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ESPN'S Top 10 SGs of All - Time !
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purple012870
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3/12/2008  9:16 AM
How is Kobe being # 2 crazy??? What hasn't he done? Multiple championships...check. Money at crunch time...check. 1st to 20k points....check. Lock down defender...check.

Awards
10-time NBA All-Star
9-time All-NBA Selection
7-time All-Defensive Selection
3-time NBA Champion
2-time NBA All-Star MVP
2-time NBA Scoring Champion
1997 NBA Slam Dunk Champion
1996 Naismith Prep Player of the Year
1996-1997 All Rookie Second Team
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VDesai
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3/12/2008  11:04 AM
Agreed, Kobe at no.2 is an easy one to defend.

So I guess the Big O is considered a PG for the purposes of lists like these?
purple012870
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3/12/2008  11:12 AM
Big O is listed as a PG in ESPNs list. Personally, having watched a lot of footage of him, while I see that he was great then, I don't see his game translating now. NBA body? Yes. Strong? Yes. Necessary quickness, hops, shooting range, ball handling (he pretty much only dribbled with right hand)? Not even close.
EnySpree
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3/12/2008  12:03 PM
Posted by JrZyHuStLa:
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by DarkKnicks:

Reggie does not deserve to be the IMO, but maybe I just hate him so much for killing us everytime he could.

Reggie made his name playing the Knicks. He was pretty darn good for a dude that couldn't do anything but catch and shoot. Houston still owns him.



Eny, you have too many posts for me to not assume your intellectual sarcasm.

Houston doesn't own a thing besides a pair of surgically repaired knees. I'm not big on Allan Houston as most of the guys on this forum are. He was good, but on a totally different plateua compared to Reggie Miller. People give Houston too much credit because of his buzzer beater against Miami. The play was absolutely huge, I'm not denying that, but Reggie made a name for himself in clutch moments almost every time Indiana was going down to the wire. Yes, Miller was super one dimensional, but he MASTERED that single dimension to its maximum.

What are you talking about you psycho?

I'm refering to the Series where Houston made Reggie his bitch......it's during the same finals run. I ****ing hate Allan Houston. That is well documented. I masterbate to my hatred of Allan Houston!!!! At least his game.

And yeah reggie made a name for being clutch against the New York Knicks.....am i missing something?

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bitty41
Posts: 22316
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3/12/2008  12:06 PM
Posted by purple012870:

How is Kobe being # 2 crazy??? What hasn't he done? Multiple championships...check. Money at crunch time...check. 1st to 20k points....check. Lock down defender...check.

Awards
10-time NBA All-Star
9-time All-NBA Selection
7-time All-Defensive Selection
3-time NBA Champion
2-time NBA All-Star MVP
2-time NBA Scoring Champion
1997 NBA Slam Dunk Champion
1996 Naismith Prep Player of the Year
1996-1997 All Rookie Second Team

It isn't the numbers that I'm debating its about the eras, level of competition, and how the game was played in past periods as opposed to now. What I hate about alot of current basketball analysts is that they seem to be lacking a sense of history about the game of basketball. Its is if the so-called experts either started watching the game in the late 80's or they have just choosen to forget about how the game use to be played. I don't care if people say this is biased but outside of Shaq in his prime and Tim Duncan I'm hard pressed to say anyone in the current league is ranked in the top 5 at any position. Even Shaq I would say is around number 7 or even lower for his position. This is coming from someone who wasn't even born when most of these guys were playing but watching old videos, even ESPN classic games, and talking to older basketball fans the game has changed for the worst. Its more geared to hyping a super star then making players actually fight their way to the top. Guys like Lebron, Kobe, Jamal Crawford LOL, etc can drop 50 points on a given night with hardly any resistance.

But I knew this list was questionable when I saw Vince Carter and T-Mac got honorable mentions.
JrZyHuStLa
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3/12/2008  12:38 PM
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by JrZyHuStLa:
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by DarkKnicks:

Reggie does not deserve to be the IMO, but maybe I just hate him so much for killing us everytime he could.

Reggie made his name playing the Knicks. He was pretty darn good for a dude that couldn't do anything but catch and shoot. Houston still owns him.



