record fall as far down as possible. What would be the thing that would ruin it for them? The rooks, young players suddenly have superstar games, in the last 15 or so.

But instead, they are now in a position for a #1 pick. With Seattle, Memphis, Minnesota and the Knicks 19 wins to follow, with opportunities to get the #1, with limited odds. Works just fine from what I can see. Milwaukee is the next worst, with 25 wins. No way the Bucks are tanking to pass us up.
I'll never trust this' team again.
Vmart
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3/26/2008  9:05 PM
If you want tanking eliminated then you can't have a weighted system with the worst team getting the most ping pong balls. The envelope system was much better because everyone was on an equal playing field. I suggest a reverse order lottery with the best team that didn't make the playoffs getting the most balls, the worst team getting the least ping pong balls. This way a team isn't rewarded for tanking.
4949
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3/26/2008  9:12 PM
Posted by Vmart:

If you want tanking eliminated then you can't have a weighted system with the worst team getting the most ping pong balls. The envelope system was much better because everyone was on an equal playing field. I suggest a reverse order lottery with the best team that didn't make the playoffs getting the most balls, the worst team getting the least ping pong balls. This way a team isn't rewarded for tanking.

Screw that idea! I say we give most of the ping pong balls to the team that wins the NBA championship. They eraned it right? I think the Knicks, MIami and every other suck job should get nothing!
I'll never trust this' team again.
Vmart
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3/26/2008  9:16 PM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Vmart:

If you want tanking eliminated then you can't have a weighted system with the worst team getting the most ping pong balls. The envelope system was much better because everyone was on an equal playing field. I suggest a reverse order lottery with the best team that didn't make the playoffs getting the most balls, the worst team getting the least ping pong balls. This way a team isn't rewarded for tanking.

Screw that idea! I say we give most of the ping pong balls to the team that wins the NBA championship. They eraned it right? I think the Knicks, MIami and every other suck job should get nothing!

Thats a very good idea. another thing that should be implemented is allow all the teams into the lottery. This way if the better teams win the lottery they may make moves during draft night.

4949
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3/26/2008  9:26 PM
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Vmart:

If you want tanking eliminated then you can't have a weighted system with the worst team getting the most ping pong balls. The envelope system was much better because everyone was on an equal playing field. I suggest a reverse order lottery with the best team that didn't make the playoffs getting the most balls, the worst team getting the least ping pong balls. This way a team isn't rewarded for tanking.

Screw that idea! I say we give most of the ping pong balls to the team that wins the NBA championship. They eraned it right? I think the Knicks, MIami and every other suck job should get nothing!

Thats a very good idea. another thing that should be implemented is allow all the teams into the lottery. This way if the better teams win the lottery they may make moves during draft night.

Exactly and would make every other team start playing some damn basketball for a change and earn their stripes. I also think that if a team (in any sport) doesn't win a championship at least every 50 years, they should be thrown out of the leagues, out into the streets and bannished forever.
I'll never trust this' team again.
Panos
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3/26/2008  10:46 PM
Eureka, I've got it!

The lottery is based on a three year average winning percentage.
NO TEAM is going to tank on purpose for three straight years!
That insures against San Antonio Tim Duncan picks, and what the Heat did this year.
knicksbabyyeah
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3/27/2008  4:58 AM
Actually, why not make a link between losing and ticket prices? So when a team starts tanking the ticket prices should go down....
Bonn1997
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3/27/2008  5:53 AM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Vmart:

If you want tanking eliminated then you can't have a weighted system with the worst team getting the most ping pong balls. The envelope system was much better because everyone was on an equal playing field. I suggest a reverse order lottery with the best team that didn't make the playoffs getting the most balls, the worst team getting the least ping pong balls. This way a team isn't rewarded for tanking.

Screw that idea! I say we give most of the ping pong balls to the team that wins the NBA championship. They eraned it right? I think the Knicks, MIami and every other suck job should get nothing!
That's too generous to the crappy teams. I'd say only the two teams that make it to the finals should get draft picks. The championship team gets all 30 first found picks and the loser gets all 30 second round picks.
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