Eny, you have too many posts for me to not assume your intellectual sarcasm.

Houston doesn't own a thing besides a pair of surgically repaired knees. I'm not big on Allan Houston as most of the guys on this forum are. He was good, but on a totally different plateua compared to Reggie Miller. People give Houston too much credit because of his buzzer beater against Miami. The play was absolutely huge, I'm not denying that, but Reggie made a name for himself in clutch moments almost every time Indiana was going down to the wire. Yes, Miller was super one dimensional, but he MASTERED that single dimension to its maximum.

What are you talking about you psycho?

I'm refering to the Series where Houston made Reggie his bitch......it's during the same finals run. I ****ing hate Allan Houston. That is well documented. I masterbate to my hatred of Allan Houston!!!! At least his game.

And yeah reggie made a name for being clutch against the New York Knicks.....am i missing something?

So Houston made Reggie his bitch for one series, what's your point ?
EnySpree
Posts: 44919
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3/12/2008  12:40 PM
Posted by JrZyHuStLa:
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by JrZyHuStLa:
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by DarkKnicks:

Reggie does not deserve to be the IMO, but maybe I just hate him so much for killing us everytime he could.

Reggie made his name playing the Knicks. He was pretty darn good for a dude that couldn't do anything but catch and shoot. Houston still owns him.



Eny, you have too many posts for me to not assume your intellectual sarcasm.

Houston doesn't own a thing besides a pair of surgically repaired knees. I'm not big on Allan Houston as most of the guys on this forum are. He was good, but on a totally different plateua compared to Reggie Miller. People give Houston too much credit because of his buzzer beater against Miami. The play was absolutely huge, I'm not denying that, but Reggie made a name for himself in clutch moments almost every time Indiana was going down to the wire. Yes, Miller was super one dimensional, but he MASTERED that single dimension to its maximum.

What are you talking about you psycho?

I'm refering to the Series where Houston made Reggie his bitch......it's during the same finals run. I ****ing hate Allan Houston. That is well documented. I masterbate to my hatred of Allan Houston!!!! At least his game.

And yeah reggie made a name for being clutch against the New York Knicks.....am i missing something?

So Houston made Reggie his bitch for one series, what's your point ?



What was the point of you commenting on my post then?
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islesfan
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3/12/2008  12:51 PM
Posted by bitty41:
Posted by purple012870:

How is Kobe being # 2 crazy??? What hasn't he done? Multiple championships...check. Money at crunch time...check. 1st to 20k points....check. Lock down defender...check.

Awards
10-time NBA All-Star
9-time All-NBA Selection
7-time All-Defensive Selection
3-time NBA Champion
2-time NBA All-Star MVP
2-time NBA Scoring Champion
1997 NBA Slam Dunk Champion
1996 Naismith Prep Player of the Year
1996-1997 All Rookie Second Team

It isn't the numbers that I'm debating its about the eras, level of competition, and how the game was played in past periods as opposed to now. What I hate about alot of current basketball analysts is that they seem to be lacking a sense of history about the game of basketball. Its is if the so-called experts either started watching the game in the late 80's or they have just choosen to forget about how the game use to be played. I don't care if people say this is biased but outside of Shaq in his prime and Tim Duncan I'm hard pressed to say anyone in the current league is ranked in the top 5 at any position. Even Shaq I would say is around number 7 or even lower for his position. This is coming from someone who wasn't even born when most of these guys were playing but watching old videos, even ESPN classic games, and talking to older basketball fans the game has changed for the worst. Its more geared to hyping a super star then making players actually fight their way to the top. Guys like Lebron, Kobe, Jamal Crawford LOL, etc can drop 50 points on a given night with hardly any resistance.

But I knew this list was questionable when I saw Vince Carter and T-Mac got honorable mentions.

Vince Carter and T-Mac getting honorable mentions are better arguments to the biasness of these lists, as to the history of the game, than Kobe being #2 on the list. I think Kobe would be great in any era and deserves to be top 3 in the discussion of best SG's of all time, behind only Jordan and perhaps West.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
JrZyHuStLa
Posts: 25677
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3/12/2008  1:02 PM
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by JrZyHuStLa:
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by JrZyHuStLa:
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by DarkKnicks:

Reggie does not deserve to be the IMO, but maybe I just hate him so much for killing us everytime he could.

Reggie made his name playing the Knicks. He was pretty darn good for a dude that couldn't do anything but catch and shoot. Houston still owns him.



Eny, you have too many posts for me to not assume your intellectual sarcasm.

Houston doesn't own a thing besides a pair of surgically repaired knees. I'm not big on Allan Houston as most of the guys on this forum are. He was good, but on a totally different plateua compared to Reggie Miller. People give Houston too much credit because of his buzzer beater against Miami. The play was absolutely huge, I'm not denying that, but Reggie made a name for himself in clutch moments almost every time Indiana was going down to the wire. Yes, Miller was super one dimensional, but he MASTERED that single dimension to its maximum.

What are you talking about you psycho?

I'm refering to the Series where Houston made Reggie his bitch......it's during the same finals run. I ****ing hate Allan Houston. That is well documented. I masterbate to my hatred of Allan Houston!!!! At least his game.

And yeah reggie made a name for being clutch against the New York Knicks.....am i missing something?

So Houston made Reggie his bitch for one series, what's your point ?



What was the point of you commenting on my post then?

I guess you're more concerned about Houston owning Miller for one series while I'm more concerned about Reggie owning the Knicks for a decade. Of course what you said holds more weight since Knick fans will do anything in their power to hold on to the last drop of a positive thought due to the team's current state.
EnySpree
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3/12/2008  1:16 PM


Take that Jrzyhustla.
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JrZyHuStLa
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3/12/2008  1:20 PM


Flawless point of view.
EnySpree
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3/12/2008  1:26 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3240251&categoryId=2459788

Rick Carlile(sp?)....named Dumars #4 on the Greatest list......wtf?
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bitty41
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3/12/2008  1:27 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by bitty41:
Posted by purple012870:

How is Kobe being # 2 crazy??? What hasn't he done? Multiple championships...check. Money at crunch time...check. 1st to 20k points....check. Lock down defender...check.

Awards
10-time NBA All-Star
9-time All-NBA Selection
7-time All-Defensive Selection
3-time NBA Champion
2-time NBA All-Star MVP
2-time NBA Scoring Champion
1997 NBA Slam Dunk Champion
1996 Naismith Prep Player of the Year
1996-1997 All Rookie Second Team

It isn't the numbers that I'm debating its about the eras, level of competition, and how the game was played in past periods as opposed to now. What I hate about alot of current basketball analysts is that they seem to be lacking a sense of history about the game of basketball. Its is if the so-called experts either started watching the game in the late 80's or they have just choosen to forget about how the game use to be played. I don't care if people say this is biased but outside of Shaq in his prime and Tim Duncan I'm hard pressed to say anyone in the current league is ranked in the top 5 at any position. Even Shaq I would say is around number 7 or even lower for his position. This is coming from someone who wasn't even born when most of these guys were playing but watching old videos, even ESPN classic games, and talking to older basketball fans the game has changed for the worst. Its more geared to hyping a super star then making players actually fight their way to the top. Guys like Lebron, Kobe, Jamal Crawford LOL, etc can drop 50 points on a given night with hardly any resistance.

But I knew this list was questionable when I saw Vince Carter and T-Mac got honorable mentions.

Vince Carter and T-Mac getting honorable mentions are better arguments to the biasness of these lists, as to the history of the game, than Kobe being #2 on the list. I think Kobe would be great in any era and deserves to be top 3 in the discussion of best SG's of all time, behind only Jordan and perhaps West.

See I disagree with that no way would he dominate the way he does in today's game in the past. If you look at old clips of the past NBA you would see how much more physical the game was and you would also see how everynight these guys were challenged. Last season when Kobe went on that scoring streak I saw game after game where teams basically just laid down and allowed him to run wild with no effort to stop him or even try to hinder him. I think those team's effort is indicative of the apathetic attitude that a lot player's in today's game take. With all this being said Kobe wouldn't be a scrub or even an average player but imo he wouldn't be ranked up there with the greats if he was playing 15 years ago.
Nalod
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3/12/2008  1:30 PM

I think Oscar would be top notch as training techniques have improved and I think greatness would assimilate. The games was different back in the day with greater ball movement but Oscar's body type might have been more of a lebron type and if cultivated might have done some MORE things with it.

I Also think Clyde could have made the list. At 6-4 he was not really pure point in the traditional sense. He was a true all around player.
JrZyHuStLa
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3/12/2008  1:31 PM
Posted by bitty41:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by bitty41:
Posted by purple012870:

How is Kobe being # 2 crazy??? What hasn't he done? Multiple championships...check. Money at crunch time...check. 1st to 20k points....check. Lock down defender...check.

Awards
10-time NBA All-Star
9-time All-NBA Selection
7-time All-Defensive Selection
3-time NBA Champion
2-time NBA All-Star MVP
2-time NBA Scoring Champion
1997 NBA Slam Dunk Champion
1996 Naismith Prep Player of the Year
1996-1997 All Rookie Second Team

It isn't the numbers that I'm debating its about the eras, level of competition, and how the game was played in past periods as opposed to now. What I hate about alot of current basketball analysts is that they seem to be lacking a sense of history about the game of basketball. Its is if the so-called experts either started watching the game in the late 80's or they have just choosen to forget about how the game use to be played. I don't care if people say this is biased but outside of Shaq in his prime and Tim Duncan I'm hard pressed to say anyone in the current league is ranked in the top 5 at any position. Even Shaq I would say is around number 7 or even lower for his position. This is coming from someone who wasn't even born when most of these guys were playing but watching old videos, even ESPN classic games, and talking to older basketball fans the game has changed for the worst. Its more geared to hyping a super star then making players actually fight their way to the top. Guys like Lebron, Kobe, Jamal Crawford LOL, etc can drop 50 points on a given night with hardly any resistance.

But I knew this list was questionable when I saw Vince Carter and T-Mac got honorable mentions.

Vince Carter and T-Mac getting honorable mentions are better arguments to the biasness of these lists, as to the history of the game, than Kobe being #2 on the list. I think Kobe would be great in any era and deserves to be top 3 in the discussion of best SG's of all time, behind only Jordan and perhaps West.

See I disagree with that no way would he dominate the way he does in today's game in the past. If you look at old clips of the past NBA you would see how much more physical the game was and you would also see how everynight these guys were challenged. Last season when Kobe went on that scoring streak I saw game after game where teams basically just laid down and allowed him to run wild with no effort to stop him or even try to hinder him. I think those team's effort is indicative of the apathetic attitude that a lot player's in today's game take. With all this being said Kobe wouldn't be a scrub or even an average player but imo he wouldn't be ranked up there with the greats if he was playing 15 years ago.

That's a bunch of crap. The closest thing to MJ would dominate MJ's era himself.
islesfan
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3/12/2008  1:35 PM
Posted by bitty41:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by bitty41:
Posted by purple012870:

How is Kobe being # 2 crazy??? What hasn't he done? Multiple championships...check. Money at crunch time...check. 1st to 20k points....check. Lock down defender...check.

Awards
10-time NBA All-Star
9-time All-NBA Selection
7-time All-Defensive Selection
3-time NBA Champion
2-time NBA All-Star MVP
2-time NBA Scoring Champion
1997 NBA Slam Dunk Champion
1996 Naismith Prep Player of the Year
1996-1997 All Rookie Second Team

It isn't the numbers that I'm debating its about the eras, level of competition, and how the game was played in past periods as opposed to now. What I hate about alot of current basketball analysts is that they seem to be lacking a sense of history about the game of basketball. Its is if the so-called experts either started watching the game in the late 80's or they have just choosen to forget about how the game use to be played. I don't care if people say this is biased but outside of Shaq in his prime and Tim Duncan I'm hard pressed to say anyone in the current league is ranked in the top 5 at any position. Even Shaq I would say is around number 7 or even lower for his position. This is coming from someone who wasn't even born when most of these guys were playing but watching old videos, even ESPN classic games, and talking to older basketball fans the game has changed for the worst. Its more geared to hyping a super star then making players actually fight their way to the top. Guys like Lebron, Kobe, Jamal Crawford LOL, etc can drop 50 points on a given night with hardly any resistance.

But I knew this list was questionable when I saw Vince Carter and T-Mac got honorable mentions.

Vince Carter and T-Mac getting honorable mentions are better arguments to the biasness of these lists, as to the history of the game, than Kobe being #2 on the list. I think Kobe would be great in any era and deserves to be top 3 in the discussion of best SG's of all time, behind only Jordan and perhaps West.

See I disagree with that no way would he dominate the way he does in today's game in the past. If you look at old clips of the past NBA you would see how much more physical the game was and you would also see how everynight these guys were challenged. Last season when Kobe went on that scoring streak I saw game after game where teams basically just laid down and allowed him to run wild with no effort to stop him or even try to hinder him. I think those team's effort is indicative of the apathetic attitude that a lot player's in today's game take. With all this being said Kobe wouldn't be a scrub or even an average player but imo he wouldn't be ranked up there with the greats if he was playing 15 years ago.

Kobe hasn't exactly been the type to back down when challenged on the basketball court. I really think you're downplaying his toughness, which I think it very much old school.

Who would you rank ahead of him?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Panos
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3/12/2008  2:09 PM
Posted by bitty41:


It isn't the numbers that I'm debating its about the eras, level of competition, and how the game was played in past periods as opposed to now. What I hate about alot of current basketball analysts is that they seem to be lacking a sense of history about the game of basketball. Its is if the so-called experts either started watching the game in the late 80's or they have just choosen to forget about how the game use to be played. I don't care if people say this is biased but outside of Shaq in his prime and Tim Duncan I'm hard pressed to say anyone in the current league is ranked in the top 5 at any position. Even Shaq I would say is around number 7 or even lower for his position. This is coming from someone who wasn't even born when most of these guys were playing but watching old videos, even ESPN classic games, and talking to older basketball fans the game has changed for the worst. Its more geared to hyping a super star then making players actually fight their way to the top. Guys like Lebron, Kobe, Jamal Crawford LOL, etc can drop 50 points on a given night with hardly any resistance.

But I knew this list was questionable when I saw Vince Carter and T-Mac got honorable mentions.

Bitty, its really hard to compare players from different eras, not only because the players have evolved (somewhat due to training methods, technology, ?steroids?, etc.) but also because the game and the rules have changed too. Even from the nineties till now. You can't D-up as physically as you used to. And how about that stupid no-charge arc under the basket? Not disagreeing with you, just throwing more stuff out there.
bitty41
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3/12/2008  2:27 PM
Kobe hasn't exactly been the type to back down when challenged on the basketball court. I really think you're downplaying his toughness, which I think it very much old school.

Who would you rank ahead of him?

Kobe got hit a few times when he came into the league particularly when Chris Childs punched him LOL. Now if a player punched Kobe he would be lucky to play another game that season.

So I think you and I both could acknowledge that the league is not physical and that there are many teams who are on total cruise control *ahem* Knicks; so many times Kobe could drop 30 points without breaking a sweat. Between the ridiculous fouls that are called and just putting up shots Kobe has easily been able to achieve big numbers. Of course the NBA has always had scruby teams but at least in the past they still scrapped with the big name players.

One thing I will give him is that he brings it every single night and that one trait alone puts him head and shoulders above many players in this league and add that with his drive and arrogance it makes him a terrific player in this league.

Here's who I would rank above Kobe

1. MJ

2. Jerry West

3. George Gervin

4. Sam Jones

5. Oscar Roberston

6. Hal Greer

7. Pete Maravich

8. Kobe Bryant
TMS
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3/12/2008  2:45 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Oh I was entirely joking and wasn't even thinking about your thread but now I see why you thought I was.

sure u were Bonn.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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3/13/2008  7:03 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

Oh I was entirely joking and wasn't even thinking about your thread but now I see why you thought I was.

sure u were Bonn.

??? I honestly was. At first, I was going to put Nate, then I thought about Allan Houston, then I decided Jamal. If you don't believe me, fine. This is like the fifth thread where you've been defensive about your views of T-Mac when T-Mac wasn't even mentioned.


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 03-13-2008 07:04 AM]
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ESPN'S Top 10 SGs of All - Time !
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